(09-27-2017, 03:15 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I can see why people would dislike protests at sporting events. I might not agree with those people, but it is understandable. It's more likely that people are upset with the cause and then spin a false narrative about "protesting the flag/anthem" even though it has nothing to do with either.

That said, it is amusing to see rightists all triggered over taking a knee. Whether it's before or during or after the anthem.

(09-27-2017, 03:23 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: I love how this has turned into

Supporting kneelers- Leftist Liberals

anti kneelers- Right wing conservatives




Guess what, its just another ploy to separate us even more.  And for that, I will never ever forgive that orange ******* in the WH. You can blame Obama for the whole Kapernick issue, that's fine, but this new 'kneeling' issue from this past sunday is all about trump.  **** him for bring politics into my Sunday football.   

(09-27-2017, 11:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Hell the way folks are spinning kneeling; it will soon be un-American to stand for the Anthem.

(09-27-2017, 03:23 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote:  
Supporting kneelers- Leftist Liberals

anti kneelers- Right wing conservatives

(09-27-2017, 03:33 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It's not Trump's fault that politics was brought into Sunday football. It IS his fault that it got blown up to the proportion it did this past Sunday.

(09-27-2017, 03:45 PM)Benton Wrote: Unfortunately, that's the way it's heading. Because...


Look at how it's morphed on social media. It went from 
1. nothing to 
2. 'yeah, my team better not do it' to 
3. 'my former team did it, now I'm a Cowboys fan!' to
4. 'crap....' to
5. 'I stand for the flag and kneel for the Cross! Go NASCAR!'

All Americans R granted rights 2 peaceful protests
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable-JFK

— Dale Earnhardt Jr. (@DaleJr) September 25, 2017

(09-27-2017, 03:56 PM)GMDino Wrote:

All Americans R granted rights 2 peaceful protests
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable-JFK

— Dale Earnhardt Jr. (@DaleJr) September 25, 2017

(09-27-2017, 03:50 PM)Benton Wrote: Not completely disagreeing, but Kaepernick didn't bring politics into it. He brought perceived social issues. 

Quote:TRUMP'S NFL FIGHT DATES BACK TO HIS FAILED USFL EXPERIMENT IN THE '80S
President Donald Trump's war with the NFL is big news these days, but he's been waging battles with the league for decades—when he hasn't been trying to woo it.

Over the weekend and into Monday, Trump has railed against NFL players who have chosen to kneel during the national anthem to protest oppression of African-Americans in the U.S. Rather than stopping the demonstrations, the president's insults have appeared to unify the league against the commander in chief. Trump has long chased the NFL and the league has, in turn, largely rebuked him.

In 1982, the rival United States Football League (USFL) announced it intended to start playing in the spring, outside the NFL season. Trump eventually owned the New York City-area team, the New Jersey Generals. Newsweek spoke about the USFL with author Jeff Pearlman, who has a book on the league, The Useless, that's due out in 2018. Having spoken with coaches, players, owners and just about everyone involved with the league—some 420 people in total (although not Trump himself)—it's unlikely anybody has a fuller picture of the USFL's brief life than Pearlman.

It was Trump's undying need to get into the NFL that drove the billionaire to buy his way into the upstart league in the '80s, the author said. But the big league wasn't a fan.

"They just saw him as this scumbag huckster," Pearlman told Newsweek. "He was this New York, fast-talking, kind of con-man."

In the course of Trump's NFL pursuit, he made a fair number of enemies at the USFL and helped shuttle the league to an early grave. He convinced other USFL owners to challenge the NFL directly in the fall, and then led the charge on an anti-trust lawsuit against the football giant that netted a massive...three dollars. The USFL was dead by '85. 

Here's the conversation with Pearlman, condensed and edited for clarity:

How did Trump get involved with the USFL?
The USFL started, its first season was 1983, but the planning was a little earlier and they were initially trying to get owners for different franchises; they knew obviously they needed a New York team. Their thinking was: “We need New York, we need Chicago, we need L.A.” They went to Trump, after he expressed interest. And [in] one of the very early owner meetings in San Francisco, a bunch of the owners met in a room to go over league plans. Trump wasn’t there but he was going to check in via conference call. So they’re all gathered around and the phone rings and it’s Trump. He basically says, “Yeah, so, um, I decided I’m not doing this. Sorry. See ya. Bye.” That was it.

