Why Is Trump's Wall A Bad Thing?

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2019, 02:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why, they don't work?

Once again I see you are having trouble absorbing anything except right wing speaking points.

When people say a border wall does not work, what they mean is that most undocumented immigrants don't come across the border where a wall is missing and that most drugs are not smuggled over areas where their is no wall.

But walls around private property do work because the other means of entrance are also secured with doors or gates.  So if private property owners on the border are concerned about people walking onto their land they are free to build a wall.  It will work for their purpose because they are not trying to stop immigrants from overstaying their Visa's or smuggling drugs through checkpoints.

Understand now?  I know my post was a good bit longer than your standard "talking points" but it takes a few more words to explain to people who really care about what is going on.

[Mike M (the other one)]

Let's ask Acosta how well those wall work, then send him to an area that doesn't have walls. See which one he would feel safer at standing on the US side.

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2019, 05:14 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Let's ask Acosta how well those wall work, then send him to an area that doesn't have walls. See which one he would feel safer at standing on the US side.

Why would he feel "unsafe".  Undocumented immigrants don't commit crimes against people at any higher rate than the current population of US citizens.

Don't believe all the Trump BS about what a huge crime threat undocumented immigrants are.  They are no more a threat to your dafety than your current fellow citizens.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(01-28-2019, 05:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why would he feel "unsafe".  Undocumented immigrants don't commit crimes against people at any higher rate than the current population of US citizens.

Don't believe all the Trump BS about what a huge crime threat undocumented immigrants are.  They are no more a threat to your dafety than your current fellow citizens.

Right Fred, crimes committed by Illegals against other Illegals is always reported no???
Or is it that those Illegals that's been the victim is too scared to report it to the authorities for fear of being deported themselves?
Also what rate are you comparing them against?
Last I looked Hispanics represented 32% of the Jail population, yet only make up 18.2% of Overall Population in US.
1 in 3 inmates are Hispanic.

Many of the other Illegals are committing fraud. I don't see USC's doing that on a daily basis do you?

[jj22]

Here's a little fun fact Trump Supporters don't know.

98% of crime in America is committed by Americans....

[jj22]

(01-28-2019, 05:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Right Fred, crimes committed by Illegals against other Illegals is always reported no???
Or is it that those Illegals that's been the victim is too scared to report it to the authorities for fear of being deported themselves?
Also what rate are you comparing them against?
Last I looked Hispanics represented 32% of the Jail population, yet only make up 18.2% of Overall Population in US.
1 in 3 inmates are Hispanic.

Many of the other Illegals are committing fraud. I don't see USC's doing that on a daily basis do you?

It is interesting that so many minorities are in prison. Hispanics represent so many with so little overall population. Blacks represent far more than 32% and are only 11% of the population.

The race with the most people Nearly 70% barely even touch these numbers. The question is how is this possible? There's answers, but people don't want to hear them.

The answer. Two people walk down the street. A black male on one side with a hoodie, a white male on the other side of the street with a hoodie. Both have weed, but which one do you think the cops will pull over and question? And that's why you see so many minorities in jail and prison with so little numbers of overall population. Systematic racism is real and we see it everyday in our systems.

These majority white neighborhoods have all kinds of drugs running through them. But there's hardly no police patrol, so they aren't getting arrested. Same amount of drugs in the hood, and there are police on every block. So they are getting arrested at high numbers.

When we face this, we'll understand the issues with the criminal justice system, and understand how we got to the point that minorities are believed the biggest criminals in America and you aren't safe with them around.

[Belsnickel]

So, not only do most illegal immigrants, and drugs, enter the country through legal ports of entry which means a wall is pointless to reduce either thing, there are the questions of effectiveness and efficiency. Walls are only truly effective in urban areas. The reason for this is because walls don't stop people, they slow them down. Walls at places where a city (or cities) are on the border, walls are effective because it helps increase the response time window for CBP. In these areas the response time for CBP is measured in seconds or minutes. On most of the border, where the response time is measured in hours and days, walls do nothing.

This is what I learned by listening to Congressman Hurd (R, TX-23) talking about this issue as well as information I have learned reading ethnographic accounts of border crossers and other items on the issue.

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2019, 05:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Last I looked Hispanics represented 32% of the Jail population, yet only make up 18.2% of Overall Population in US.
1 in 3 inmates are Hispanic.

Actually you didn't look at all.  Instead you were fed those numbers by some right wing source.

Hispanics only make up 32% of Federal Prisoners, and federal prisoners are only about 10% of total inmate population.  The reason Hispanics make up 32% of the federal prison population is because immigration violations are federal offenses.

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2019, 05:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Many of the other Illegals are committing fraud. I don't see USC's doing that on a daily basis do you?

I don't see it but a lot of your brethren on the right side do.  They come here all the time claiming that most people on public assistance are actually wealthy enough to have nice cars and eat lobster with foodstamps.

