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Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +---- Forum: P & R Archive (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-P-R-Archive) +---- Thread: Citizenship Required on 2020 census (/Thread-Citizenship-Required-on-2020-census) |
RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - GMDino - 03-27-2018 (03-27-2018, 05:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: And most don't understand how the census works. Information is to be "private" for 70 years. But there is a fear that the current government will attempt to use the information to go after non-citizens. Legal or not. (03-27-2018, 07:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Acorn was collecting data and were corrupt on multiple levels. Not quite the same as illegal aliens who are here openly breaking the law. As I said: Fear is a great/horrible tool. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Benton - 03-28-2018 (03-27-2018, 06:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I get all of that, and comprehend the ramifications of not having enough budget for everyone trying to live in a given area. However, what is being missed here, is why are they allowed to be here? They're in violation of the law, make them leave. To the bold, understood. And I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. But at the end of the day, the way our federal government works is that funds are doled out to local communities based on the number of people there. Those funds are used for a variety of things. And they're distributed largely because of the census. So the legal status is largely a side issue in regard to the fact that communities have to deal with the people there. As far as other nations, they may not. That's why they're not us. If we're going to be more than the rest of the world, then we need to be more. If we're going to use other countries as a measuring stick, we deserve to be just as bad off as them. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Griever - 03-28-2018 (03-27-2018, 07:08 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: We shouldn’t worry or care about representing illegals. If they don’t report accurately then so be it. If they report then call ICE and let them sort them out. is brown your favorite color? on topic what was the reason they stopped asking it in the first place? RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - mallorian69 - 03-28-2018 Why was the question taken off of the census forms in the first place? From what I can gather it was there every year until 1950. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - GMDino - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 08:59 AM)Griever Wrote: is brown your favorite color? (03-28-2018, 09:18 AM)mallorian69 Wrote: Why was the question taken off of the census forms in the first place? From what I can gather it was there every year until 1950. https://www.npr.org/2018/03/27/597436512/fact-check-has-citizenship-been-a-standard-census-question Quote:After a controversial decision by the Department of Commerce to add a question about U.S. citizenship to the 2020 census, White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders defended the move as nothing out of the ordinary. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Belsnickel - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 08:59 AM)Griever Wrote: is brown your favorite color? (03-28-2018, 09:18 AM)mallorian69 Wrote: Why was the question taken off of the census forms in the first place? From what I can gather it was there every year until 1950. (03-28-2018, 09:35 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.npr.org/2018/03/27/597436512/fact-check-has-citizenship-been-a-standard-census-question To actually answer the question posed and get to the "why" behind the NPR link, I will attempt an explanation. The purpose of the census is to allocate resources. Specifically, the Constitution allocates representation in Congress, but it is also used to provide money to states for education, law enforcement, and a plethora of other federally funded programs. For this constitutional purpose, the representation, it is supposed to be a literal headcount of all people within the country. Citizenship is not relevant to this and does more harm to attempts to accurately count the people as it will negatively affect reporting rates. The long form, and now the ACS, are tools used by demographers to learn more about the country. This is really where the monetary resource allocation is a big thing because it helps us understand growth patterns, etc. Since this is not constitutionally mandated, this happens every 5 years and goes out to a smaller portion. Then, statistical modelling is used to determines trends and so forth. This is actually a more accurate estimate of the people in the country than the actual census because it can take into account the flaws in the headcount system. Anyway, for the purposes of this the citizenship question is not going to cause as much as a negative impact because these social scientists can account for false/non reports in their modelling and the question can be useful in determining certain things. Until we actually amend the Constitution to allow for modelling in the census information, we need to keep it as simple as possible. The citizenship question does more harm than good for actual census purposes. It is an important question that we need answered, but the mandated decennial census should not be the place for it. Everyone in the Census Bureau would say the same thing, but listening to the experts seems to be a bad thing these days. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - bfine32 - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 12:21 AM)Benton Wrote: To the bold, understood. And I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. But at the end of the day, the way our federal government works is that funds are doled out to local communities based on the number of people there. Those funds are used for a variety of things. And they're distributed largely because of the census. So the legal status is largely a side issue in regard to the fact that communities have to deal with the people there. It also accounts for representation, which is the reason behind the question. Including non-citizens in your numbers unfairly sways the number of representation each state has; therefore, disadvantaging states that have a smaller number of illegal immigrants. Despite all the explanations provided, it still comes down to the feeble reason that I earlier asserted. If you make it a requirement folks won't do it. If they don't do it they are only hurting their economy. "Obama's coming for you guns" has been replaced with "Trump's coming for your illegals." RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Griever - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 10:08 AM)bfine32 Wrote: "Obama's coming for you guns" has been replaced with "Trump's coming for your illegals." we surely can't replace that with trumps coming for your guns, because trumpets hate facts (since trump actually said he would take guns away) RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - michaelsean - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 12:21 AM)Benton Wrote: To the bold, understood. And I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. But at the end of the day, the way our federal government works is that funds are doled out to local communities based on the number of people there. Those funds are used for a variety of things. And they're distributed largely because of the census. So the legal status is largely a side issue in regard to the fact that communities have to deal with the people there. What other nations do seems to be a rallying cry for either side depending on the issue. I for one don't care what other countries do. If I want to do something, then I see looking at how other countries do it, but the mere fact that other countries do something means nothing to me. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Belsnickel - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 10:08 AM)bfine32 Wrote: It also accounts for representation, which is the reason behind the question. Including non-citizens in your numbers unfairly sways the number of representation each state has; therefore, disadvantaging states that have a smaller number of illegal immigrants. As of right now, the courts have said that all persons, citizens and non, must be counted in the census and included for apportionment. We include many segments of non-voting persons in these figures (children, cognitively disabled, prisoners, etc.), so we would need to reevaluate those as well if we were to discuss the way counting non-voting populations dis/advantages states. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Benton - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 10:08 AM)bfine32 Wrote: It also accounts for representation, which is the reason behind the question. Including non-citizens in your numbers unfairly sways the number of representation each state has; therefore, disadvantaging states that have a smaller number of illegal immigrants. To the first bold, very fair point, which makes it a more complicated issue than just 'we've got a bunch of illegal residents, what do we do now.' And to the second, agreed. Although I would say what I hear most often is "Trump is coming for your civil rights." Along the same line, but playing to a bigger overall fear. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Belsnickel - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 04:25 PM)Benton Wrote: To the first bold, very fair point, which makes it a more complicated issue than just 'we've got a bunch of illegal residents, what do we do now.' While I would agree that there is a lot of hype at play in that and is why it is getting a lot of media attention, one of the reasons the question was removed originally was to prevent underreporting. This has been a concern for several censuses going back, including during the Obama administration. So to brush off the concern over people not being counted out of fear of answering that question as just being anti-Trump hysteria is erroneous thinking. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - bfine32 - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 04:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I would agree that there is a lot of hype at play in that and is why it is getting a lot of media attention, one of the reasons the question was removed originally was to prevent underreporting. This has been a concern for several censuses going back, including during the Obama administration. So to brush off the concern over people not being counted out of fear of answering that question as just being anti-Trump hysteria is erroneous thinking. This all goes back to my original assertion of why folks don't want it. People won't do it and in not doing so will hurt themselves. Seems like faulty logic. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Belsnickel - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 04:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This all goes back to my original assertion of why folks don't want it. People won't do it and in not doing so will hurt themselves. Seems like faulty logic. It doesn't just hurt themselves, though. It hurts entire states when people underreport. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - bfine32 - 03-28-2018 (03-28-2018, 04:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It doesn't just hurt themselves, though. It hurts entire states when people underreport. Sure does, RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Belsnickel - 03-29-2018 https://theconversation.com/democracy-is-in-danger-when-the-census-undercounts-vulnerable-populations-93027?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1522322535 RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - JustWinBaby - 03-30-2018 (03-28-2018, 04:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It doesn't just hurt themselves, though. It hurts entire states when people underreport. Well, the counterargument is if facilitiating illegals hurts federal funding.....then perhaps you shouldn't facilitate illegals. But that's just my perspective. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - 6andcounting - 03-30-2018 Less illegal immigrants will participate, but that's probably the point from Trump's perspective. Something tell's me illegal immigrants weren't filling this out regardless of one particular question so I don't know how much of an effect it would really have though. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Belsnickel - 03-30-2018 The point of the lawsuit is that the Constitution states "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons." Now, the three-fifths part has been amended out, but the rest remains valid. This, according to the Census Bureau's own website, means counting every resident, not legal resident. If they are going to make a change that is known going in will reduce the response rate, then that is not following the constitutional mandate. You don't want to include residents not here illegally? Amend the Constitution, because right now the courts have ruled that all residents be counted based on what is in the document. RE: Citizenship Required on 2020 census - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 03-30-2018 (03-30-2018, 08:57 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The point of the lawsuit is that the Constitution states "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons." Now, the three-fifths part has been amended out, but the rest remains valid. This, according to the Census Bureau's own website, means counting every resident, not legal resident. If they are going to make a change that is known going in will reduce the response rate, then that is not following the constitutional mandate. All of this is true. It does nothing to address why including the question prevents anyone from answering the census. Anyone who chooses not to do so is making their own choice, no one is forcing them. |