He did not get involved then, initially, and they really felt they were screwed for a while because they needed a New York team. They got a guy named J. Walter Duncan, who was an Oklahoma oilman, to run the New York franchise. So the Generals existed the first year under J. Walter Duncan. And then Duncan didn’t want to do it anymore because he was literally flying every week from Oklahoma to New York for football. So he put the team up, Donald Trump bought it and that’s how he got in.

The thing that’s important is: His motives were ridiculously awful in hindsight. I mean, his goal was to have an NFL franchise. He tried buying the Baltimore Colts a couple years earlier, didn’t get them. He wanted an NFL franchise and he saw this as a way to do it. He talked all happy-happy about the USFL and spring football until he got the team. And as soon as he got the team he was angling in every way possible to move them to fall to take on the NFL, so his team, somehow, would be absorbed by the NFL.

It seems like his primary goal behind being a part of the USFL was to drive the entire league toward a merger. Is that a fair assessment?
No, actually, I think that’s incorrect. His entire goal was to get him an NFL team. He didn’t care how he got it. It wasn’t like, “Oh, I really hope I can lead you guys to a merger.” He didn’t give a shit about the other owners. Like, at all. Did not care. No interest, whatsoever. His goal was to get in the NFL. If it took a merger, so be it. If it took the entire USFL collapsing and he gets an [NFL] team, that’s fine too. 

Did you get any sense of why he had this obsession with having an NFL team?
Money, prestige, fame and fortune; building of the Trump name. All the reasons you would kind of figure with Donald Trump. 

The other thing about him, and this is like armchair psychiatrist…but it’s true. He’s the guy who covets what he doesn’t have. He’s a guy who sees—the NFL ownership is a ridiculously exclusive club.
He wanted in. He’s always the guy who doesn’t—you saw it when Obama made fun of him at the [White House]
Correspondents Dinner—he has bruised feelings over not being what others are. And he really wanted to be what these guys were, which was NFL ownership—sports royalty.

He’s had a few failed attempts too—he had the Bills as well, where they kind of didn’t want him in.
So he had a bunch actually. First he had the Colts, which didn’t end well. But he was very young then, so, whatever. Then, this is kind of funny actually, [in] 1988 the New England Patriots were for sale. And the Sullivan family actually sort of gave him the first chance to bid on the team. He decided against it because he didn’t want to inherit the debt that the Patriots owed. So basically Victor Kiam of Remington, the razor company, ended up buying the New England Patriots. And not that long after that [current owner] Bob Kraft bought them. It would have been the greatest investment in Donald Trump’s life because the Patriots now are the second-most-valuable team in pro football. But he didn’t do it.

Then the Bills [in 2014]. He low-balled the Bills offer. He could have had the Bills and he got outbid. The winning bid was $1.4 billion and he bid $900 million and he lost out.

There are very few NFL teams you’re getting for less than $1 billion
No. It’s funny actually, after he lost, the guy who bought the Bills—this is classic—held a press conference. The guy who bought the Bills is the same guy who owns the Buffalo Sabres and he held a press conference and Trump live-tweeted during his press conference saying how the Bills were going to be failures and it was a waste of his time and blah, blah, blah.

Quote: Follow
Donald J. Trump 

✔@realDonaldTrump
Wow. @nfl ratings are down big league. Glad I didn't get the Bills. Rather be lucky than good.
4:39 PM - Oct 10, 2014

Quote:[/url] Follow
Donald J. Trump 

✔@realDonaldTrump
Even though I refused to pay a ridiculous price for the Buffalo Bills, I would have produced a winner. Now that won’t happen.
10:11 AM - Oct 13, 2014

Getting back to the USFL: What did people in the league think of him then and what do they think of him now?
There were mixed opinions of Trump back then. On the one hand, look, he took over the New Jersey franchise and he made them really good. So people said, “Look the guy did great, he took over this franchise and he did well.” And he did, factually can’t argue that on the field the Generals were vastly improved.

