The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-16-2016, 09:35 AM)Devils Advocate Wrote: Nope. Jesus rode the cross; securing all a place in heaven.

Isn't this so?

All?

No. 

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2016, 09:35 AM)Devils Advocate Wrote: Nope. Jesus rode the cross; securing all a place in heaven.

Isn't this so?

This is true. All we have to do is accept the gift

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-16-2016, 11:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: This is true. All we have to do is accept the gift

What if I'm Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or a follower of Zeus before Jesus was born, or a follower of Odin and died never knowing of Jesus' existence?

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2016, 12:52 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What if I'm Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or a follower of Zeus before Jesus was born, or a follower of Odin and died never knowing of Jesus' existence?

As to those of faiths that believe in the God of Abraham but do not believe Jesus is the path to heaven or those that believed in God before the crucifixion of Christ: the answer in the Trinity. To know the father is to know the son.

As to those that followed Zeus, ect... my prayer is that the merciful God judged what was true in their heart, but there's a good chance they just returned to dust. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-16-2016, 01:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to those of faiths that believe in the God of Abraham but do not believe Jesus is the path to heaven or those that believed in God before the crucifixion of Christ: the answer in the Trinity. To know the father is to know the son.

As to those that followed Zeus, ect... my prayer is that the merciful God judged what was true in their heart, but there's a good chance they just returned to dust. 

I can't accept a religion which proposes a god would condemn the majority of souls to an eternity as dust for something as arbitrary as being born before Christ or in a part of the world which had no knowledge of Christ. That is the type of illogical logic only humans can conceive.  Not a god logical enough to create the universe. 

[Dill]

(10-16-2016, 12:52 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What if I'm Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or a follower of Zeus before Jesus was born, or a follower of Odin and died never knowing of Jesus' existence?

HELLFIRE!!  Excruciating   Extreme   Eternal!!   

Matthew 13:49-50 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers.  and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelations 14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

Revelations 20:14-16 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, Bengals fans, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur.

And NO EXCUSES!!

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2016, 04:37 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I can't accept a religion which proposes a god would condemn the majority of souls to an eternity as dust for something as arbitrary as being born before Christ or in a part of the world which had no knowledge of Christ. That is the type of illogical logic only humans can conceive.  Not a god logical enough to create the universe. 

I suppose I didn't explain the Trinity well enough. Those before the incarnate. and  resurrection that believed in God  believed in Jesus; as they are the same. So once the prophecy was fulfilled they were taken up.

As to those that haven't heard the word, this is why many support missionaries. 

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2016, 05:45 PM)Dill Wrote: HELLFIRE!!  Excruciating   Extreme   Eternal!!   

Matthew 13:49-50 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers.  and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelations 14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

Revelations 20:14-16 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, Bengals fans, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur.

And NO EXCUSES!!

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.

Well lookie there, we both gave an answer. I see you went the cynical route. Good luck with that. 

[Dill]

(10-16-2016, 06:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well lookie there, we both gave an answer. I see you went the cynical route. Good luck with that. 

I went the Biblical route, didn't fuzz anything over or deny literal meaning.

Are you saying no lake of fire for oncemore's Vikings and Greeks?

Which scripture supports your trinity clause?

[*bfine32*]

(10-17-2016, 02:19 AM)Dill Wrote: I went the Biblical route, didn't fuzz anything over or deny literal meaning.

Are you saying no lake of fire for oncemore's Vikings and Greeks?

Which scripture supports your trinity clause?

Nope, you went the cynical route and anyone that approaches the scripture as such will find "fault". The problem is that they think they can "reason" God; however, your finite mind cannot logically grasp his infinite existence. 

As to the Trinity it is throughout the bible. We are told there is one God and God, Jesus, and the holy-spirit are all used to address his being. 

My beliefs on those that perished never knowing the God of Abraham is clear; they cease to exist. My hope is God granted them their reward if their heart was true to their belief.

The "lake of fire" is reserved from those that were shown the word of God and rejected it out of pride or worse yet, mocked it. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-16-2016, 06:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I suppose I didn't explain the Trinity well enough. Those before the incarnate. and  resurrection that believed in God  believed in Jesus; as they are the same. So once the prophecy was fulfilled they were taken up.