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2019, 05:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Right Fred, crimes committed by Illegals against other Illegals is always reported no???
Or is it that those Illegals that's been the victim is too scared to report it to the authorities for fear of being deported themselves?

If we are going to argue "make believe" then I will claim that the crime rate of legal citizens is artificially low because they know to prey on undocumented aliens who they know will not report the crime.

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2019, 05:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Also what rate are you comparing them against?

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/is-illegal-immigration-linked-to-more-or-less-crime/

….Alex Nowrasteh, with the libertarian Cato Institute, analyzed the Texas data to make a comparison of immigrants in the country illegally and native-born residents. In a recent post he noted that in 2015 Texas police made 815,689 arrests of native-born Americans, 37,776 arrests of immigrants in the country illegally and 20,323 arrests of legal immigrants. Given the relative populations for each group, he wrote, “The arrest rate for illegal immigrants was 40 percent below that of native-born Americans.”




….Another study, “Does Undocumented Immigration Increase Violent Crime?,” which was published in the journal [i]Criminology[/i] in March, looked at the influx of undocumented immigrants into communities in recent decades and concluded, “Increased concentrations of undocumented immigrants are associated with statistically significant decreases in violent crime.”

[Benton]

(01-28-2019, 02:28 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree that it will take more than just a wall, to put a serious end to illegal border crossings, drug smuggling, and those involved with human trafficking.  

However to simply claim that "walls don't work", is highly debatable.  China, The Vatican, along with Hollywood elites all seem rather content behind the physical barriers protecting their domains.

Unfortunately, the bulk of the more dangerous drugs (heroin for example) and human trafficking comes through legal checkpoints. And a lot of the illegal entry is legal entry, they just overstay their visas.

[BmorePat87]

(01-28-2019, 05:03 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Exactly, and it will cut down the area that border patrol agents have to cover by a great deal.

People build walls around their houses and property all the time, even though there is usually no evidence that anyone has tried to rob them, but Trump wants to do it when people have been crossing illegally and it's a bad idea?

Comparing it to a fence around a home would make more sense if you acknowledge that the majority of the people illegally on your property aren't walking onto your property on the south side of your yard but rather are coming up the driveway with your permission and staying after you asked them to leave. Certainly you'd focus your attention on the more urgent and pervasive problem, especially if the number of people crossing into your yard had been on a steady decline for years. You wouldn't falsely claim there was a new, urgent crisis. Even then, it's a poor comparison for many reasons.

Many reasons backed by studies have been provided in this thread that have explained why a border wall is ineffective and costly in both the short and long run. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

Leftist Media has really gotten you guys good with all those cherry picked numbers.
It's amazing how the ability to think on your own has been lost.

So from 5+ threads on this Wall subject, all I've gathered from most of you is that a wall is a waste of money, yet no one has offered any other means of effectively stopping illegal immigration (oh wait, someone did suggest we send countries a lot of Monetary aid, which isn't going to do crap cause the people will still want to come here). I have gone much more in-depth that many of you with alternate suggestions, but they are all ignored as well. Even explained how to fix the illegals here and make them legal.

No point, I can pick numbers and so can you. I believe that if we won't pass any legislation that seriously curbs illegal immigration, then the wall is the best means at our disposal at this time, it's not the best option, but it's the only one that can get thru legislation.

[BmorePat87]

(01-28-2019, 08:41 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Leftist Media has really gotten you guys good with all those cherry picked numbers.
It's amazing how the ability to think on your own has been lost.

So from 5+ threads on this Wall subject, all I've gathered from most of you is that a wall is a waste of money, yet no one has offered any other means of effectively stopping illegal immigration (oh wait, someone did suggest we send countries a lot of Monetary aid, which isn't going to do crap cause the people will still want to come here). I have gone much more in-depth that many of you with alternate suggestions, but they are all ignored as well. Even explained how to fix the illegals here and make them legal.

No point, I can pick numbers and so can you. I believe that if we won't pass any legislation that seriously curbs illegal immigration, then the wall is the best means at our disposal at this time, it's not the best option, but it's the only one that can get thru legislation.

A wall won't "effectively stop immigration". It won't even "seriously curb" it. It's hardly the "best means" nor the "only one that can get through legislation". 

Many people here have pointed to working on the bigger cause (overstaying visas) for the last two years. You'd likely have bipartisan support for it if you coupled it with protecting Dreamers. 

The wall is only being entertained as this be-all-and-end-all because Donald Trump decided to make it the center point of his campaign. The fact that someone with no immigration or political experience is in a position to set this narrative doesn't mean we have to ignorantly accept it. 

[Belsnickel]

(01-28-2019, 08:41 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: No point, I can pick numbers and so can you. I believe that if we won't pass any legislation that seriously curbs illegal immigration, then the wall is the best means at our disposal at this time, it's not the best option, but it's the only one that can get thru legislation.

