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+---- Thread: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered (/Thread-Intermediate-step-to-beginning-of-life-uncovered)
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 04:03 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: When you're watching a movie, even though you're watching that actor at that moment, the movie has already been filmed and the actors are somewhere else, doing something else.
As you're sitting there reading this right now, God is watching you and knows what you will do 5 years from now, yet it hasn't happened yet. Five minutes from now hasn't happened yet. You can continue to read this, or get up and leave from where you are. Nothing is physically making you do either.
Wrap your head around that.
Or maybe you believe you have no say in what you do; continue reading or get up and leave. In that case, you're right. You have no free will.
I bet you believe it's your choice of which one you decide to do.
It is my choice, because I don't believe in supernatural gods who programmed me to behave a certain way. If God already knows the future, the future is a foregone conclusion. The same as a movie is.
It makes you wonder, why he wastes his time with humans. He already knows how the story ends. There is no "proving" yourself worthy of him. He already knows the deal. You guys don't think too highly of your god if you believe he would waste his time with such a ridiculous activity.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - michaelsean - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 09:18 AM)Ben Richards Wrote: You know what is funny about 'faith' and the Christian God? On the first page of that little sci-fi novel it talks about this creator making stuff and then all of a sudden he needs a nap because he is tired or something from all the creating....
So you're meaning to tell me that this all powerful wizard has the ability to make something from nothing, but he still gets weak and tired?
Christians, why is your 'God' lazy and weak? I look forward to your brilliant responses that I won't read.
You'll probably get a better discussion if you aren't an ass about it. Maybe follow whodey and Jimbreeches lead.
Then again your last sentence says you would prefer to be an ass so have at it.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - GMDino - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 09:30 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: How can you "improvise" from a script god wrote before you were even born?
You can't.
You were pre-programmed at the factory.
And you typed big not because of "free will", but because God programmed you to. You only think you have free will. That's the joke of it all.
The way I was taught was God did not program our lives. He did not say I would get married at 27 and have two children. But rather He "knew" what choices I would make even before creating me.
Which is completely crazy when you then look at the church telling us we are sinners and we must seek forgiveness from the person who knew we would sin before he ever made us in the first place and hates sin so much he would send his creations, the people he loves, to eternal damnation for doing it.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - Belsnickel - 06-16-2015
I'm seeing a lot of black and white comparisons when it comes to people of faith and people of science. That is a misrepresentation of religious individuals and scientists to be quite frank. There are men and women of faith that are scientists. They don't attribute things they don't understand to "God did it" and they do seek the scientific answers. Many laypeople that have faith are also not in that category.
Yes, there are people that attribute so much to the divine/supernatural that it seems as though they are content to lay about in ignorance and revel in their closed mindedness. But there are millions of people that have faith and work in fields of science, or who are interested in them, or at the very least read an article on some new scientific discovery and allow that to change how they may see the world or even the universe. Faith is not synonymous with closed mindedness. Part of closed mindedness is seeing the world only in black and white and never accepting that a viewpoint other than your own may just have a ring of truth to it. There are closed minded people of faith, and there are closed minded people without faith.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 10:01 AM)GMDino Wrote: The way I was taught was God did not program our lives. He did not say I would get married at 27 and have two children. But rather He "knew" what choices I would make even before creating me.
Which is completely crazy when you then look at the church telling us we are sinners and we must seek forgiveness from the person who knew we would sin before he ever made us in the first place and hates sin so much he would send his creations, the people he loves, to eternal damnation for doing it.
I just don't understand how an all-knowing and all-powerful god can have regrets about anything. He makes humans who disobey him, he becomes upset (why an all-knowing God could get ticked off about the results of his creations are beyond me) and drowns everyone in a flood for behaving exactly how he knew they would.
Either this God can't get out of his own way or he gets a kick out of punishing his creations.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - Ben Richards - 06-16-2015
Maybe he realized that he didn't have all this time to watch over all of his children and keep up with his napping schedule?
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 10:12 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm seeing a lot of black and white comparisons when it comes to people of faith and people of science. That is a misrepresentation of religious individuals and scientists to be quite frank. There are men and women of faith that are scientists. They don't attribute things they don't understand to "God did it" and they do seek the scientific answers. Many laypeople that have faith are also not in that category.