As to those that haven't heard the word, this is why many support missionaries. 

Your explanation doesn't do anything to change my point.

You're claiming all the Jews who didn't believe Jesus is the son of God before Jesus was born are in Heaven because they believed in God, but all the Jews who didn't believe Jesus is the son of God after Jesus was born aren't in Heaven despite believing in the same God.

Again, that is so abritrary and illogical it can only be the work of humans, not a god of "infinite existence."

(10-17-2016, 12:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope, you went the cynical route and anyone that approaches the scripture as such will find "fault". The problem is that they think they can "reason" God; however, your finite mind cannot logically grasp his infinite existence. 

As to the Trinity it is throughout the bible. We are told there is one God and God, Jesus, and the holy-spirit are all used to address his being. 

My beliefs on those that perished never knowing the God of Abraham is clear; they cease to exist. My hope is God granted them their reward if their heart was true to their belief.

The "lake of fire" is reserved from those that were shown the word of God and rejected it out of pride or worse yet, mocked it. 

So you're point is if you don't believe the Bible when you read the Bible ("approaches") you won't believe the Bible when you read the Bible ("find 'fault'")?

If you didn't approach Scientology so cynically, you wouldn't find fault with Scientology.

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-15-2016, 09:48 PM)Dill Wrote: I am not a Christian, but I can tell you what "do [the Christian] God's will" means. It means follow the 10 commandments--plus turn the other cheek, suffer the children, help the poor, render under to Caesar, be a good Samaritan, cast not the first stone, and above all, recognize that Jesus is the son of god.

But that is not what the will of God means to everyone. To a lot of Christians the will of God also means preaching the word. To a lot of others the will of God isn't preaching the word but just being a "good" person. To a lot of Christians if you're not doing "all" of God's will then you're not really doing his will at all. In terms of getting to heaven how much of "Gods will" must one do to get to heaven? Everyone answers this in different ways.

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-15-2016, 09:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So you and I are condemned to Hell thanks to Adam and Eve and the way to Heaven is a secret?

Why do you think an omniscient author who knew the Bible was so "open to interpretation" didn't do a better job expressing Himself so Christians wouldn't be so confused?

No we're condemned to hell by our own actions. We don't go to hell or heaven based on what Adam and Eve did. We go to heaven on hell based on how we personally lived our own lives.

I don't think it's a matter of God not "doing a good job". I think it's a matter of God wanting to test our faith and make us seek him to not only understand the real truth concerning him but to show how much we actually care to know him.

[Dill]

(10-17-2016, 12:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope, you went the cynical route and anyone that approaches the scripture as such will find "fault". The problem is that they think they can "reason" God; however, your finite mind cannot logically grasp his infinite existence. 

As to the Trinity it is throughout the bible. We are told there is one God and God, Jesus, and the holy-spirit are all used to address his being. 

My beliefs on those that perished never knowing the God of Abraham is clear; they cease to exist. My hope is God granted them their reward if their heart was true to their belief.

The "lake of fire" is reserved from those that were shown the word of God and rejected it out of pride or worse yet, mocked it. 

You are not "reasoning" God??

Can you point me to a mention of the trinity in the Pentateuch?

Your beliefs are not the foundation of a world religion, so far as I know.  The author of Revelations, however, was instrumental in founding a world religion--Christianity--and he says the lake fire burns unbelievers for eternity. That's not "ceasing to exist."

And Paul says unbelievers don't need to see no "word"; his God is plainly evident in "creation."  No excuses. His words. Read'em.
He doesn't say everyone can "answer in his own way" as to what counts as Christianity and what happens after death. That's why he wrote all those letters--to keep the Greek and Roman churches in line.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-17-2016, 09:07 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: But that is not what the will of God means to everyone. To a lot of Christians the will of God also means preaching the word. To a lot of others the will of God isn't preaching the word but just being a "good" person. To a lot of Christians if you're not doing "all" of God's will then you're not really doing his will at all. In terms of getting to heaven how much of "Gods will" must one do to get to heaven? Everyone answers this in different ways.

How does God answer this?

(10-17-2016, 09:15 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: No we're condemned to hell by our own actions. We don't go to hell or heaven based on what Adam and Eve did. We go to heaven on hell based on how we personally lived our own lives.

