The Bengals rank #1 in the league in positional spending at Safety. I don't think they get even crazier by putting more money into safeties. If Hill can start next year at FS, we have more money for Burrow and Chase. I think Bates won't be signed to an extension at any point and he will carry the sour apples through the season.

(06-18-2022, 11:11 AM)2MinutesHate Wrote: The Bengals rank #1 in the league in positional spending at Safety.  I don't think they get even crazier by putting more money into safeties.  If Hill can start next year at FS, we have more money for Burrow and Chase.  I think  Bates won't be signed to an extension at any point and he will carry the sour apples through the season.

Or once he signs the tag, then allow him to seek a trade. WE gain 13 million and likely a 2nd round and mid range 2023 draft pick. His agemt can work out a long term deal, there are teams that have the money to pay him and need a safety,

Or he finds out his value is not as high as he thought.

(06-18-2022, 05:18 AM)puddycat Wrote: IMHO. Bates not being in camp is because he doesn't have to.  Bengals have used the franchise 8 times, and signed 1 guy, Rudi, to an extension.  That means that the Bengals are not looking to sign him again.  So Bates has to decide the best path to getting paid for the rest of his life.  Part of that is playing under the tag this year.  But he isn't looking to make the Bengals happy.  He is going to do what he needs to do to put himself in a place to showcase his skills to other teams with the least risk.  That means not playing in camp, minimal preseason snaps, playing at a high level in primetime games, and staying healthy.

So you think other teams will want to pay Bates mega bucks if he plays poorly in non prime time games, but awesome under the lights. GM's are not casual football fans, my guess is the watch every snap Bates took in the NFL over and over again. I also believe him saying he did not give 100% in 2021 is a huge red flag for any team.

Staying healthy is also easier said than done. How many times have seen guys hurt playing it safe?

I like Bates, but let's be honest. Bates is not the game changing safety like Ed Reid or Ronnie Lott, he is not a HOF safety, not so far at least.

(06-18-2022, 11:40 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So you think other teams will want to pay Bates mega bucks if he plays poorly in non prime time games, but awesome under the lights. GM's are not casual football fans, my guess is the watch every snap Bates took in the NFL over and over again. I also believe him saying he did not give 100% in 2021 is a huge red flag for any team.

Staying healthy is also easier said than done. How many times have seen guys hurt playing it safe?

I like Bates, but let's be honest. Bates is not the game changing safety like Ed Reid or Ronnie Lott, he is not a HOF safety, not so far at least.

Teams pay for potential.  If they didn't Bates would be under contract right now and we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Players play hurt in the NFL all the time.  Do you think that a player on the tag is going to play through injury or get surgery right away, tell the team he might be back for the playoffs, and prep for free agency?  And if you were their agent what would your advice be?

(06-18-2022, 09:00 PM)puddycat Wrote: Teams pay for potential.  If they didn't Bates would be under contract right now and we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Players play hurt in the NFL all the time.  Do you think that a player on the tag is going to play through injury or get surgery right away, tell the team he might be back for the playoffs, and prep for free agency?  And if you were their agent what would your advice be?

Bates is a seasoned vet. Are you saying others think Bates has yet to peak? If so, do you think GM's think he is next Ed Reed?

If GM's are that high on him, they will seek a trade and give up a 1st round pick for him. I think they are not that high on him, but time will tell if Bengals decide to allow him to seek a trade what his true high end market is with 31 other teams.

There's a part of me hoping they don't get the deal with Bates and Hill becomes the stud safety. We get a few deals from that.. Bates's replacement for rookie scale and the loot to possible sign JoeyB, Chase and Tee and tie them all up long term.. We also get a pretty decent comp pick for him out of the deal as well..   This could end up being the best thing in the long run.. We'll find out one way or another.

(06-19-2022, 11:26 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Bates is a seasoned vet. Are you saying others think Bates has yet to peak? If so, do you think GM's think he is next Ed Reed?

