Your Gun Control Laws

[Benton]

(10-03-2017, 12:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Depends on the round.  My friend owns an FFL so he can legally possess suppressors (and they are suppressors, not silencers as they do not silence the gun, they suppress the sound) in order to sell them out of state.  You can shoot my AR chambered in 300AAC using subsonic rounds and the round hitting the dirt is louder than the gun firing.  Of course, the 300AAC round was designed with suppression in mind and for sub sonic shooting.  As you pointed out in the other thread, a subsonic .223 round utterly defeats the purpose of the .223 caliber, being a small, but fast projectile.  Honestly, criminals aren't smart or educated enough on firearms to properly use them.  Of the thousand of gun related arrests I've seen I'd say 98%+ of the guns had nothing but FMJ rounds loaded in them.  The reason, they don't know the difference, to them a bullet is a bullet.  It's why these dickheads can get shot ten times and live.  Since the vast majority of gun related homicides are committed by criminals against other criminals I don't think legal suppressors would have any discernible impact on violent crime.

Additionally, how many civilians could hear a loud bang outside and discern a firearm from a firework?  As actually gunshots sound nothing like their movie equivalent I'd say the answer would be close to zero for most locales.

That's why I think you have to apply some general sense with firearms. 

A professional or an experienced enthusiast understands differences in velocity, caliber, etc. The majority are like a Facebook "friend" who posted Saturday "If I hit a bullet w/my lawn mower, will it go off?"

[*bfine32*]

Aren't homemade suppressors easily made?

[Benton]

(10-03-2017, 01:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Aren't homemade suppressors easily made?

So are pipe bombs.

[BmorePat87]

Like I said before, short of an outright ban on guns (which is unconstitutional), gun laws won't prevent guys like this from doing what they did.

As the late (and apparently pregnant) Fredtoast pointed out, mass shootings are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to gun violence, which is true. Then again, how much will really be stopped by the safety net? With 3D printers and the ability to make homemade mods, normal people have access to weapons like the ones used to kill nearly 60 people this week. That doesn't mean I don't want any safety measures, it just won't be a magic fix.

It starts with a focus on mental health in my opinion.

[Belsnickel]

(10-03-2017, 03:10 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Like I said before, short of an outright ban on guns (which is unconstitutional), gun laws won't prevent guys like this from doing what they did.

As the late (and apparently pregnant) Fredtoast pointed out, mass shootings are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to gun violence, which is true. Then again, how much will really be stopped by the safety net? With 3D printers and the ability to make homemade mods, normal people have access to weapons like the ones used to kill nearly 60 people this week. That doesn't mean I don't want any safety measures, it just won't be a magic fix.

It starts with a focus on mental health in my opinion.

This is one of the reasons why in my proposal I specify an increase in funding to the research of gun violence. This has been stalled for so long out of fear of reprisal by the NRA. If we want to address the root causes, we need the research.

[Yojimbo]

How about civilians can only own single shot muzzle loaded rifles. No hand guns, no magazines/clips.

[*bfine32*]

(10-03-2017, 02:48 PM)Benton Wrote: So are pipe bombs.

Outlaw pipes?


See that was kinda my point.

[*bfine32*]

(10-03-2017, 04:20 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: How about civilians can only own single shot muzzle loaded rifles. No hand guns, no magazines/clips.

I've always proposed a homeowner should be allowed to own a long barrel for home protection with no (very limited)restrictions.

To own handguns and/or take your weapons out of your house should require stricter requirements.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-03-2017, 05:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've always proposed a homeowner should be allowed to own a long barrel for home protection with no (very limited)restrictions.

I hope you don't (and I don't think you do) mean a muzzle loader as the post you quoted stated.

Quote:To own handguns and/or take your weapons out of your house should require stricter requirements.

Again, we're talking in vague generalizations.  What does stricter mean in application?

[*bfine32*]

(10-03-2017, 05:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I hope you don't (and I don't think you do) mean a muzzle loader as the post you quoted stated.


Again, we're talking in vague generalizations.  What does stricter mean in application?

I do not mean a muzzle loader. I mean a shotgun or a rifle.

Licenses required to carry the weapon outside of your house to include a proficiency test.   

[Benton]

(10-03-2017, 05:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Outlaw pipes?


See that was kinda my point.

IEDs are illegal, pipes aren’t.

So if I’m following your previous post and this one, I take it you approve of suppressors being illegal, so long as we allow metal tubes and fittings.

[*bfine32*]

(10-03-2017, 07:48 PM)Benton Wrote: IEDs are illegal, pipes aren’t.

So if I’m following your previous post and this one, I take it you approve of suppressors being illegal, so long as we allow metal tubes and fittings.

You are not. Outlawing a suppressor will do nothing to stop the criminal that wants to suppress a gun report. 

I do approve of the activity of shooting someone with a suppressed gun or blowing up someone with a pipe bomb being illegal; but not pipes or suppressors. 

[Benton]

(10-03-2017, 09:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You are not. Outlawing a suppressor will do nothing to stop the criminal that wants to suppress a gun report. 