Yes, there are people that attribute so much to the divine/supernatural that it seems as though they are content to lay about in ignorance and revel in their closed mindedness. But there are millions of people that have faith and work in fields of science, or who are interested in them, or at the very least read an article on some new scientific discovery and allow that to change how they may see the world or even the universe. Faith is not synonymous with closed mindedness. Part of closed mindedness is seeing the world only in black and white and never accepting that a viewpoint other than your own may just have a ring of truth to it. There are closed minded people of faith, and there are closed minded people without faith.
Having faith is essentially pretending to have knowledge of something that you don't have. That's being close minded in regard to that issue. When it comes to the issue of supernatural gods existing, these people are close minded. They aren't open to new information.
I can name an infinite number of things that would cause me to believe in the existence of God. However, can a person of faith name one thing that will cause them to give up belief in God? Obviously none of these scientist or level-headed people you mention above are in doubt even with all the information they have.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - GMDino - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 10:12 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm seeing a lot of black and white comparisons when it comes to people of faith and people of science. That is a misrepresentation of religious individuals and scientists to be quite frank. There are men and women of faith that are scientists. They don't attribute things they don't understand to "God did it" and they do seek the scientific answers. Many laypeople that have faith are also not in that category.
Yes, there are people that attribute so much to the divine/supernatural that it seems as though they are content to lay about in ignorance and revel in their closed mindedness. But there are millions of people that have faith and work in fields of science, or who are interested in them, or at the very least read an article on some new scientific discovery and allow that to change how they may see the world or even the universe. Faith is not synonymous with closed mindedness. Part of closed mindedness is seeing the world only in black and white and never accepting that a viewpoint other than your own may just have a ring of truth to it. There are closed minded people of faith, and there are closed minded people without faith.
I agree there is a sliding scale and plenty of gray areas...but for the sake of brevity the people we are describing are the ones who who will always disagree.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - Benton - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 07:35 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Let me preface my answer by telling you this; you and I disagree on a philosophical level. I think we can agree to disagree while still respecting the other's opinion. I don't feel like you are trying to force me to live my life according to your beliefs and I'm certainly not trying to force you to live your life according to my beliefs. You seem like a reasonable person. My comments aren't meant to offend reasonable people like yourself. However, I like messing with the unreasonable people who believe other's life choice should conform to their beliefs.
Agreed.
I do enjoy debating some philosophy though, so...
Quote:So your question presupposes one chooses the correct destination. God knows your destination. Because he knows your destination there is only one correct option. If your known destination is NYC, but you choose LA, you will arrive at NYC. You just chose the incorrect destination.
God has a plan.
Knowing what you are going to do does not mean He made you do it. If he did, if he coerced you, forced you or manipulated you (maybe He quarantined LA or an earthquake cut off the west coast or something) then, yes, you are correct. You had no choice. There was no free will. He flexed omnipotence and you ended up not where you wanted.
But if He just knows you're going to NYC, that's just Him having advanced knowledge.
If you go to a bar and your wife knows you're going, disapproves of your going and you go anyway, that's your choice. It's not a predetermined destination.
Quote:If you get in your car (that God built) on your path to your chosen destination of LA, but you encounter one obstacle after another making your progress incredibly difficult; God is telling you this isn't your path. You need to quit and follow a different path. God's path. Because God intends for you to travel to NYC. (You chose incorrectly and God steered you along the correct path.)
If you get in your car (that God built) on your path to your chosen destination of NYC, but you encounter one obstacle after another making your progress incredibly difficult; God is testing you and you need to persevere and follow God's path for you. Because God intends for you to travel to NYC. (You chose correctly and God steered you along the correct path.)
This is mixing omnipotence and omniscience. If He knows you're going to alter His plan, then yes, He could change that. But that's presupposing that your individual actions alter His plan. In cosmic terms, you choosing to go left or right at a stop sign probably doesn't concern Him very much. It's your free will, go straight.
Quote:If you get in your car (that God built) on your path to your chosen destination of NYC, but you encounter one obstacle after another making your progress incredibly difficult and you crash your car into one of those obstacles and die then someone will tell your widow, "It's all a part of God's plan." (You chose incorrectly and God steered you along the correct path.)
