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(09-23-2019, 09:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Is this a time where we don't care about finding out the truth?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/bidens-ukraine-know-dont-know-185409553.html
Isn't this pretty much the same as Obama green lighting an investigation into Trump during the 2016 election? I get that one is using our agency and another is using a foreign agency but isn't the bottom line of seeking truth the same?
In before the peanut galley: I really haven't spent much time on this and there may be huge differences; I'm simply asking instead of defending.
Well, you've mentioned the major difference, which is obvious. But there are also many other differences. The other major one is that Trump's requests are out in the public and he is using his diplomatic authority to affect the political process. Obama specifically kept mum on the Trump investigation because of the refusal by McConnell and other Republicans to come out about it in a bipartisan way. Not wanting to tip the scales, Obama refused to make mention of it. Trump is doing this specifically to influence the election.
It should be noted here that the phone call in question was made the day after Mueller testified. It was fairly clear to Trump that there would not be any real consequences for the contacts his campaign team made with Russia in 2016, and now the day after that testimony he is reaching out for political help to a different foreign country. It may be coincidental in the timing, but there seems to be a trend.
Another big difference is that Obama ok'd an investigation based on findings from our intelligence community. The investigation into Biden is based on a conspiracy theory that doesn't make much sense and can be discredited fairly easily given that the prosecutor that was fired had world leaders from many countries demanding his head and Biden didn't have control over the resources Trump is claiming were threatened to be withheld.
Edit: This is also just explaining things, not trying to be snarky or anything. I've been listening to and reading some things on this all throughout the day.
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(09-23-2019, 09:16 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, you've mentioned the major difference, which is obvious. But there are also many other differences. The other major one is that Trump's requests are out in the public and he is using his diplomatic authority to affect the political process. Obama specifically kept mum on the Trump investigation because of the refusal by McConnell and other Republicans to come out about it in a bipartisan way. Not wanting to tip the scales, Obama refused to make mention of it. Trump is doing this specifically to influence the election.
It should be noted here that the phone call in question was made the day after Mueller testified. It was fairly clear to Trump that there would not be any real consequences for the contacts his campaign team made with Russia in 2016, and now the day after that testimony he is reaching out for political help to a different foreign country. It may be coincidental in the timing, but there seems to be a trend.
Another big difference is that Obama ok'd an investigation based on findings from our intelligence community. The investigation into Biden is based on a conspiracy theory that doesn't make much sense and can be discredited fairly easily given that the prosecutor that was fired had world leaders from many countries demanding his head and Biden didn't have control over the resources Trump is claiming were threatened to be withheld.
Edit: This is also just explaining things, not trying to be snarky or anything. I've been listening to and reading some things on this all throughout the day.
Nothing snarky in the reply.
So is Trump the one that made this inquiry to Ukraine public? If the answer is yes, then I can agree with your pointing to the other biggest difference (making it public), if the answer is no, then I don't buy the other biggest difference.
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(09-19-2019, 09:35 PM)jj22 Wrote: Breaking
It was an attempt to collude with Ukraine to attack Biden ahead of 2020.
Brazen after he got away with it with Russia.
I think this may be it for Trump.
That is an exceedingly optimistic take on the scenario haha.
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(09-23-2019, 09:16 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, you've mentioned the major difference, which is obvious. But there are also many other differences. The other major one is that Trump's requests are out in the public and he is using his diplomatic authority to affect the political process. Obama specifically kept mum on the Trump investigation because of the refusal by McConnell and other Republicans to come out about it in a bipartisan way. Not wanting to tip the scales, Obama refused to make mention of it. Trump is doing this specifically to influence the election.
It should be noted here that the phone call in question was made the day after Mueller testified. It was fairly clear to Trump that there would not be any real consequences for the contacts his campaign team made with Russia in 2016, and now the day after that testimony he is reaching out for political help to a different foreign country. It may be coincidental in the timing, but there seems to be a trend.
Another big difference is that Obama ok'd an investigation based on findings from our intelligence community. The investigation into Biden is based on a conspiracy theory that doesn't make much sense and can be discredited fairly easily given that the prosecutor that was fired had world leaders from many countries demanding his head and Biden didn't have control over the resources Trump is claiming were threatened to be withheld.
Edit: This is also just explaining things, not trying to be snarky or anything. I've been listening to and reading some things on this all throughout the day.
As of last month, we do not know if Obama started the investigation or knew about it in its earliest stages. Lindsey Graham stated last month that he wants to subpoena Obama to find out when he was first told of the investigation. So at that level, it's significantly different, as far as we currently know.
There's also a difference between having your own intelligence agencies investigate an issue and asking another country to, as well as Trump allegedly suggesting money he was withholding would be released if the investigation occurred.
With regards to the charges, the FBI responded immediately to the release of hacked emails and a subsequent alert from the Austrian government that George Papadopoulos had told one of their officials that he was contacted by Russians about the emails well before their release, and Trump himself was never directly being investigated until he fired Comey a year later. In the Biden situation, it is being suggested without any evidence that Biden called for a Ukrainian prosecutor to be let go to prevent an investigation into a company his son worked for, though many leaders were calling for this guy to be let go because he tried to bribe companies by saying he wouldn't investigate them if they paid him. Also, the government still investigated the company for a year after the guy was let go.