But he really blew up the model. Like, the USFL model was keeping spending in check, regional growth, slowly and surely, maybe in a decade we can challenge the NFL. Maybe. And [Trump] was basically like, “To hell with that.” So, some of the guys who could afford to keep up with him were like, “All right, if this is what we gotta do, this is what we gotta do.” Smaller owners were horrified.
John Basset of the Tampa Bay Bandits who wrote that letter. You saw that letter I posted right? (Note: In the letter Bassett threatens to punch Trump if he continued to insult other owners. It is embedded below.)

Quote:

 Follow
Jeff Pearlman 

✔@jeffpearlman
If you never saw it, the late John Bassett once wrote Donald Trump—fellow USFL owner—the GREATEST LETTER EVER. Warning us from his grave ...
11:01 AM - Sep 24, 2017

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He was probably [Trump’s] arch-enemy in the USFL. Because Bassett had been through the World Football League, he owned a team in the World Football Leagueand he knew, sort of, how it worked. If you outspend yourself and you drive yourself into this bidding war with the NFL, you’re doomed to fail.
Someone asked [Bassett], “What’s the key to this league surviving?” And he said, “Every week we’re going to have nine games, one team is gonna win and one team is gonna lose.” He’s basically saying we don’t have to outspend ourselves here, it’s always going to be the same thing, someone’s going to win, someone’s going to lose. The dumbest thing we can do is ending up blowing our wad. So a lot of guys thought Trump was the guy who was blowing his wad, you know?

We touched on Trump’s beef with the NFL, but do you think that in any way inspired what he’s doing now? That elite club he was never let into, do you think that’s something that has stuck with him over the years?
Oh, I do. He’s clearly not a guy to let slights go and the NFL has rejected him repeatedly.

So, this is kind of a big thing that a lot of people didn’t know about. Trump held a secret meeting with Pete Rozelle, who was commissioner of the NFL, in 1984. At the Pierre Hotel in New York City, Trump paid for the suite, told Rozelle he wanted to meet to talk. Rozelle had known him casually over the years.
They meet and Trump is basically offering to do whatever it takes, “I’ll leave the USFL, I don’t need them, blah blah blah, to join the NFL."

Rozelle didn’t know that’s why they were meeting. I interviewed a guy who was at the meeting and he was like, “Rozelle said to him, ‘You will never be an owner in the NFL. As long as I’m affiliated with the NFL or my family is affiliated with the NFL, you will never have a team in the NFL.’” Because they just saw him as this scumbag huckster. He was this New York, fast-talking, kind of con-man. You know? He was just a huckster and they didn’t really want that.

It’s almost like that line in Titanic, “Old money, new money,” where Molly Brown was like new money so nobody wants to talk to her. Trump was new money and he was classless. There was no class to him, that’s how he was viewed by them. This classless buffoon. So there was no interest in having him as an owner in the NFL. The NFL never really wanted Trump, you know? He’s kind of [Dallas Cowboys owner] Jerry Jones without the dignity. Jerry Jones actually has some dignity. Trump does not.

Is there anything that I didn’t bring up that you think is really important, that I’m missing here?
There’s just a lot of parallels between him as a USFL owner and him as a president. I’m really being sincere. How old are you?

Twenty-six.
So, do you know who Doug Flutie is?

Of course! [Note: I would often use Flutie as quarterback in the video game Madden.]
Trump’s big thing was he got Doug Flutie. That was his big signing. Before the last season, the ’85 season, he signed Doug Flutie. And he sent a letter to the other owners saying, “This was going to be great for the league and I think everyone should pay for it—all of you guys should pay for me signing Doug Flutie.” He wanted the entire league to pay for Doug Flutie’s contract.

It reminded me so much of him saying Mexico would pay for the wall. Because the other owners are like, “No ***** way we’re paying for this contract. We’re losing money here, left and right, why are we going to pay for his contract?”

He bullied other owners. He was a bully. But somehow people went along with. They just did. They thought he knew what he was talking about, or they didn’t want to argue, or they didn’t want to get in his way. He was in meetings, USFL meetings, he was a nightmare to deal with. He would not shut up. But when other people spoke, he never listened to them. He was just like…he was the worst.