If you get in your car (that God built) on your path to your chosen destination of NYC, but you encounter one obstacle after another making your progress incredibly difficult and you're about to crash into one of those obstacles and miraculously Jesus takes the wheel and saves you. (Again God steered you along the correct path.)
So no matter the destination or the path, once you get there you can always look back and say, "God had a plan for me" because hindsight is 20/20. As far as delusions go, it's brilliant.
Yes, that's why every person has to be accountable for their own actions. Because "God's plan" was to give you free will and see what you would do with it. If you take it to LA or NYC, it probably doesn't make much difference to Him.
(06-16-2015, 09:18 AM)Ben Richards Wrote: You know what is funny about 'faith' and the Christian God? On the first page of that little sci-fi novel it talks about this creator making stuff and then all of a sudden he needs a nap because he is tired or something from all the creating....
So you're meaning to tell me that this all powerful wizard has the ability to make something from nothing, but he still gets weak and tired?
Christians, why is your 'God' lazy and weak? I look forward to your brilliant responses that I won't read.
Genesis wasn't meant to be taken literally.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
Quote:Yes, that's why every person has to be accountable for their own actions. Because "God's plan" was to give you free will and see what you would do with it. If you take it to LA or NYC, it probably doesn't make much difference to Him.
The fundamental question I have is if God already had foreknowledge of my actions prior to my even being, what exactly is he expecting to "see" by supposedly giving me "free will"?
Hasn't he already "seen" it? Doesn't he know precisely what everyone "would do with it"? Which begs the question: what is the point exactly?
Why would he watch the movie of my life (after creation) and expect anything to play out any differently than what he already saw prior to my existence?
His knowledge can't be made any clearer. That's why I could never grasp this notion that life is some sort of test. The grades were already assigned before you even existed.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-16-2015
(06-15-2015, 09:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Heathens... what can you do?
I meant "You're" not "you're" because I was referring to God, not me.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 01:14 AM)bfine32 Wrote: It is funny. If a satisfactory answer to a question of scripture cannot be given, then this means it is not true. If a satisfactory answer to a question of science cannot be given, then this means we just haven’t discovered it yet.
It is sad that you thought you were being "clever" with this response. The scripture tells us we should walk by faith and not by sight.
Do you have an example of scripture for which you lack a satisfactory answer?
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - Benton - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 11:44 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: The fundamental question I have is if God already had foreknowledge of my actions prior to my even being, what exactly is he expecting to "see" by supposedly giving me "free will"?
I'm not God, I have no idea what He was thinking.
But, my personal belief goes back to non-linear concepts of time. He knew it once he did it. 1 billion years ago, 10 billions years from now, it's all the same moment to Him. To us, too, but we don't perceive it that way. Even though sometimes you do perceive time as non-liner.
An example of that is when you see a woman. Your mind recounts the past to see if you know her, if she reminds you of anyone, etc. You also think about the future at the same time – is she someone you want to know, what's she going to look like in 20 years, does she have a job. There isn't really thinking in the present, the present is already over, but you are digesting that moment also — what she's doing, what she looks like then, what's happening around her — as you interpret those other two frames (the past and future). You're thinking non-linearly.
Quote:Hasn't he already "seen" it? Doesn't he know precisely what everyone "would do with it"? Which begs the question: what is the point exactly?
Of life? If no one has figured it out in a billion years, I don't think those of us on a message board are going to crack that nut.
Quote:Why would he watch the movie of my life (after creation) and expect anything to play out any differently than what he already saw prior to my existence?
His knowledge can't be made any clearer. That's why I could never grasp this notion that life is some sort of test. The grades were already assigned before you even existed.
I defer to Modest Mouse and other philosophers. The universe is shaped exactly like the Earth, if you go straight long enough you'll end up where you were. Personally, I don't think it's a test. I think like most parents, He made life, tossed out some rules — not because of any maliciousness, just trying to teach some basics -- and then let it work itself out over a few billion years.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - Beaker - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 11:44 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: The fundamental question I have is if God already had foreknowledge of my actions prior to my even being, what exactly is he expecting to "see" by supposedly giving me "free will"?
Hasn't he already "seen" it? Doesn't he know precisely what everyone "would do with it"? Which begs the question: what is the point exactly?