If GM's are that high on him, they will seek a trade and give up a 1st round pick for him. I think they are not that high on him, but time will tell if Bengals decide to allow him to seek a trade what his true high end market is with 31 other teams.

PFF did a study that suggested its the third most valuable position according to War. So I wouldn't be shocked if Bates value is that of a 1st Rd pick. Especially considering he is only 25!

Take it for what it's worth, but I was told today the Bengals had recently made another offer to Bates with a slightly different approach to see if they can make one last effort on getting him signed before the 15th. This is not from anyone in Cincy but someone from another team, so it's 3rd hand knowledge so again... take that for what it's worth.

(07-07-2022, 05:01 PM)Au165 Wrote: Take it for what it's worth, but I was told today the Bengals had recently made another offer to Bates with a slightly different approach to see if they can make one last effort on getting him signed before the 15th. This is not from anyone in Cincy but someone from another team, so it's 3rd hand knowledge so again... take that for what it's worth.

I think the Bengals have numbers in mind, total contract with guaranteed money. My guess and simply a guess is they want to sign him long term. I hope the 2 sides come to an agreement or they allow Bates to seek a trade. I don't want him anymore on the franchise tag, long term or let him walk in my opinion.

But again, I hope we sign him t a 5 year deal that makes bth sides happy.

(07-07-2022, 05:07 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think the Bengals have numbers in mind, total contract with guaranteed money. My guess and simply a guess is they want to sign him long term. I hope the 2 sides come to an agreement or they allow Bates to seek a trade. I don't want him anymore on the franchise tag, long term or let him walk in my opinion.

But again, I hope we sign him t a 5 year deal that makes bth sides happy.

I'd be happy with letting him play on the tag this year and then reevaluating the situation/tag him again next year. He can play himself into the deal he want's or the deal the Bengals want. Just let Jessie prove it or lose it this year.

If they do lose Bates though, they better be damn sure the retain guys like Higgins/Chase. 

(07-07-2022, 05:07 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think the Bengals have numbers in mind, total contract with guaranteed money. My guess and simply a guess is they want to sign him long term. I hope the 2 sides come to an agreement or they allow Bates to seek a trade. I don't want him anymore on the franchise tag, long term or let him walk in my opinion.

But again, I hope we sign him t a 5 year deal that makes bth sides happy.

It does sound like more of a structure play here than a major money move, but again really limited details. 

(07-07-2022, 05:01 PM)Au165 Wrote: Take it for what it's worth, but I was told today the Bengals had recently made another offer to Bates with a slightly different approach to see if they can make one last effort on getting him signed before the 15th. This is not from anyone in Cincy but someone from another team, so it's 3rd hand knowledge so again... take that for what it's worth.

Doesn't shock me; Deadlines create deals.

(07-07-2022, 05:01 PM)Au165 Wrote: Take it for what it's worth, but I was told today the Bengals had recently made another offer to Bates with a slightly different approach to see if they can make one last effort on getting him signed before the 15th. This is not from anyone in Cincy but someone from another team, so it's 3rd hand knowledge so again... take that for what it's worth.

Cool, thanks Au.

(07-07-2022, 05:15 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I'd be happy with letting him play on the tag this year and then reevaluating the situation/tag him again next year. He can play himself into the deal he want's or the deal the Bengals want. Just let Jessie prove it or lose it this year.

If they do lose Bates though, they better be damn sure the retain guys like Higgins/Chase. 

I am with you Weezy on letting him play on the tag this year. If it is on his mind like last regular season and he doesn't play 
well we can let him go afterwards with a couple talented young guys in Dax and Tycen in the wings. If he plays himself out 
of a contract here even better IMO. All this being said I would be fine if we got a deal done too.

Just cannot be a Minkah Fitzpatrick deal. We need money for the guys you mention and Burrow much more than for an 
inconsistent Safety who plays great here and there but has some problems tackling.

