Who Won The Debate?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Who Won The Debate?

The person who won the debate tonight will be the one who continues on with his or her campaign like nothing had happened while the other will be complaining about how he or she wasn't treated fairly or whatever.

If both complain or both don't, then it's a draw.

As for who really lost?

The American People.

[Belsnickel]

I have seen more moderate and liberal sources claiming it for Clinton, and some of the right leaning sources claiming it for Trump. From the bits that I have seen and some of the analyses from foreign sources, I would say Clinton came out on top. Some people have said that debates don't matter, and I usually agree with that. They only result in a 1-2 point swing if anything. But this year, that could mean a lot.

[Bengalzona]

I won the debates.... because I did not watch that train wreck.

[GMDino]

(09-27-2016, 07:47 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have seen more moderate and liberal sources claiming it for Clinton, and some of the right leaning sources claiming it for Trump. From the bits that I have seen and some of the analyses from foreign sources, I would say Clinton came out on top. Some people have said that debates don't matter, and I usually agree with that. They only result in a 1-2 point swing if anything. But this year, that could mean a lot.

She remained calmer, got in a couple zingers and tried to bait him into acting the fool.

Fortunately with Trump it isn't an act.

She lied about the trade agreements, he lied about everything.  Heck he brought up her deleted emails, holt asked her about her deleted emails, she answered the question directly (albeit by glossing over her "mistake") and Trump tweeted after that there was nothing about her emails brought up during the debate.  

[6andcounting]

(09-27-2016, 01:04 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Who Won The Debate?

The person who won the debate tonight will be the one who continues on with his or her campaign like nothing had happened while the other will be complaining about how he or she wasn't treated fairly or whatever.

If both complain or both don't, then it's a draw.

As for who really lost?

The American People.

I know the questions to single candidates are largely follow up questions based on what they say, so the number of questions and their level of difficulty won't be even, but does Trump have a legit gripe at the lopsidedness?


Joint Questions:

why are you a better choice than your opponent to create the kinds of jobs that will put more money into the pockets of American works?

Secretary Clinton, you’re calling for a tax increase on the wealthiest Americans. I’d like you to further defend that. And, Mr. Trump, you’re calling for tax cuts for the wealthy. I’d like you to defend that.

Race has been a big issue in this campaign, and one of you is going to have to bridge a very wide and bitter gap.
So how do you heal the divide?

Our institutions are under cyber attack, and our secrets are being stolen. So my question is, who’s behind it? And how do we fight it?

I’ll ask this to both of you. Tell us specifically how you would prevent homegrown attacks by American citizens,

On nuclear weapons, President Obama reportedly considered changing the nation’s longstanding policy on first use. Do you support the current policy?

are you willing to accept the outcome as the will of the voters?

Trump Directed Commentary & Questions:

You’ve talked about creating 25 million jobs, and you’ve promised to bring back millions of jobs for Americans. How are you going to bring back the industries that have left this country for cheaper labor overseas? How, specifically, are you going to tell American manufacturers that you have to come back?

Mr. Trump, we’re talking about the burden that Americans have to pay, yet you have not released your tax returns. And the reason nominees have released their returns for decades is so that voters will know if their potential president owes money to — who he owes it to and any business conflicts. Don’t Americans have a right to know if there are any conflicts of interest?

The IRS says an audit of your taxes — you’re perfectly free to release your taxes during an audit. And so the question, does the public’s right to know outweigh your personal…

Stop-and-frisk was ruled unconstitutional in New York, because it largely singled out black and Hispanic young men. The argument is that it’s a form of racial profiling.

Mr. Trump, for five years, you perpetuated a false claim that the nation’s first black president was not a natural-born citizen. You questioned his legitimacy. In the last couple of weeks, you acknowledged what most Americans have accepted for years: The president was born in the United States. Can you tell us what took you so long?
I will let you respond. It’s important. But I just want to get the answer here. The birth certificate was produced in 2011. You’ve continued to tell the story and question the president’s legitimacy in 2012, ’13, ’14, ’15…

Mr. Trump, a lot of these are judgment questions. You had supported the war in Iraq before the invasion. Why is your judgment better

Mr. Trump, this year Secretary Clinton became the first woman nominated for president by a major party. Earlier this month, you said she doesn’t have, quote, “a presidential look.” She’s standing here right now. What did you mean by that?