No, we won't pass any serious legislation that curbs illegal immigration, but it's not the reason you think. Comprehensive, bipartisan, immigration reform packages based on actual analysis have been proposed, like the one in 2013. Why wasn't it made into law? Because the GOP led House refused to bring it to the floor. They refused to pass their own version and bring it to conference. The explanation I have heard floated most is that immigration is one of the few policy areas where Republicans are perceived as having an edge on Democrats, and so they don't want to lose it as a campaign topic. Passing meaningful immigration legislation takes that issue off the table.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(01-28-2019, 09:05 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A wall won't "effectively stop immigration". It won't even "seriously curb" it. It's hardly the "best means" nor the "only one that can get through legislation". 

Many people here have pointed to working on the bigger cause (overstaying visas) for the last two years. You'd likely have bipartisan support for it if you coupled it with protecting Dreamers. 

The wall is only being entertained as this be-all-and-end-all because Donald Trump decided to make it the center point of his campaign. The fact that someone with no immigration or political experience is in a position to set this narrative doesn't mean we have to ignorantly accept it. 

I have never said that a will is the end all, but it will put a serious curb on it.
The other thing is update where people cross Land and fly out and by sea. Get a server in place to track all of that. I bet once done, the overstays aren't nearly as much as you think. The problems with them is if the person has filed an AOS then they are allowed to stay in the US even if their visa expires, however, once approved, they don't back them out of those numbers they keep reporting them as overstays, and even people that do leave on time, aren't always tracked correctly cause of the current broken system.

(01-28-2019, 09:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: No, we won't pass any serious legislation that curbs illegal immigration, but it's not the reason you think. Comprehensive, bipartisan, immigration reform packages based on actual analysis have been proposed, like the one in 2013. Why wasn't it made into law? Because the GOP led House refused to bring it to the floor. They refused to pass their own version and bring it to conference. The explanation I have heard floated most is that immigration is one of the few policy areas where Republicans are perceived as having an edge on Democrats, and so they don't want to lose it as a campaign topic. Passing meaningful immigration legislation takes that issue off the table.

Strangely enough, I figured the Democrats to be the ones that have the edge on immigration.

I've already explained a way to get dreamers and any illegals in the system that we can. Amnesty is not going to be a part of that. Laws were broken and we can not award people for that. What we can offer a 5 year green card that allows them to remain here and work legally. This will also make sure they keep their noses clean cause if they are ever convicted of any major crimes we can simply deport them. Also keeps them from using the government assistance programs. Trade offs are needed.

[BFritz21]

(01-28-2019, 09:05 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A wall won't "effectively stop immigration". It won't even "seriously curb" it. It's hardly the "best means" nor the "only one that can get through legislation". 

Many people here have pointed to working on the bigger cause (overstaying visas) for the last two years. You'd likely have bipartisan support for it if you coupled it with protecting Dreamers. 

The wall is only being entertained as this be-all-and-end-all because Donald Trump decided to make it the center point of his campaign. The fact that someone with no immigration or political experience is in a position to set this narrative doesn't mean we have to ignorantly accept it. 

You know Obama bashed all the illegal immigrants crossing the border and said that we need to stop it, right? So when Trump wants to do what Obama talked about doing, why’s stopping illegal immigration suddenly wrong?

[fredtoast]

(01-29-2019, 01:23 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You know Obama bashed all the illegal immigrants crossing the border and said that we need to stop it, right? So when Trump wants to do what Obama talked about doing, why’s stopping illegal immigration suddenly wrong?

What are you talking about?  Democrats still want to stop illegal immigration.  They just don't think the wall is the best way to do it.

If your news source is telling you that Democrats want "open borders" then you need to get a new source for your news.

[Belsnickel]

(01-29-2019, 01:04 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Strangely enough, I figured the Democrats to be the ones that have the edge on immigration.

It's one of those "law and order" areas that conservatives tend to have the edge on.

(01-29-2019, 01:04 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I've already explained a way to get dreamers and any illegals in the system that we can. Amnesty is not going to be a part of that. Laws were broken and we can not award people for that. What we can offer a 5 year green card that allows them to remain here and work legally. This will also make sure they keep their noses clean cause if they are ever convicted of any major crimes we can simply deport them. Also keeps them from using the government assistance programs. Trade offs are needed.

1. Undocumented immigrants already don't have access to government assistance.
2. Fixes for these sorts of things are included in the comprehensive overhaul attempts. Republicans in the House refused to pass it.

(01-29-2019, 01:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What are you talking about?  Democrats still want to stop illegal immigration.  They just don't think the wall is the best way to do it.

If your news source is telling you that Democrats want "open borders" then you need to get a new source for your news.

The problem is that this is the messaging from Republican politicians, as well. Just lots of lying all around.