I don't think it's a matter of God not "doing a good job". I think it's a matter of God wanting to test our faith and make us seek him to not only understand the real truth concerning him but to show how much we actually care to know him.

He already knows how much you care thus "showing" him is a moot point.  "Testing" your faith when He knows the test results is much ado about nothing.

Original sin is just another of the many topics Christians can't agree upon.  You are a sinner.  We are all sinners.

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Romans 9:18 NIV

God will show you mercy if He wants.  If He doesn't want to He won't.  You live under an illusion you can control what He wants, but Romans 9:18 is quite clear.  If He wants to show mercy to an unrepentent murderer instead of you, He will.

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-18-2016, 02:22 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How does God answer this?

He already knows how much you care thus "showing" him is a moot point.  "Testing" your faith when He knows the test results is much ado about nothing.

It's not about showing God. It's about proving to ourselves how much we actually want to know God and show whether we actually love him enough to go through the trials, suffering and confusion. To be clear, the bible is not hard to understand because God made it that way. The bible is hard to understand because of the differences in culture and literature and because of the fact that our "fallen nature" clouds our judgement as to what God "really" means.

Quote:Original sin is just another of the many topics Christians can't agree upon.  You are a sinner.  We are all sinners.

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Romans 9:18 NIV

God will show you mercy if He wants.  If He doesn't want to He won't.  You live under an illusion you can control what He wants, but Romans 9:18 is quite clear.  If He wants to show mercy to an unrepentent murderer instead of you, He will.

That is not what that verse means. The verse is saying that God's decision to have mercy on us is not dependent on someone else. If we follow God's will, God will have mercy on us, but he does not have mercy on us because there's some magical spell that makes him have mercy on us or because there's some higher power that makes him do it. It is ultimately His decision and no one can make him have mercy on us.

To simply put it..... All this verse is saying is that God is omnipotent and no one can make him do anything and he doesn't have to consult any governmental power to "have mercy". His choice to have mercy or not is all his own. It doesn't mean God is whimsically picking who to have or not have mercy on.

[Dill]

(10-18-2016, 09:55 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: To simply put it..... All this verse is saying is that God is omnipotent and no one can make him do anything and he doesn't have to consult any governmental power to "have mercy". His choice to have mercy or not is all his own. It doesn't mean God is whimsically picking who to have or not have mercy on.

Is he whimsically picking whom he "wants to harden" too? 

Seems like God "hardens" folks and then condemns them to everlasting torment for His decision.

And when we get to this point his ways are just too deep to fathom or question.  Just believe.

[*bfine32*]

(10-17-2016, 10:04 PM)Dill Wrote: You are not "reasoning" God??

Can you point me to a mention of the trinity in the Pentateuch?

Your beliefs are not the foundation of a world religion, so far as I know.  The author of Revelations, however, was instrumental in founding a world religion--Christianity--and he says the lake fire burns unbelievers for eternity. That's not "ceasing to exist."

And Paul says unbelievers don't need to see no "word"; his God is plainly evident in "creation."  No excuses. His words. Read'em.
He doesn't say everyone can "answer in his own way" as to what counts as Christianity and what happens after death. That's why he wrote all those letters--to keep the Greek and Roman churches in line.

Nope, I am not "reasoning" (think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic) God, not sure how you could possibly infer that from my points.

Also, I've already explaining the Trinity to you (3 beings as one); although you may not see the exact phrase in any scripture.

Paul wrote many letters and many biblical disagree with the content of a few if not most. Also many consider the book of James (no excuses read 'em) a counter to this. Paul was just a man acting on his interpretation of the words and his teachings.

[GMDino]

To be fair to Larry (and this not a criticism of his point) there is a LOT of things we "believe" that are not in the bible literally.

Some accept them because they are BASED on scripture.  Some reject them because they are "man's" interpretation of scripture.

[*bfine32*]

(10-18-2016, 10:38 AM)Dill Wrote: And when we get to this point his ways are just too deep to fathom or question.  Just believe.

And yet; unfortunately, for some reason, this is in the too hard to do block for many.

You are not the first to have questions or doubts. These questions have been asked and attempted to be answered for years; doubtfully a couple guys on a sports message board are going to find the definitive answer.

But if you want to read I recommend John Hick's views on St Augustine and St Irenaean