Which team has been more successful?

[Hoofhearted]

May i also ask why we're picking one certain team? Wouldn't it be better research to include all the teams?

[*PhilHos*]

(03-09-2018, 09:07 AM)HuDey Wrote: Team B because they don’t crown a regular season champion.

And what was Team B crowned with? 

[fredtoast]

(03-09-2018, 01:19 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Will take the postseason wins because that is all anybody remembers anyhow. Team B

Nobody remembers post season games except the Super Bowl.

I know you can just google it too cheat, but you honestly can't tell me the other first round games the year the Bengals lost to the Chargers.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-09-2018, 11:22 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Nobody remembers post season games except the Super Bowl.

I know you can just google it too cheat, but you honestly can't tell me the other first round games the year the Bengals lost to the Chargers.

You can believe that fans of the teams that played in those games remember.

[fredtoast]

(03-09-2018, 12:03 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You can believe that fans of the teams that played in those games remember.

Yes.  And you can believe that fans of teams remember regular season games they played.

The claim that no one remembers anything but postseason games is 100% false.

[Shake n Blake]

Team "A" has been more successful in that stretch, but Team "A" has fans that haven't seen a playoff win in 27 years, so they're getting a little antsy to put it mildly. They've also kept the same tired HC and same miserable owner/GM for way too long. So I doubt team B's fans would want to trade places with team A's fans.

[fredtoast]

(03-09-2018, 12:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So I doubt team B's fans would want to trade places with team A's fans.

Maybe for just this one year.  But what about the prior 14?

[Shake n Blake]

(03-09-2018, 12:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Maybe for just this one year.  But what about the prior 14?

I'm talking permanently. Jags fans would not want to trade places now. Nor would they have wanted to trade places 5 years ago right in the thick of our playoff run. Not when it was explained to them that Marv is a perma coach who can't win a playoff game. Not after they watch a few interviews with Mike Brown and realize "that's the GM for life". They'd realize how shaky and unsustainable that little stretch was.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-08-2018, 07:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: As a fan which team would you rather have rooted for over the last 15 years.  Neither team has made it to the Super Bowl

Team "A"... 125-112-3 ... 5 losing seasons ... 7 playoff seasons ... 0-7 playoff record
Team "B"...  97-143-0  ... 9 losing seasons ... 3 playoff seasons ... 3-3 playoff record

This is still not quite clear enough for Team B. Did Team B make the conference championship one year r lose out before then each of the three playoff years?

If they made the conference championship, I'm picking Team B over Team A. But since I don't know if this is true or not, I haven't made my vote.

[fredtoast]

(03-09-2018, 12:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm talking permanently. Jags fans would not want to trade places now. Nor would they have wanted to trade places 5 years ago right in the thick of our playoff run. Not when it was explained to them that Marv is a perma coach who can't win a playoff game. Not after they watch a few interviews with Mike Brown and realize "that's the GM for life". They'd realize how shaky and unsustainable that little stretch was.

I strongly disagree.

Most NFL fans care about winning.  When another team is consistently winning a lot more games than them they don't really buy the argument that is so popular around here that "It is better to lose a lot more games than go to the playoffs with Marvin Lewis"

For 9 years from '08 to '16 the Jags had zero winning seasons and averaged LESS THAN 5 WINS PER YEAR.  There is no way in hell you could convince them that they were better off than the Bengals who were going to the playoffs 6 times.  No other fans in the league love hating their owner more than winning games.

[BengalChris]

Everyone does know that an 0-7 playoff record is the worst in NFL history, don't they?

Well if you didn't know that you know it now.

[Bengalholic]

(03-08-2018, 07:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: As a fan which team would you rather have rooted for over the last 15 years.  Neither team has made it to the Super Bowl

Team "A"... 125-112-3 ... 5 losing seasons ... 7 playoff seasons ... 0-7 playoff record
Team "B"...  97-143-0  ... 9 losing seasons ... 3 playoff seasons ... 3-3 playoff record

I agree that when taking everything into account, team A has been more successful overall during the past 15 years.

