Who could have imagined?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 09:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes I do.

The rise in crime rate is evidence.

Now hit me with your ambush, I'm sure it will be amusing.

[GMDino]

(12-02-2020, 04:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Everybody just going to gloss over this math error?

Fake news.  Those are alternate facts.



All seriousness aside that was boneheaded but my contention that saying something went up "X" % makes it seem a lot worse then giving the number of times it happened.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2020, 09:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I didn't rely on anecdotal evidence, I bolstered my position with self proclaimed anecdotal evidence.  Not the same thing, but you're being intentionally dishonest, as usual. 

I posted a direct quote where you said you were relying on anecdotal evidnce.

And "self proclaimed" anecdotal evidence is still 100% anecdotal evidence.  If not please provide some reference to this definition to support your claim that it is not.

(12-02-2020, 09:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Also as usual you don't include the whole post in which I explain that GM's anecdotal evidence clearly has multiple interpretations,

You claim that there are other possible interpretations does not disprove the clear implication of this quote "Police are gone" right after saying "fewer police are not the answer".

See:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-minneapolis-police-stops/

As protests over the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis continue across the U.S., policing data from that city show one particularly stark change in behavior: a precipitous drop in the number of traffic stops.

The department has been making an average of 80% fewer traffic stops each week since May 25, the day of Floyd’s death,

“Suspicious person” stops, those outside the vehicle context that involve “someone who does not belong, appears out of place, or whose actions are suspect,” were down 39% since May 25. 

[BmorePat87]

(12-02-2020, 09:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: An officer murdered a man, not officers.  Unless you're in to group responsibility, which I would hope you are not.

They’re facing charges for aiding and abetting for sitting there and not stopping it. I don’t think my choice of words was flawed.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 09:45 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: They’re facing charges for aiding and abetting for sitting there and not stopping it. I don’t think my choice of words was flawed.

This has been discussed.  The main suspect was a training officer, the observers were not.  I suppose you're now advocating for guilty until proven innocent, in which case please let me know.  Although I doubt you'd like the result.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2020, 09:33 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:

Now hit me with your ambush, I'm sure it will be amusing.

Below I have quoted sections from a much longer article.  I encourage anyone interested to read the entire piece.

What Can Mayors Do When the Police Stop Doing Their Jobs? — ProPublica

 In the spring of 2015, the death of Freddie Gray, 25, from injuries sustained in police custody brought demonstrators into the streets of Baltimore. The protests flared into rioting and looting. Soon afterward, the city’s chief prosecutor announced criminal charges against the officers involved in the arrest. The officers’ colleagues responded by pulling back on the job, doing only the bare minimum in the following weeks. In the resulting void, crews seized new drug corners and settled old scores. Homicides surged to record levels and case-closure rates plunged. “The police stopped doing their jobs, and let people **** up other people,” Carl Stokes, a former Democratic city councilor in Baltimore, told me last year. “Period. End of story.”


The protests of recent months, which reignited again in August following the shooting of a man by police in Kenosha, Wisconsin, as he leaned into his vehicle, have created real momentum for efforts to reform police departments. In many cities, though, rank-and-file police officers are greeting these efforts with an apparent pullback.



In Minneapolis, where the City Council approved legislation that would put up for referendum the wholesale replacement of the Police Department, residents have reported a notable decrease in police presence. 



In Atlanta, many officers started calling in sick in reaction to the 11 charges, including felony murder, filed against Garrett Rolfe on June 17. The former Atlanta police officer shot and killed Rayshard Brooks.  The interim police chief, Rodney Bryant, was left to plead with the officers on his force to do their job. 



Some academics who have studied the phenomenon in recent years see evidence that rising rates of violence in cities that have experienced high-profile incidents of police brutality are driven by police pullbacks. 


The shared recent experience of cities such as Baltimore, Atlanta, and Minneapolis points to one of the biggest challenges facing municipal leaders who are trying to hold police officers accountable for possible abuses of power and reform their police departments as a whole: the prospect that officers will pull back, staging a silent strike that, at best, leaves the city unable to contend with a spike in violence or, at worst, helps give rise to one.