Quote:Donald Trump's latest NFL claims need some fact checking
President Donald Trump is taking shots at the NFL again. It’s a handy way of a giving people something else to be mad about in the hopes they might not notice the ham-fisted response to the devastation in Puerto Rico, a Russia investigation getting uncomfortably close to the White House, his failed political endorsement, his poor response to the diplomatic crisis with North Korea, etc.

Besides being a distraction, his latest volley, from a taped Thursday morning appearance onFox & Friends, includes a handful of incorrect facts, if not outright lies, that are worth correcting.

Claim: Ratings are way down
Ratings are down, but there are many factors, and the latest fan experience survey from J.D. Power suggests that it’s not because of protests. And nearly 203 million fans tuned in for at least part of one NFL game last season, which was a 5 percent increase over 2015, according to Kevin Draper of The New York Times.

While ratings are down overall, other factors — news coverage of the election cycle last year and of hurricane devastation early this season, viewers cutting the cord, and excessive commercials and game delays — are also key reasons for the decline.

Claim: Attendance is way down
While there have been some high-profile situations where stadiums haven’t been filled, particularly for the two Los Angeles teams, attendance hasn’t slagged off significantly. In fact, overall attendance for every NFL game this season is on pace for a total of 17.8 million, up slightly from 17.7 million the year before, according to Pro Football Reference’s data.

It is true that owners are constantly trying to find ways to get more people into the stadiums — it’s been a league-wide goal for several years now — but it’s not accurate to say attendance is “way down” as the president continues to claim.

Claim: Players “can’t dance in the end zone”
Players can not only dance in the end zone now, but they can even choreograph celebrations with teammates and use the ball as a prop. This is new for this season after the NFL decided to relax its rules penalizing players for celebrating. But it’s absolutely allowed.

Claim: Players can’t wear pink socks “relative to breast cancer”
The league’s rules governing uniforms are strict, and if a player wants to wear pink socks, they’ll be fined unless it’s October. That’s breast cancer awareness month, since broadened for overall cancer awareness, and the NFL goes pink pretty much from head to toe.

Claim: NFL owners are afraid of the players
This is one of those blustering aspersions Trump has made part of his brand, although far less offensive than some of the things he’s said in the past. Look no further than the collective bargaining agreement from 2011 to see just how much leverage owners have over players.
Owners came out with a big win over players in the CBA. Add in facts like the NFL is still the only major pro sports league with guaranteed contracts, an arbitrary discipline process that ultimately rests with the commissioner, etc., and it doesn’t take a Congressional investigation to realize who has all the power in the National Football League.

Claim: The NFL should enforce “a rule that’s been in existence for a long time”
There is no NFL rule that requires players to stand for the national anthem. In fact, teams weren’t even on the sidelines for the national anthem until 2009. The game operations manual says players “should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking.” (Emphasis added.) The league said last year that players were not required to stand for the national anthem, standing by players’ rights to express themselves.

It’s worth noting here that Trump’s Attorney General, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, was at Georgetown University earlier this week to defend free speech on college campuses, where he said “freedom of thought and speech are under attack.”

Sessions also said: "In this great land the government does not get to tell you what to think or what to say."

Claim: The NFL is disrespecting the flag and the national anthem
These protests have never been about the flag, the national anthem, law enforcement, or the military. The demonstrations are focused on racial inequality, police brutality, and oppression of people of color in the United States.

Colin Kaepernick decided to kneel during the national anthem last year as a sign of respect, which was the result of a conversation with former U.S. Army Green Beret and NFL player Nate Boyer.

If precedent holds, these won’t be the last of the president’s attacks on NFL players and teams. That makes it even more important to keep the facts straight.

(09-28-2017, 01:37 PM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.sbnation.com/2017/9/28/16378334/donald-trump-nfl-claims-fact-check



Not that Trump's supporters care if he's right or honest but just in case someone had questions....

(09-28-2017, 04:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: A couple of those ARE true, though.

Trump: ratings are down

SBNation: WRONG! They' ARE down, but not for the reasons Trump suggested.
Me: if that's the case, then the claim you should be fact checking is the WHY ratings are down, not the broad statement of ratings down.

The pink socks one is also true. Yes, they can wear pink during October, but if a player were to try another time outside October, they'd face discipline from the league.

Not that Trump haters care if he's right or honest, but just in case ...

(09-28-2017, 04:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: A couple of those ARE true, though.