I do approve of the activity of shooting someone with a suppressed gun or blowing up someone with a pipe bomb being illegal; but not pipes or suppressors. 

Pipes, understandable. Suppressors, I don’t see any realistic positive usage.

Either way, I don’t think suppressors are really all that relevant. I’ve never seen any statistics, but I would assume suppressor usage in committing crimes is as negligible as suppressor usage by people looking to be courteous at the gun range.

[*bfine32*]

(10-03-2017, 11:18 PM)Benton Wrote: Pipes, understandable. Suppressors, I don’t see any realistic positive usage.

Either way, I don’t think suppressors are really all that relevant. I’ve never seen any statistics, but I would assume suppressor usage in committing crimes is as negligible as suppressor usage by people looking to be courteous at the gun range.

No doubt. I'd just agree with allowing folks to have the option to be courteous at the gun range. 

[Belsnickel]

I had the pleasure of hearing Mark Kelly speak last night. I wanted to share some of his words on all of this. This is from an article in my local paper, which is behind a paywall. http://www.dnronline.com/news/local/astronaut-says-america-has-problem-with-guns/article_f5643194-a8b2-11e7-8efc-e77bfbd5e122.html

Quote:BRIDGEWATER — Mark Kelly knows guns. He owns them and has been in combat, fighting for his country.

But he thinks America has a problem, and it must take steps to restrict who can buy guns legally and how some weapons operate.

“We have 33,000 people on average die from gun violence every single year,” the retired astronaut, engineer and Navy captain said Tuesday afternoon, before a speaking engagement at Bridgewater College and just days after a gunman killed and wounded scores of people in Las Vegas. “It’s an enormous amount of people. It’s a huge cost to our country.

“The sad thing is it does not have to be that bad, and our laws do matter. So if we can prevent the wrong people from getting their hands on guns through things like background checks and making sure we have records that are complete and we know who the domestic abusers are who are out there, we can prevent some of these things, not all of them.”

Kelly is not just a gun owner and user. He’s a victim of gun violence.

His wife, former congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., was seriously injured in an assassination attempt in which six people were killed and 13 wounded.

He told the packed crowd at Cole Hall Tuesday night that he was flying his mother and two daughters from Houston to Arizona on a private plane when CNN, MSNBC and Fox News all announced that she’d died. Thirty minutes later, they corrected their story to say she was in surgery.

“The media shouldn’t be pronouncing people dead,” Kelly said. “Probably should leave that up to doctors. And I can tell you this, my wife Gabby was not going to be taken out by cable news.”

Kelly said Tuesday that he’d spoken to Chuck Todd of NBC News that day about Sunday night’s mass shooting in Las Vegas, in which a gunman in the upper floors of a hotel sprayed round after round into a crowd of more than 20,000 concertgoers. At least 59 people were killed and more than 500 injured.

The 53-year-old said the killer “was able to amass a pretty unique set of weapons that could fire automatically, for some reason,” and that he had a tactical advantage over his targets.

Kelly is concerned about a bill to make it easier for people to purchase gun silencers that’s making its way through Congress. The shooting, it was reported Tuesday, likely has sidelined the legislation at least temporarily.

“Then we think about what if that guy had a silencer on that weapon?” Kelly asked. “That’s what really worries me.

“Congress right now is in the process of considering legalizing silencers, where he could have gone out, bought a silencer and put it on that weapon. What would that look like if these people couldn’t hear the gunshots being fired?”

Solutions Available

Identifying the problem is one thing. Solving it is another.

Kelly said he doesn’t want to take guns away from Americans. The 25-year military veteran said responsible people have a right to own guns to defend themselves, hunt and target shoot.

“We don’t need,” he said, “to infringe on responsible people’s rights.”

But he said convicted felons shouldn’t be able to buy guns, as they can now in places where background checks aren’t required.

Domestic abusers, he said, shouldn’t be able to buy guns because a number have become mass shooters. Guns also should be kept out of the hands of stalkers, he added.

Safe-storage laws should be put into place, he said, and steps need to be taken to keep guns from being trafficked from states with looser laws to states with tougher laws.

Kelly also opined that the types of weapons available should be restricted from current levels.

“Should any individuals have the right to arm themselves in the same way as SEAL Team Six? Probably not,” he said. “We should have a conversation about what firearms should be in the hands of what kinds of individuals, and maybe for certain things we decide to have a higher standard.

“But I think the ability for somebody to go out and buy an AR-15 or an AK-47 and modify it, potentially legally, to get it to fire as a fully automatic weapon is probably not a good idea, and it certainly probably contributed to what we saw in Vegas this week.”

Steps such as those Kelly outlined won’t bring an end to gun violence and deaths, he said, but they will reduce the number of people killed or wounded, and 80 percent or more of American support tougher gun laws.

“We know that in the states that have the stronger gun laws,” he said, “we have less people that die from gun violence, so we can make this better. ... If we do these things, I can guarantee you that the number of people that die in this country will go down. If we don’t, it has been trending in the wrong direction.”