Now, using similar criteria that you applied to Team B...let's add a Team C:

106-134 -- 7 losing seasons -- 7 losing seasons -- 4 playoff seasons -- 3-4 playoff record -- 2 playoff wins over Team A

Which has been more successful overall compared to the other - A or C?

[Shake n Blake]

(03-09-2018, 12:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I strongly disagree.

Most NFL fans care about winning.  When another team is consistently winning a lot more games than them they don't really buy the argument that is so popular around here that "It is better to lose a lot more games than go to the playoffs with Marvin Lewis"

For 9 years from '08 to '16 the Jags had zero winning seasons and averaged LESS THAN 5 WINS PER YEAR.  There is no way in hell you could convince them that they were better off than the Bengals who were going to the playoffs 6 times.  No other fans in the league love hating their owner more than winning games.

Are we really "consistently winning a lot more games" than most teams? Outside of that 5 year stretch, how consistent has Marvin been?

8-8
8-8
11-5
8-8
7-9
4-11-1
10-6
4-12
6-9-1
7-9

That's our records outside of the 5 year stretch. More proof that the 5 year run was a fluke and not sustainable. Fans have good reason to not like Mike Brown. He's a giant anchor on this team. Even you and bfine have admitted as much. The man is a positivity-sucking black hole. Let Jags fans get familiar with that man + his history and let them know there's zero hope he'd ever sell. Then see how many would want to trade places. 

I have a feeling you'd be surprised. Outside of the Browns, if I were a fan of any other team, I'd feel more hopeful about seeing a championship in my lifetime. Even when we have the talent to make a deep run, we have a coach whose choking has reached legendary status, and Mike Brown won't spend to help Marv get over the top. It feels like a hopeless situation. 

[sandwedge]

(03-09-2018, 12:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I strongly disagree.

Most NFL fans care about winning.  When another team is consistently winning a lot more games than them they don't really buy the argument that is so popular around here that "It is better to lose a lot more games than go to the playoffs with Marvin Lewis"

For 9 years from '08 to '16 the Jags had zero winning seasons and averaged LESS THAN 5 WINS PER YEAR.  There is no way in hell you could convince them that they were better off than the Bengals who were going to the playoffs 6 times.  No other fans in the league love hating their owner more than winning games.

This is where you completely miss the boat. Team B and all the other franchises that don't win in regular season and lose in the 1st rd of the playoffs regularly, shit can the head coach that can't get it done. That is the amazing difference between Team A and the rest of the league! Nobody is ever going to fire Mike Brown, but Marvin can be fired and should have been. Being mediocre is standard operating procedure for this team and few on here.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-09-2018, 01:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Are we really "consistently winning a lot more games" than most teams? Outside of that 5 year stretch, how consistent has Marvin been?

8-8
8-8
11-5
8-8
7-9
4-11-1
10-6
4-12
6-9-1
7-9

That's our records outside of the 5 year stretch. More proof that the 5 year run was a fluke and not sustainable. Fans have good reason to not like Mike Brown. He's a giant anchor on this team. Even you and bfine have admitted as much. The man is a positivity-sucking black hole. Let Jags fans get familiar with that man + his history and let them know there's zero hope he'd ever sell. Then see how many would want to trade places. 

I have a feeling you'd be surprised. Outside of the Browns, if I were a fan of any other team, I'd feel more hopeful about seeing a championship in my lifetime. Even when we have the talent to make a deep run, we have a coach whose choking has reached legendary status, and Mike Brown won't spend to help Marv get over the top. It feels like a hopeless situation. 

Marvin teams outside of "the run" have been pretty consistent around the 7-to-8 win range. 50% of those seasons outside "the run" have been in that range.
In fact, the total win average across those 10 years is 7.4.