“A lot of the onus for the violence falls right at the feet of law enforcement,” Gerald Griggs, the first vice president of the NAACP’s Atlanta branch, told the Post. “There are certain elements in our community that don’t take a break when the police take a break. You’re sworn to protect and defend, but when there are a few rogue [police] being held accountable you decide to shirk your responsibility?”



Federal investigations and de-policing did correlate with a sharp rise in violent crime in cities that had experienced what the study referred to as “viral” incidents: a high-profile, highly controversial instance of police using deadly force against a civilian — precisely what several cities are contending with today.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2020, 09:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   I suppose you're now advocating for guilty until proven innocent, in which case please let me know.  Although I doubt you'd like the result.

This is quite funny considering your position on people accused of crimes being released on bond before they are convicted.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2020, 07:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Thank you for that information, very interesting.  I still think you're ignoring the effect of the anti-law enforcement zeitgeist, which especially influences adolescents, as they are made aware that the punishments for their crimes are significantly less severe than for adults. It wouldn't shock me at all that local gangs are using them to commit these crimes for that exact reason.

This has always been the case.  I don't know why you are acting like it is part of a new "zeitgeist".

[Vas Deferens]

(12-02-2020, 01:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So feel free to disagree with the above, just don't ignore one of the most obvious reasons for this sudden, dramatic, spike in crime.

Agree that the “Anti-police” sentiment contributes to the underlying problem. But I’m steadfastly opposed to taxpayer resources be apportioned to the procurement of military vehicles and armaments by the local law enforcement instead of community gymnasiums and programs which simultaneously employ the community and enrich the lives of adolescents who literally have nothing else to do other than sit on the corner. I saw it in over the Rhine in the 90’s and I’m seeing the decades old effects of it in north philly today. Shit is ****** up. Everywhere. New desperately need a unified front when it comes to solving the inner city youth crisis at the bare minimum. We can move on to actual rehabilitation and reduction of recidivism after that. But we gotta start somewhere.

[BmorePat87]

(12-02-2020, 09:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This has been discussed.  The main suspect was a training officer, the observers were not.  I suppose you're now advocating for guilty until proven innocent, in which case please let me know.  Although I doubt you'd like the result.

I saw them on video sitting there and watching as he killed George Floyd, telling onlookers to back away as they called out that he was dying. 

Maybe it was a deep fake...

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-03-2020, 12:26 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I saw them on video sitting there and watching as he killed George Floyd, telling onlookers to back away as they called out that he was dying. 

Maybe it was a deep fake...

I respect your opinion, but this is a comment wholly ignorant of the actual law.  The other officers being charged with a crime is purely political and even Fred would agree if he was capable of being honest for a second.  The main officer deserves everything he gets, but given the circumstances the other officers were grossly overcharged.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-03-2020, 12:22 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Agree that the “Anti-police” sentiment contributes to the underlying problem.   But I’m steadfastly opposed to taxpayer resources be apportioned to the procurement of military vehicles and armaments by the local law enforcement instead of community gymnasiums and programs which simultaneously employ the community and enrich the lives of adolescents who literally have nothing else to do other than sit on the corner.    I saw it in over the Rhine in the 90’s and I’m seeing the decades old effects of it in north philly today.  Shit is ****** up.  Everywhere.  New desperately need a unified front when it comes to solving the inner city youth crisis at the bare minimum.  We can move on to actual rehabilitation and reduction of recidivism after that.  But we gotta start somewhere.

I don't think you realize that juvenile crime is largely focused on rehabilitation and has been for the vast majority of this century.  The "super predator" days of the 90's are a distant memory (except for Biden  ).  But you all keep talking about this issue like it's confined to juveniles. It's not.  The current crime spike in major cities is not driven by juvenile crime.  Also, the "inner city youth crisis" is nothing new.  Now explain why, despite that, crime has been dropping annually since the early 90's until recently.