Clinton Directed Commentary & Questions:

he also raised the issue of your e-mails. Do you want to respond to that?

Secretary Clinton, last week, you said we’ve got to do everything possible to improve policing, to go right at implicit bias. Do you believe that police are implicitly biased against black people?

[CKwi88]

If you like (Trump's) style, Trump won.

If you like substance, Hillary won.


Hillary showed what everyone already knows. She's a better politician. She was better prepared, baited Trump into going off the rails, avoided the big gaffe, and had an all around more "presidential" showing.

But like Matt said, it doesn't make a difference to (most of) the American people.

[GMDino]

(09-27-2016, 09:01 AM)6andcounting Wrote: I know the questions to single candidates are largely follow up questions based on what they say, so the number of questions and their level of difficulty won't be even, but does Trump have a legit gripe at the lopsidedness?  


Joint Questions:

why are you a better choice than your opponent to create the kinds of jobs that will put more money into the pockets of American works?

Secretary Clinton, you’re calling for a tax increase on the wealthiest Americans. I’d like you to further defend that. And, Mr. Trump, you’re calling for tax cuts for the wealthy. I’d like you to defend that.

Race has been a big issue in this campaign, and one of you is going to have to bridge a very wide and bitter gap.
So how do you heal the divide?

Our institutions are under cyber attack, and our secrets are being stolen. So my question is, who’s behind it? And how do we fight it?

I’ll ask this to both of you. Tell us specifically how you would prevent homegrown attacks by American citizens,

On nuclear weapons, President Obama reportedly considered changing the nation’s longstanding policy on first use. Do you support the current policy?

are you willing to accept the outcome as the will of the voters?

Trump Directed Commentary & Questions:

You’ve talked about creating 25 million jobs, and you’ve promised to bring back millions of jobs for Americans. How are you going to bring back the industries that have left this country for cheaper labor overseas? How, specifically, are you going to tell American manufacturers that you have to come back?

Mr. Trump, we’re talking about the burden that Americans have to pay, yet you have not released your tax returns. And the reason nominees have released their returns for decades is so that voters will know if their potential president owes money to — who he owes it to and any business conflicts. Don’t Americans have a right to know if there are any conflicts of interest?

The IRS says an audit of your taxes — you’re perfectly free to release your taxes during an audit. And so the question, does the public’s right to know outweigh your personal…

Stop-and-frisk was ruled unconstitutional in New York, because it largely singled out black and Hispanic young men. The argument is that it’s a form of racial profiling.

Mr. Trump, for five years, you perpetuated a false claim that the nation’s first black president was not a natural-born citizen. You questioned his legitimacy. In the last couple of weeks, you acknowledged what most Americans have accepted for years: The president was born in the United States. Can you tell us what took you so long?
I will let you respond. It’s important. But I just want to get the answer here. The birth certificate was produced in 2011. You’ve continued to tell the story and question the president’s legitimacy in 2012, ’13, ’14, ’15…

Mr. Trump, a lot of these are judgment questions. You had supported the war in Iraq before the invasion. Why is your judgment better

Mr. Trump, this year Secretary Clinton became the first woman nominated for president by a major party. Earlier this month, you said she doesn’t have, quote, “a presidential look.” She’s standing here right now. What did you mean by that?

Clinton Directed Commentary & Questions:

he also raised the issue of your e-mails. Do you want to respond to that?

Secretary Clinton, last week, you said we’ve got to do everything possible to improve policing, to go right at implicit bias. Do you believe that police are implicitly biased against black people?

I suppose on how low someone set the bar for Trump.