Giffords, Kelly told the crowd Tuesday night, could not be in Bridgewater due to another commitment, and she no longer can do many things that were routine before the shooting.

But he said she keeps the piece of skull removed during her first surgery in a container in the freezer of their Tucson, Ariz., home and delights in taking it out and showing it to first-time guests there.

“Despite putting a bullet through her head,” Kelly said of the would-be assassin, “he hasn’t put a dent in her spirit and in her desire to make the world a better place.”

[Millhouse]

Over 30,000 Americans a year die due to guns. Roughly more than half of that is due to gun violence.

This year alone there are already just under 12000 violent gun deaths in America. (almost four times the number killed on 9/11 in just over 9 months)

Yet when a fraction of those numbers, like a really small fraction, are killed by terrorists, the country goes apeshit and pours billions & billions into fighting it.

When over 400,000 have died with a gun being used (homicides, suicides, and accidents) since 2001, the country does squat to bring those numbers down.

But hey, lets beef up the military and bans on travelers and all this other stuff when only a few 1000 have been killed in the same time by terrorists.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-04-2017, 10:04 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I had the pleasure of hearing Mark Kelly speak last night. I wanted to share some of his words on all of this. This is from an article in my local paper, which is behind a paywall. http://www.dnronline.com/news/local/astronaut-says-america-has-problem-with-guns/article_f5643194-a8b2-11e7-8efc-e77bfbd5e122.html

Respect the man's service, but how strong is your argument when you open it with a blatant lie.  About 2/3's of gun related deaths are suicides.  A suicide is not gun violence any more than hanging yourself is rope violence or taking a fistful of Xanax is pill violence.  This kind of disingenuous debate on this subject is why gun owners or pro 2A types have zero trust in the other sides position or motivation.

(10-04-2017, 06:12 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Over 30,000 Americans a year die due to guns. Roughly more than half of that is due to gun violence.

This year alone there are already just under 12000 violent gun deaths in America. (almost four times the number killed on 9/11 in just over 9 months)

Yet when a fraction of those numbers, like a really small fraction, are killed by terrorists, the country goes apeshit and pours billions & billions into fighting it.

When over 400,000 have died with a gun being used (homicides, suicides, and accidents) since 2001, the country does squat to bring those numbers down.

But hey, lets beef up the military and bans on travelers and all this other stuff when only a few 1000 have been killed in the same time by terrorists.

It's actually a third that die due to gun violence.  Of that third the vast majority of the victims of gun violence are criminals being targeted by other criminals.  It is contradictory, at best, to discuss the need to reduce gun violence while at the same time reducing prison sentences for violent offenders.  We actually do something to bring down those numbers, it's called imprisoning criminals.  Consequently, the numbers have dropped steadily pretty much every years since 1992.  The now rise in crime can be directly attributed to soft on crime laws and politicians.  It cannot be a coincidence that a 25 year trend is suddenly no longer in effect after pro criminal laws are passed in many left leaning states.  Maybe Jimmy Kimmel should have been railing against all the Democrats who drafted these soft on crime laws?

[Belsnickel]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/10/upshot/How-to-Prevent-Gun-Deaths-The-Views-of-Experts-and-the-Public.html?em_pos=small&emc=edit_up_20171002&nl=upshot&nl_art=1&nlid=14940076&ref=headline&te=1

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Latest example of how politician's gun laws are stupid and almost always written by someone who knows fuckall about guns.  From Feinstein's proposed "Automatic Gunfire Prevention Act";

Quote:Except as provided in paragraph (2), on and after the date that is 180 days after the date of enactment of this subsection, it shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, manufacture, transfer, or possess, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, a trigger crank, a bump-fire device, or any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment, or accessory that is designed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semi-automatic rifle but not convert the semiautomatic rifle into a machinegun.

Notice the part about "accelerating the rate of fire"?  That could, as written, apply to any replacement trigger with a lighter trigger pull than the OEM trigger.  Any gun owner worth a shit knows that the single most important, replaceable, part on your gun that has the greatest affect on your accuracy is the trigger group.  I don't own an AR that doesn't have a Geissele replacement trigger group for this very reason.  This kind of idiotic shit from know nothing anti-gun politicians is why they never get anything passed beyond state legislatures full of dumb assed know nothing anti-gun politicians (some of them running illegal guns yeah!).  You want to get mad at someone, get mad at politicians who overreach and write legislation that any reasonable politician would oppose due to said overreach and inanely broadly worded legislation.  I'll wait for dip shit Jimble Kimble to rant about them next.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

We all know that the ultimate goal of the left is to ban all firearms but they know they can't...right now that is.

All the gun control laws and bans will not stop someone from causing as much death and destruction as they can. This guy had the money and resolve to destroy as much life as he could. If he happened to think this thing through even more, he would have purchased a mini-gun, mounted in that room and mowed down thousands rather than hundreds. He wouldn't have had to bust out a window, just start firing, kill as many as possible and take off after five minutes.

Then he would have gotten away, set up and detonated his explosives killing and destroying even more.

Thank God in Heaven he wasn't smarter.