Why would he watch the movie of my life (after creation) and expect anything to play out any differently than what he already saw prior to my existence?
His knowledge can't be made any clearer. That's why I could never grasp this notion that life is some sort of test. The grades were already assigned before you even existed.
Exactly what I have been asking....and only getting a circular argument from religious types. The reason being is because that question cannot be answered with out disrupting the fundamental basis of religion.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
Quote:I don't think it's a test. I think like most parents, He made life, tossed out some rules — not because of any maliciousness, just trying to teach some basics -- and then let it work itself out over a few billion years.
Why would he make rules he knew would not be obeyed and then punish people for not obeying them? How can you consider that not to be intentional and if it is intentional how can it not be malicious?
If God knew I would end up in hell before I was even created, what could he possibly be "teaching" me?
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 12:08 PM)Beaker Wrote: Exactly what I have been asking....and only getting a circular argument from religious types. The reason being is because that question cannot be answered with out disrupting the fundamental basis of religion.
Quote:I'm not God, I have no idea what He was thinking.
Yet we know somehow, that his intentions are good and he is worthy of worship?
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - WhoDeyWho - 06-16-2015
Quote:I defer to Modest Mouse and other philosophers. The universe is shaped exactly like the Earth, if you go straight long enough you'll end up where you were.
Great song and all, but the universe is expanding.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - Benton - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 12:19 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Why would he make rules he knew would not be obeyed and then punish people for not obeying them? How can you consider that not to be intentional and if it is intentional how can it not be malicious?
If God knew I would end up in hell before I was even created, what could he possibly be "teaching" me?
I make rules for my kids not because I'm a jerk, but for their own well being. If you look at most of the "sins" they are for a person's well being (either their own or someone else's). Even for their time, the mitzvots were about a person's well being.
(06-16-2015, 12:22 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Yet we know somehow, that his intentions are good and he is worthy of worship?
You're here. That says something.
(06-16-2015, 12:24 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Great song and all, but the universe is expanding.
Potentially. And they're just song lyrics, but there's still some thought that the universe is round. Whether it's expanding or not doesn't matter in that regard. Round things expand and still maintain the ability for something to go completely around to the same place. If you did that at the same time, you are everywhere at once.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - bfine32 - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 12:07 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Do you have an example of scripture for which you lack a satisfactory answer?
I have a constant thirst to better understand God's word.
As I mentioned earlier in answer to the "why does God allow bad things" debate: I have studied the Augustinian theodicy (evil because of Freewill and original sin), the Irenaean Theodicy (God creates man incomplete and we grow into completeness), and the Process theory (God just put things into motion and is more of a facilitator). There is also a relatively new theory known as Open Process (The only thing that is perfect is God's love).
Like most here I do not claim to have the answers (and do not necessarily require them); I have what is called faith.
RE: Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 01:56 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't know why you keep bringing up Adam and Eve. I'm not a literalist. All I am saying is that in your argument one can go from having free will to being predestined by another being obtaining some knowledge of their future even if the two beings never communicate.
What you did today was always going to.happen because what you did today did happen. If that's not predestination, then merely having that knowledge can't be predestination.
Let me try to explain it using connect the dots as an example. Below you have six dots, 2 parallel lines of 3 dots each.
...
...
Let's say you choose (free will) to connect the first dot of each parallel line to each other . . .
...
I..
Let's say at the time the two points are connected is the future and God knows your choice. Because God has seen the future, when you make your choice you won't/can't choose any other option because that would alter the future which God knows happens. The point you choose is predetermined to God because he knows what you're going to choose. You don't have knowledge of the future so to you your choice is free will.
Now let's back up to Creation. You aren't born, yet. You have yet to have the chance to exercise your free will to choose which two dots you will connect. Before you choose the first dot, God already knows which dot you picked second eliminating other possibilities before you make your first choice.
God also knows which dot you will choose as your first dot before you're born. All the dots God knows you didn't pick first are eliminated as possibilities. When it is time for you to choose (free will) you can't/won't pick any dot but the specific dot God knows you will pick first.
God knows how all the dots of you life are connected from the first dot to the last. The last dot is Heaven or Hell. Before you're born, God knows if you will go to Heaven or Hell. So every time you exercise free will to make a choice it brings you one dot closer to the same, predetermined outcome.
Is that free will?