Trump: ratings are down

SBNation: WRONG! They' ARE down, but not for the reasons Trump suggested.
Me: if that's the case, then the claim you should be fact checking is the WHY ratings are down, not the broad statement of ratings down.

The pink socks one is also true. Yes, they can wear pink during October, but if a player were to try another time outside October, they'd face discipline from the league.

Not that Trump haters care if he's right or honest, but just in case ...

Quote:Claim: Ratings are way down

Ratings are down, but there are many factors, and the latest fan experience survey from J.D. Power suggests that it’s not because of protests. And nearly 203 million fans tuned in for at least part of one NFL game last season, which was a 5 percent increase over 2015, according to Kevin Draper of The New York Times.

While ratings are down overall, other factors — news coverage of the election cycle last year and of hurricane devastation early this season, viewers cutting the cord, and excessive commercials and game delays — are also key reasons for the decline.

Quote:Claim: Players can’t wear pink socks “relative to breast cancer”

The league’s rules governing uniforms are strict, and if a player wants to wear pink socks, they’ll be fined unless it’s October. That’s breast cancer awareness month, since broadened for overall cancer awareness, and the NFL goes pink pretty much from head to toe.

(09-28-2017, 05:02 PM)Millhouse Wrote: The NFL has screwed up from the beginning in handling the kneeling. They should have banned it the moment it began. Or in the off-season have the rule back where teams are in the locker-room during the anthem. They have a million 'workplace' rules in effect on what players can wear or how to behave. But they caved on this and it is now backfiring on them big time.

(09-28-2017, 05:02 PM)Millhouse Wrote: The whole cause for kneeling also has failed. There is no discussion on the police because of it, or social injustices. Instead 99% of the discussion it stirred up is about patriotism and disrespecting the flag & anthem. And it is now a left vs right issue which is just a effing joke.

(09-28-2017, 05:02 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Then we have Trump who should have just kept his mouth shut about it, and it is now blown out of huge proportions because of him.

(09-28-2017, 05:02 PM)Millhouse Wrote: There is so much fail for all three sides of this, what positives can come from it now?

(09-28-2017, 05:00 PM)GMDino Wrote: Quick question Joe:

Can I be against police brutality and still support police in general? 

I shall wait with great anticipation!

Edit:  I don't need another source...the POTUS needs be more careful how he says things.

(09-28-2017, 05:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sure!  Wearing pig cop socks probably isn't the way to communicate that though.  Just like lauding a totalitarian dictator who imprisons any who dissent is probably not the best way to prove you're protesting government sanctioned oppression of others.

Quote:After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.



It baffles me that our protest is still being misconstrued as disrespectful to the country, flag and military personnel. We chose it because it’s exactly the opposite. It has always been my understanding that the brave men and women who fought and died for our country did so to ensure that we could live in a fair and free society, which includes the right to speak out in protest.

(09-28-2017, 04:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: I feel that response is a bit disingenuous.

(09-28-2017, 04:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: The reasons are given and explained that they are down from last year when they went up:



The POTUS wasn't simply speaking of the ratings of the NFL in a bubble.  He was saying it because he was angry they didn't do his bidding and stand for the anthem.  Ignoring all other factors is asinine...but feeds his need to be right and he base's need to hear they are right for agreeing with him.

(09-28-2017, 04:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: Saying "you can do it...but you'll be fined" isn't saying "you can't do it at all".  That makes Trump's statement not true.  False.  Wrong.   

(09-28-2017, 04:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: Subtle difference.  Perhaps too nuanced for the POTUS in 140 characters.  That's what happens when someone lives in a world of absolutes like Trump does when he is getting pissy with someone who dared disagree with him.

(09-28-2017, 05:00 PM)GMDino Wrote: the POTUS needs be more careful how he says things.

(09-28-2017, 05:14 PM)GMDino Wrote: Agreed.

Nonetheless his message as he himself said is about brutality...not all police.

Quote:Heck the kneeling idea after speaking with a  Green Beret and former NFL player according to his teammate Eric Reid

Quote:Kind of like a story about a rogue cop doesn't mean every policeman is rouge.

Quote:Edit:  And demanding people stand for a flag and anthem while verbally attacking a country that does the same doesn't make sense to me either.