[BmorePat87]

(12-03-2020, 01:18 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I respect your opinion, but this is a comment wholly ignorant of the actual law.  The other officers being charged with a crime is purely political and even Fred would agree if he was capable of being honest for a second.  The main officer deserves everything he gets, but given the circumstances the other officers were grossly overcharged.

I didn't suggest they were guilty prior to any trial. I characterized them as murderers because I watched a video of one kill a man while the others stood there and watched him die, failing to act. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-03-2020, 01:37 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I didn't suggest they were guilty prior to any trial. I characterized them as murderers because I watched a video of one kill a man while the others stood there and watched him die, failing to act. 

Which is exactly suggesting they are murderers prior to trial.  As I've stated, there's a lot of reasons those officers would/could assume that the field training officer, their superior, knew what he was doing.  While the FTO's actions were certainly egregious, I don't think a "reasonable person" would assume they would end in death, which would be necessary for them to convicted as they are charged.  As I've said from the beginning, the primary actor was appropriately charged.  The other officers were over charged to appease a mob.

[BmorePat87]

(12-03-2020, 01:53 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Which is exactly suggesting they are murderers prior to trial.  As I've stated, there's a lot of reasons those officers would/could assume that the field training officer, their superior, knew what he was doing.  While the FTO's actions were certainly egregious, I don't think a "reasonable person" would assume they would end in death, which would be necessary for them to convicted as they are charged.  As I've said from the beginning, the primary actor was appropriately charged.  The other officers were over charged to appease a mob.

I understand the difference between my opinions and the criminal justice system. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-03-2020, 02:09 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I understand the difference between my opinions and the criminal justice system. 

Fair enough, but your previous statements would lead a normal observer to believe otherwise.

[*michaelsean*]

(12-02-2020, 09:23 PM)BrownAssClown Wrote: Well let's go over some of the things that happen this year. Black jogger in Georgia gets rundown and shot to death by some good 'ol boys. White cop kneels on black man's neck for 8 plus minutes and black man dies. People of all races protest mostly peacefully, yet in some cities rioters and looters take to the streets. Trump declares himself the law and order president and things go from bad to worse, all the while a virus is sweeping the world and some states governor's take action by doing partial shutdowns to try to slow the spread of the virus. Trump worried about the stock market and his re-election chances takes to Twitter with tweets like "Liberate Michigan!" So you have a bunch of morons storm federal buildings in Michigan unmasked and then you have a group plotting to kidnap and kill the governor of Michigan(I guess DeWine here in Ohio is only facing impeachment instead of death by liberators. Perks of being a Republican I guess). I could go on and on, but if your looking for why there's a breakdown of law in order in this country, look no further than the commander and chief who doesn't have a goddamn clue on how to lead and loves to stir the pot and make it all about himself and his own self interest. January 20th can't get here fast enough; I'm not expecting Biden to be great, but at least Trump will be gone or at least out of power. Problem is Mr. Law and Order can cause a hell of a lot of damage until then and maybe after with all his rhetoric.

Over 500 white people were killed by black people in 2018. 189 black people were killed by white people.

Intraracial murders are almost even between black people and white people. Not percentages. Total number.

[fredtoast]

(12-03-2020, 11:37 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Over 500 white people were killed by black people in 2018. 189 black people were killed by white people.

Link?

Also zero of the black people who killed white people were not charged despite the DA seeing a video of the murder. That is what made the case so outrageous. 

[*michaelsean*]

(12-03-2020, 11:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Link?

Also zero of the black people who killed white people were not charged despite the DA seeing a video of the murder. That is what made the case so outrageous. 

I thought that was one of those things we didn't have to link because it's common knowledge.  Maybe not the exact numbers, but the idea.  Let me find it.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

Black people killed by white people was actually 234 not 189. I looked at several charts so probably confused two different years.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-03-2020, 11:58 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I thought that was one of those things we didn't have to link because it's common knowledge.  Maybe not the exact numbers, but the idea.  Let me find it.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

Black people killed by white people was actually 234 not 189.  I looked at several charts so probably confused two different years.

Now that you've supplied it the actual data will be ignored.  For some, "this is the way".