So one is a case of the FBI investigating a direct attack on the US election after receiving credible evidence from an ally while the other is a President allegedly bribing a country to investigate a baseless claim against a political opponent.
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(09-23-2019, 09:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nothing snarky in the reply.
So is Trump the one that made this inquiry to Ukraine public? If the answer is yes, then I can agree with your pointing to the other biggest difference (making it public), if the answer is no, then I don't buy the other biggest difference.
Trump sent Rudy to the Ukraine to get them to look into this. That was out in the open long before this phone call was known about. The phone call is seen as more egregious because it was head of state to head of state.
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(09-23-2019, 09:49 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: As of last month, we do not know if Obama started the investigation or knew about it in its earliest stages. Lindsey Graham stated last month that he wants to subpoena Obama to find out when he was first told of the investigation. So at that level, it's significantly different, as far as we currently know.
There's also a difference between having your own intelligence agencies investigate an issue and asking another country to, as well as Trump allegedly suggesting money he was withholding would be released if the investigation occurred.
With regards to the charges, the FBI responded immediately to the release of hacked emails and a subsequent alert from the Austrian government that George Papadopoulos had told one of their officials that he was contacted by Russians about the emails well before their release, and Trump himself was never directly being investigated until he fired Comey a year later. In the Biden situation, it is being suggested without any evidence that Biden called for a Ukrainian prosecutor to be let go to prevent an investigation into a company his son worked for, though many leaders were calling for this guy to be let go because he tried to bribe companies by saying he wouldn't investigate them if they paid him. Also, the government still investigated the company for a year after the guy was let go.
So one is a case of the FBI investigating a direct attack on the US election after receiving credible evidence from an ally while the other is a President allegedly bribing a country to investigate a baseless claim against a political opponent.
Thanks for expounding. I was lazy and didn't want to type things up in more detail.
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(09-23-2019, 10:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Trump sent Rudy to the Ukraine to get them to look into this. That was out in the open long before this phone call was known about. The phone call is seen as more egregious because it was head of state to head of state.
Well if Trump made the details public then IMO, it is a worse infraction than soliciting intel from a foreign agency.
I must admit I don't follow how a head of state talking to a head of state makes it more ergergious.
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If Trump did something worthy of impeachment then he should be impeached. I've said for years though, it had best be definitive or it's not going to stick and will only help Trump win re-election. They should absolutely release the information regarding the complaint as requested.
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(09-23-2019, 10:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well if Trump made the details public then IMO, it is a worse infraction than soliciting intel from a foreign agency.
I must admit I don't follow how a head of state talking to a head of state makes it more ergergious.
When you have a head of state trying to tell the head of state of a smaller country that is very reliant on the aid of the larger country to do something, directly, it is a bit more impactful and carries less deniability than sending a lackey over.
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(09-23-2019, 09:49 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: That is an exceedingly optimistic take on the scenario haha.
True. Prior to 2016 a man getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar twice (colluding with a foreign state to attack America and her citizens to win election/reelection) would have been treacherous and impeachable behavior.
In 2019 it's celebrated by about 40 million "Americans".
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If you guys are still looking to Trump defenders to stand up for America, you just haven't been paying much attention the last 3 years. His defenders and supporters have long turned on this country. The only way to bring them back to some sort of patriotism (even if it's based off of fake news) is to mention black athletes kneeling.
Anyway, Pompeo is now involved as it's being reported that he set up the illegal meetings between Rudi and Ukraine.
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(09-24-2019, 12:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: When you have a head of state trying to tell the head of state of a smaller country that is very reliant on the aid of the larger country to do something, directly, it is a bit more impactful and carries less deniability than sending a lackey over.
So your saying speaking directly with another Head of State makes it harder to lie about your intentions?
But I get it. If Trump made his investigation of these Biden matters public for personal gain then he should be held accountable.
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So what I gather from those defending Trump in this is that they are fine with it because Trump didn't publicize it? He wasn't the one who outed himself?
Like a criminal would publicize their attempted or committed crime....
It's getting to the point these excuses are more reflective on his defenders and their "love for the country" more so than Trump who we know is all about himself.
History won't be kind to these Americans when the books are wrote.
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DJT can't even keep up with his own lies.
He's tripping over himself to cover this up.
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(09-24-2019, 02:23 PM)jj22 Wrote: https://www.msnbc.com/andrea-mitchell-reports/watch/trump-confirms-withholding-aid-from-ukraine-claims-he-did-not-ask-for-quid-pro-quo-69753413793?cid=sm_npd_ms_tw_ma
(09-24-2019, 02:43 PM)GMDino Wrote: DJT can't even keep up with his own lies.
He's tripping over himself to cover this up.
It's fascinating because he keeps admitting to everything and then scrambles to explain why it was actually innocent.
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