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The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +---- Forum: P & R Archive (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-P-R-Archive) +---- Thread: The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument (/Thread-The-Pharaoh-Exodus-God-and-the-Meme-that-started-an-argument) |
RE: The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument - Dill - 10-18-2016 (10-18-2016, 11:58 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope, I am not "reasoning" (think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic) God, not sure how you could possibly infer that from my points.The question was ironic. No I do not think you are forming judgments by a process of logic. (Not a slam, just a description. You are discussing the matter civilly and I respect your views (and you for expressing them), even if I contest them.) If you claim the Trinity is referenced throughout the Bible, then we ought to see some clear mentions in the Old Testament. And claiming three beings are one doesn't explain much. The "trinity" solution to the problem of Jesus' materiality/spirituality is a specifically Greek solution, based upon a world view which emerges AFTER most of the Old Testament is written. Paul saw the danger to the faith if Christianity is every individual's opinion of Christianity. Christianity=whatever. The problem becomes more acute when Christians hold state power and turn their definitions' on pagans and heretics. RE: The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 10-18-2016 (10-18-2016, 09:55 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: It's not about showing God. It's about proving to ourselves how much we actually want to know God and show whether we actually love him enough to go through the trials, suffering and confusion. To be clear, the bible is not hard to understand because God made it that way. The bible is hard to understand because of the differences in culture and literature and because of the fact that our "fallen nature" clouds our judgement as to what God "really" means. Ah, but that is what that verse means. Even you wrote, "His choice to have mercy or not is all his own." Exactly. That's my point. You're still under the impression you can influence His mercy after you just admitted the choice is "all his own." You're a sinner. We all are. We are all destined for hell without His mercy. He will have mercy on whom He wants. You are a sinner the same as a murderer. If God chooses to give the murderer mercy instead of you, that is His choice. Who are you to question His choice? Because God is God, if He were to show mercy to a murderer instead of a sinner like you; that's just, because God can't be unjust. It's one of those inconvenient truths Christians don't like to admit because it is another major contradiction. Read this . . . https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-59-god-unfair-romans-914-18 RE: The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 10-18-2016 (10-18-2016, 12:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And yet; unfortunately, for some reason, this is in the too hard to do block for many. "Just believe" in Scientology is the "too hard to do block" for you. Matter of fact, it is the too hard to do block with you and all religions except for one. Which means you and I agree on the vast majority of religions with one lone exception. With all the different religions throughout history, how do you know the one religion you believe is the one true religion as it claims and not some elaborate deception by Satan to condemn your soul for believing in the wrong one? The answer of course is faith. Just like every other adherent of every other religion. Is there a religion out there that doesn't ask for us to believe? That's a lot of pressure. Better choose correctly. We all know humans are fallible. Look what happened to Eve with the serpent. I have trouble picking a health insurance policy which only affects me for one year. They are a helluva lot more simple than religion. RE: The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument - Matt_Crimson - 10-19-2016 (10-18-2016, 10:38 AM)Dill Wrote: Is he whimsically picking whom he "wants to harden" too? I don't think the hardening of Pharaohs heart is too deep to understand. The idea that God literally hardened pharaohs heart is largely a Calvanist view. I don't believe God literally hardened his heart, but figuratively did. God's actions against pharaoh caused his heart to become hardened towards God because pharaoh believed he was greater than God. When God was saying "I will hardened pharaohs heart" I liken it to a judge giving someone a prison sentence in a court room and that person lashes out in anger and the judge saying "And I made him angry". The judge didn't literally make him angry, but the sentence which came from the judge made him angry, therefore the judge "made him angry". RE: The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument - Matt_Crimson - 10-19-2016 (10-18-2016, 04:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Ah, but that is what that verse means. Even you wrote, "His choice to have mercy or not is all his own." Exactly. That's my point. You're still under the impression you can influence His mercy after you just admitted the choice is "all his own." It's not an "inconvenient truth". Okay lets step away from the bible for a second and think about this in "real world" terms. Lets say you tell someone "I'll be nice to you if you give me a glass of chocolate milk". This person then comes back to you with a glass of chocolate milk, and as a result you start being nice to them. Did the person bringing you the chocolate milk FORCE you to be nice to them? The point is God is not FORCED to have mercy on us, it's just that in order for us to fully receive that mercy we must obey his will. But doing God's will does not force God to have mercy, it just allows us to receive it. A person who does not obey God and is sent to hell isn't sent to hell because God was forced to send them there. God had full control of sending them there. Basically all the bible is saying is that God is a judge that needs no jury to "do" anything and his actions are not forced by any outside being or entity. It doesn't mean God andomly chooses who to have mercy on. If God has mercy on someone there's a reason. If God doesn't have mercy on someone there's a reason. It is not random. But any reason for why God has mercy does not force God to have mercy, it's just a reason for why God did or did not have mercy, but he didn't have to as if someone told him he had too. RE: The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 10-19-2016 (10-19-2016, 10:32 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: It's not an "inconvenient truth". That's what I've been stating. "11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls-she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."" Romans 9:11-13 God chose Jacob, not Esau. Why? I don't know, but God knows. Even though God chose Jacob, not Esau, apart from anything they did good or bad; God's election is just (fair) because God can't be anything other than just. Why was it just to choose Jacob instead of Esau? I don't know, but God knows His reason even though His reason has nothing to do with Jacob's and Esau's actions or lack thereof. God's choice of Jacob over Esau isn't random because God choose Jacob for a reason. Even though we have explained the same thing, you still believe you have some influence upon whether you go to Heaven or Hell. https://gotquestions.org/elect-of-God.html Quote:Question: "Who are the elect of God?" As you wrote earlier, "God is a judge that needs no jury to "do" anything and his actions are not forced by any outside being or entity." Your actions or lack thereof have no influence upon God's mercy, the same as Jacob and Esau, because as we have both explained it is His decision alone. God chooses who He shows mercy to and as the quote above states, "God has control; He is the one who, of His own sovereign will, freely chooses those whom He will save. He not only elects those whom He will save, but He actually accomplishes their salvation. Rather than simply make salvation possible, God chooses those whom He will save and then saves them. This view puts God in His proper place as Creator and Sovereign." (10-13-2016, 08:08 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: For many Christians this is quite the conundrum because we sin daily and never really know if we've been "good enough" to get to heaven but try to have faith that we will get there, and so the possibility that we could end up "missing the mark" and going to hell scares us. Well, at least you can stop worrying. You're welcome. RE: The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument - Dill - 10-19-2016 (10-19-2016, 10:32 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Okay lets step away from the bible for a second and think about this in "real world" terms.I don't think you have much of a point here. Okay let's step back to the Bible for a second and think of this in Biblical terms. Let's say you are God and you tell someone "I'll give you eternal salvation if you recognize me as the one true God obey my many commands and if you don't you will burn in hell forever." The person then agrees to believe you are the one true God and obey your laws. Does the person obeying your laws for fear of eternal damnation "force" you to be nice. HELL NO! Because you are the almighty. No one forces you to do anything. No higher authority. And then just to as fine a point as possible on your almightyness, you choose not to "elect" him into heaven anyway, because you are who you are and your actions are just whether you keep your word or not. And the person can't complain because the creation does not judge his creator, etc. |