[Bengalholic]

(03-09-2018, 01:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Are we really "consistently winning a lot more games" than most teams? Outside of that 5 year stretch, how consistent has Marvin been?

8-8
8-8
11-5
8-8
7-9
4-11-1
10-6
4-12
6-9-1
7-9

That's our records outside of the 5 year stretch. More proof that the 5 year run was a fluke and not sustainable. Fans have good reason to not like Mike Brown. He's a giant anchor on this team. Even you and bfine have admitted as much. The man is a positivity-sucking black hole. Let Jags fans get familiar with that man + his history and let them know there's zero hope he'd ever sell. Then see how many would want to trade places. 

I have a feeling you'd be surprised. Outside of the Browns, if I were a fan of any other team, I'd feel more hopeful about seeing a championship in my lifetime. Even when we have the talent to make a deep run, we have a coach whose choking has reached legendary status, and Mike Brown won't spend to help Marv get over the top. It feels like a hopeless situation. 

The Marvin led Bengals have been middle of the pack during the regular season over the past 15 years:

Regular season wins: 7th in AFC - 14th in NFL. 
Total playoff games: 9th in AFC - 20th in NFL. 
Win % vs teams with winning season: 7th in AFC - 13th in NFL. 
Win % vs teams that made playoffs: 8th in AFC - 15th in NFL. 
AFC wins vs teams with winning season: 7th of 16. 
AFC wins vs teams that made playoffs: 8th of 16.

Overall, they've basically been extremely mediocre...not great, not terrible. 

[fredtoast]

(03-09-2018, 09:38 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: May i also ask why we're picking one certain team? Wouldn't it be better research to include all the teams?

I specifically picked these two teams to see how much fans weighed 3 playoff wins (with no Super Bowl appearances) against  50 extra regular season wins, 4 fewer losing seasons, and four more playoff appearances.

[fredtoast]

(03-09-2018, 01:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Outside of that 5 year stretch, how consistent has Marvin been?

That's our records outside of the 5 year stretch. More proof that the 5 year run was a fluke and not sustainable.

I have talked before about how silly it was to try and make an argument by claiming that a certain game or season never existed.  But trying to act like an entire one-third of a career never happened is just ridiculous.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-09-2018, 01:36 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The Marvin led Bengals have been middle of the pack during the regular season during the past 15 years:

Regular season wins: 7th in AFC - 14th in NFL. 
Total playoff games: 9th in AFC - 20th in NFL. 
Win % vs teams with winning season: 7th in AFC - 13th in NFL. 
Win % vs teams that made playoffs: 8th in AFC - 15th in NFL. 
AFC wins vs teams with winning season: 7th of 16. 
AFC wins vs teams that made playoffs: 8th of 16.

Overall, they've basically been extremely mediocre...not great, not terrible. 

Mediocre Merv is the most accurate moniker ever bestowed on any of the collection characters in this comedy of errors in the history of these boards.

[fredtoast]

(03-09-2018, 01:36 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The Marvin led Bengals have been middle of the pack during the regular season during the past 15 years:

Regular season wins: 7th in AFC - 14th in NFL. 
Total playoff games: 9th in AFC - 20th in NFL. 
Win % vs teams with winning season: 7th in AFC - 13th in NFL. 
Win % vs teams that made playoffs: 8th in AFC - 15th in NFL. 
AFC wins vs teams with winning season: 7th of 16. 
AFC wins vs teams that made playoffs: 8th of 16.

Overall, they've basically been extremely mediocre...not great, not terrible. 

This is a very accurate depiction of the Marvin Lewis era.  Although I would add a couple of stats that make them look a little better.

Total wins vs teams that made playoffs 12 of 32
Total wins vs teams that had winning record 6 of 32

I feel that Marvin deserves a lot of credit for attaining even these slightly above average results while handicapped by the worst owner in the league, but even I felt he should have been fired after last season.

But just because I felt he should have been fired I am not going to let people criticize him for things that are not true.