I'd say I'd base it more on their answers than the questions.

[GMDino]

(09-27-2016, 09:01 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: If you like (Trump's) style, Trump won.

If you like substance, Hillary won.


Hillary showed what everyone already knows. She's a better politician. She was better prepared, baited Trump into going off the rails, avoided the big gaffe, and had an all around more "presidential" showing.

But like Matt said, it doesn't make a difference to (most of) the American people.

You are right...and that's the shame of it.  

[BmorePat87]

Hands down Hillary. Trump started off strong by remaining calm, but Hillary was prepared. She set up bait after bait and he took it. He frequently went on rants often unrelated to the question. If you are a Trump fan, this is what you love about him. You are also this angry. If you are not a Trump fan, it's hard to compare the two and suggest they looked equally Presidential.

He messed up by saying it was "just good business" for him to root for the recession. It was also a blunder to say he's "really smart" if he pays a 0% tax rate. He also shouldn't have responded to charges that he ripped off people he hired with "maybe he did a bad job". He was desperate at the end and began to attack Hillary for being "mean" and "nasty" and suggested he should, but wouldn't, mention Bill's infidelity. He was smart not to, that wouldn't have gone over well with women.

Hillary did a good job at responding to his claims that she didn't have enough stamina or the right temperament. She missed, however, in really making him look dumb. She criticized his positions as being poor, but she should have hit him on the fact that they're often lacking any depth. If she forces him to actually give more, he will come off looking unknowledgeable, so unprepared. She needs to be more forceful. Expose how ridiculous he is to average Americans.

[BmorePat87]

People will criticize Lester Holt, but he did what he had to do. The best exchange was:

LH: Sec. Clinton made history as the first woman nominated by a major party. What did you mean when you said she "doesn't have a presidential look"?

DT: I didn't say that, I said she doesn't have the stamina

LH: We have the quote right here

[GMDino]

(09-27-2016, 10:13 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: People will criticize Lester Holt, but he did what he had to do. The best exchange was:

LH: Sec. Clinton made history as the first woman nominated by a major party. What did you mean when you said she "doesn't have a presidential look"?

DT: I didn't say that, I said she doesn't have the stamina

LH: We have the quote right here

Holt stated at the beginning it would be a question with two minutes each to answer and then a discussion.  People who wanted him to shut one or the other off must have missed that part.

Also presenting actual quotes and facts to Trump is being deemed unfair by his supporters.

[Benton]

(09-27-2016, 10:09 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote:   It was also a blunder to say he's "really smart" if he pays a 0% tax rate. He also shouldn't have responded to charges that he ripped off people he hired with "maybe he did a bad job".

Agreed.

Saying tax returns don't matter (when the overwhelming majority of voters file tax returns) and saying not paying any taxes makes him smart was stepping toward the out of touch air that's going to distance some people. Same with his response to not paying people; anybody who's ever been ripped off by a boss probably wasn't excited by that response.

As to the OP, I thought Hillary did well. She didn't get frustrated by the constant jabs when she was talking. Her answers were all on script. And I thought she did well at the end with the comment about being prepared.

Trump came off like a business guy, which isn't bad, but he seemed clueless with some of his answers. He made a good point talking about being trillions in debt but having bad roads. He could have earned some points by saying he'd fix road funding allocations (which are a big problem of why bridges are falling apart in some places, but we blacktop the same roads year after year), but instead just talked about the debt.

The loser last night was me, though. Not only did I watch it (after the first 30 minutes or so, got home late), I tried the drinking game. "Emails" and "debt" had me chugging Deschutes.

[*PhilHos*]

Neither won. IMO, the winner of the debate is the one who convinces more independents and supporters of their opponent's supporters to vote for them. I don't see anyone changing their vote. If you were going to vote for Trump or Hillary or neither before the debate, it'll still be the same afterwards.

As to their performance, I think Trump came off as a bully and Hillary came off as condescending. Neither one truly answered the questions asked (which is typical of every politician) but Hillary did a better job of masking the fact that she wasn't really answering the question asked.

Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk

[Belsnickel]

(09-27-2016, 11:26 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Neither won. IMO, the winner of the debate is the one who convinces more independents and supporters of their opponent's supporters to vote for them. I don't see anyone changing their vote. If you were going to vote for Trump or Hillary or neither before the debate, it'll still be the same afterwards.

As to their performance, I think Trump came off as a bully and Hillary came off as condescending. Neither one truly answered the questions asked (which is typical of every politician) but Hillary did a better job of masking the fact that she wasn't really answering the question asked.

Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk

Yeah, the word salads from Trump were a little cringe worthy.

[GMDino]

(09-27-2016, 12:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, the word salads from Trump were a little cringe worthy.

"little"?

[*wildcats forever*]

(09-27-2016, 12:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: "little"?

I'm with ya on this. A little more than cringe worthy was what I saw. I just don't think Trump is a quality debater mostly because of his sarcasm. It totally dilutes his POV, and w/o details to support whatever plan he's fumbling to articulate, I doubt if many know what he'll do about anything. My opinion is that he would do well not to debate again.

[GMDino]

(09-27-2016, 12:23 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: I'm with ya on this. A little more than cringe worthy was what I saw. I just don't think Trump is a quality debater mostly because of his sarcasm. It totally dilutes his POV, and w/o details to support whatever plan he's fumbling to articulate, I doubt if many know what he'll do about anything. My opinion is that he would do well not to debate again.

I was saying at work today that his style of improv probably works very well when he is in charge (board meetings) or among people who are his equals in the business world.  Small groups where he may not get questioned much.

In general though that kind of extraneous speaking is bad during debates unless you are very good and very in control.

He is neither.

[Belsnickel]

One time, just one time, I'd like to see someone take a candidate to school on the budget stuff. What I mean by this is that every candidate, but especially those with a business background, make comments to the effect of running the government like a business and all of that. It can't be done. Absolutely, without any wiggle room, can't. We see this sort of commentary come up from people, and candidates, on a regular basis and I'd just like someone to come in there and lay it out for them.

Being able to be under budget in a business is a very, very different thing than being able to do it in a government. I say this as someone with experience budgeting in both corporate and government entities. Which is, of course, why this is easily one of my biggest pet peeves with politicians. Unrealistic fiscal positions are shoved out there because the majority of the electorate are ignorant to the mechanics of it all, and they want to be ignorant, and the politicians want them to be ignorant because otherwise the people would wake up to their bull shit.

Been watching some clips from last night and had to say this.

/rant

[GMDino]

(09-27-2016, 12:34 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: One time, just one time, I'd like to see someone take a candidate to school on the budget stuff. What I mean by this is that every candidate, but especially those with a business background, make comments to the effect of running the government like a business and all of that. It can't be done. Absolutely, without any wiggle room, can't. We see this sort of commentary come up from people, and candidates, on a regular basis and I'd just like someone to come in there and lay it out for them.

Being able to be under budget in a business is a very, very different thing than being able to do it in a government. I say this as someone with experience budgeting in both corporate and government entities. Which is, of course, why this is easily one of my biggest pet peeves with politicians. Unrealistic fiscal positions are shoved out there because the majority of the electorate are ignorant to the mechanics of it all, and they want to be ignorant, and the politicians want them to be ignorant because otherwise the people would wake up to their bull shit.

Been watching some clips from last night and had to say this.

/rant

I'd be curios to your take that we should run it more like a household:

You have X amount of income and have to figure out how to budget it over the month / year.

Sometimes something happens you didn't budget for (new roof) so you have to spend over your budget and then figure a way to either get in more income or pay it off as quickly as possible.

No one wants to run a deficit, but you also have to take care of what you have and occasionally (as this isn't a perfect world) you get surprised and have to go over your budget.

[treee]

(09-27-2016, 12:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, the word salads from Trump were a little cringe worthy.

The cyber, of which the security is very important.