(07-07-2022, 05:01 PM)Au165 Wrote: Take it for what it's worth, but I was told today the Bengals had recently made another offer to Bates with a slightly different approach to see if they can make one last effort on getting him signed before the 15th. This is not from anyone in Cincy but someone from another team, so it's 3rd hand knowledge so again... take that for what it's worth.

Hopefully it's legit and he takes the offer because we need to get him under contract without breaking the bank because we can't have him playing the regular season like he played the regular season last year and he has to realize that it's unlikely that another team will offer him a big contract based only off of his playoff performance.

I hope he also realizes that he can't sign the franchise tag and then half-ass it in the regular season again because that's an easy way to get himself hurt.

(07-07-2022, 06:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Cool, thanks Au.


I am with you Weezy on letting him play on the tag this year. If it is on his mind like last regular season and he doesn't play 
well we can let him go afterwards with a couple talented young guys in Dax and Tycen in the wings. If he plays himself out 
of a contract here even better IMO. All this being said I would be fine if we got a deal done too.

Just cannot be a Minkah Fitzpatrick deal. We need money for the guys you mention and Burrow much more than for an 
inconsistent Safety who plays great here and there but has some problems tackling.

Agreed but, like I said above, my biggest fear is he doesn't go all-out again this season.

We normally take care of our guys, so let's hope that we do but leave ourselves some room because we have some big contracts coming up in the next few years.

(07-07-2022, 05:20 PM)Au165 Wrote: It does sound like more of a structure play here than a major money move, but again really limited details. 

Please share the "limited details".

Why tell us about a "new offer" and then not tell us what it is?

Elsewhere on the franchise-tag front, there isn’t a lot of optimism the #Bengals and Jessie Bates will bridge the gap between the tag ($12.9m) and the top of the safety market ($18m+) between now and next week’s deadline. https://t.co/6HNznW6ASg

— Mike Garafolo (@MikeGarafolo) July 9, 2022

I love Bates but the Bengals have too many more important players to re-sign and they drafted safety replacements this year.

Burrow , Chase, Wilson, and Williams will all get top contracts.

It’s also going to be hard to lose Boyd and Higgins but they won’t be able to afford two mega wr contracts after chase gets his money.

One of the problems of finally having a top team with lots of pro bowl quality players

(07-09-2022, 07:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Please share the "limited details".

Why tell us about a "new offer" and then not tell us what it is?

I told you what I knew, a different offer with an adjusted structure to try to make it more favorable. Interestingly enough the day after I was told this (and posted here) reports came out that a deal probably won’t get done, so that probably doesn’t bode well for it being received well from Bates’ camp.

We might have just gotten a break in this.

Executives, coaches, players, and scouts ranked their top ten safeties for 2022, and Bates is ranked 6th.


The reason that's important is that four of the five players ranked ahead of him are making more than Bates on the franchise tag, with Derwin James being the outlier making less, but he's also on his rookie contract, so can Bates really command that much more than the tag?

Quote:Minkah Fitzpatrick
Steelers
26 $18,247,000
Jamal Adams
Seahawks
27 $17,500,000
Harrison Smith
Vikings
33 $16,000,000
Justin Simmons
Broncos
29 $15,250,000
Budda Baker
Cardinals
26 $14,750,000
Eddie Jackson
Bears
29 $14,600,000
Kevin Byard
Titans
29 $14,100,000
Marcus Williams
Ravens
26 $14,000,000
Quandre Diggs
Seahawks
29 $13,000,000
Jessie Bates III
Bengals
25 $12,911,000

Hopefully that gives us some leverage and James signs for 14 or 15 with maybe bonuses/incentives built in that could make it more because it's not the Bengals just lowballing him, that's ESPN putting it out there for everyone to see, including other teams.

(07-09-2022, 10:03 AM)Au165 Wrote: I told you what I knew, a different offer with an adjusted structure to try to make it more favorable. Interestingly enough the day after I was told this (and posted here) reports came out that a deal probably won’t get done, so that probably doesn’t bode well for it being received well from Bates’ camp.

What does "adjusted structure" mean?