The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument

[GMDino]

All moved to its own thread.  

(09-11-2016, 12:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: This morning's reading concerned Moses calling god out for threatening to wipe out the Israelites for going away from his ways while wandering through the desert after he promised them salvation.

(09-11-2016, 12:43 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Because that wouldn't guarantee the release of the Israelites. There's more to it than that but that's the simple answer. 

Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk

(09-15-2016, 02:42 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yeah, it is funny how amazingly difficult doing one thing can be when you're omnipotent and capable of doing all things. 

Maybe instead of hardening Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't release the Israelites for His own glory after Pharaoh agreed to free them He could have instead softened Pharaoh's heart which would have prevented so much death and suffering. But, then He couldn't show everyone what a badass He was for His own glory. What is a deity to do with all those plagues and no place to go? Have you ever tried to return a plague to The Plague Store where you bought it?  They only give you store credit towards natural disasters and miscellaneous Acts of God . . . like making Jesus' image appear on a grilled cheese sandwich. I'm not sure why the biggest badass on the block needed to prove anything to something as insignificant as humans. 

Oh, and so much for Pharaoh's free will. 

Pharaoh: "Okay Moses, I'll let your people go. "

God: You will not let Moses' people go. 

Pharaoh: "Moses, I will not let your people go."

So God could guarantee the Israelites couldn't be released, but couldn't guarantee they would be released?  And here we all thought the original Jedi mind trick happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away on a sleepy, little planet called Tatooine. Mind blown. 

(09-15-2016, 01:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: First, Pharaoh's heart was already hardened prior to God hardening it (Exodus 7:13, 22; Ex 8:15, 19, 32) so it's not like God had to do all tha tmuch to harden it. Pharoah was not a kind and benevolent dictator. He was a cruel and brutal man who had no qualms about murdering millions of newborn baby boys simply to keep his SLAVES from rising up.

Secondly, yes, God wanted to display His power so that the God's name would be proclaimed throughout the earth.

Lastly, God could've softened Pharaoh's heart, but you forget that after FINALLY letting the Israelites go free, Pharaoh changed his mind and went after them. So maybe God, being omniscient and all, knew that if he softened Pharaoh's heart, it wouldn't last long and Pharoah would eventually change his mind.


I don't mind continuing this, but if you are REALLY interested in discussing this further, I think it best to do so in its own thread so that we might let this thread continue to be about memes, jokes, etc.

(09-15-2016, 03:09 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: This is a joke. 

He can create the universe and everything in it out of nothing. He can create a man out of dust and a woman from a rib bone. He can flood the entire Earth. He can part the Red Sea. He can rise from the dead three days after dying. He impregnated His own virgin mother who gave birth to Him. And many more miracles. 

But, He can't make one of His asshole kids behave and stop bothering His favorite kids in the daycare He owns and operates. 

If He did know softening Pharaoh's heart would only be temporary then soften his heart again. And if the effects of softening Pharaoh's heart came with an expiration date then there is a limit to magical powers which means he isn't omnipotent. If God can do all things then he could have softened Pharoah's heart permanently. 

I find this hilarious. 

(09-16-2016, 02:57 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Of course you do. You hate anything religious.

The story wasn't just about God and Pharaoh nor just Pharaoh and the Israelites. There was more involved than in just freeing the Israelites. If you could stop hating for just a moment, you might recognize that. Of course, this would mean you wouldn't get to bash a religion and may actually understand it a little bit better so I won't hold my breath. 

Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk

(09-16-2016, 06:38 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Only the explanations of the contradictions are complicated. Free will is a central theme of the Bible and yet here is a blatant example of God usurping Pharaoh's free will. And why? For God's glory. How did God earn that glory?  Demonstrating his power via the plagues which included murdering first born children. Murder violates one of His commandments which prompts another complicated explanation about how it is impossible for God to sin. 

Laughing at the contradictions in BS stories written by men to explain something they claim can't be fully comprehended is humor, not hatred. Nor does it mean God doesn't exist. I don't know if there is a god, but I'm certain stories like Exodus are BS. I don't believe in a book (many) Christians seem to believe is the only way a heathen like me can learn morals. But, killing people (to include infants) for one's own glory is immoral. So if I'm going to believe in a God, it's going to be a god who would soften Pharaoh's heart to the suffering of others. Not harder his heart IOT cause more suffering. When I'm more moral than your god something is wrong with the instruction manual. 

If God wanted me to believe a book filled with contradictions and devoid of logic then he shouldn't have made me this way. If God will condemn me for not believing nonsense then he isn't much of a god anyway. It wouldn't hurt if he started acting more Godly and less like a brat throwing a temper tantrum. 

Can you imagine the hilarity which would ensue if we raised our kids like God?

"Hey, Timmy, I want you to take your little brother out to the backyard, sacrifice the family pet, then kill your brother to prove your obedience to me. Mkay?"

(09-20-2016, 04:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is why man was forbidden to eat from the tree of knowledge.

You have to be stupid to fall for that stuff.

(09-21-2016, 10:00 AM)PhilHos Wrote: I was going to point out that you're wrong but then I remembered that facts don't matter to you when it comes to religion bashing.

Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk

Let's move the argument discussion here kids.

[Vas Deferens]

'Facts' cited in religion. Yeah. Virgin birth and all.

[*PhilHos*]

Appreciate the effort, Dino, but clearly I'm too stupid to have an intelligent discussion with people smart enough to label billions of people throughout history stupid which includes many scientists and others that used to be thought of as highly intelligent.

Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-21-2016, 10:28 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Appreciate the effort, Dino, but clearly I'm too stupid to have an intelligent discussion with people smart enough to label billions of people throughout history stupid which includes many scientists and others that used to be thought of as highly intelligent.

Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk

I don't think religious people are stupid.  Both my parents are very religious and they're both very intelligent.  They're hardly the only examples I know.  I get why people are religious, it explains what happens after you die.  The inevitability of our own demise is the most terrifying thing, so terrifying that most people cannot even bear to seriously contemplate it.  Religion is a soothing balm on that immense discomfort.  

[Belsnickel]

(09-21-2016, 10:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't think religious people are stupid.  Both my parents are very religious and they're both very intelligent.  They're hardly the only examples I know.  I get why people are religious, it explains what happens after you die.  The inevitability of our own demise is the most terrifying thing, so terrifying that most people cannot even bear to seriously contemplate it.  Religion is a soothing balm on that immense discomfort.  

Indeed. It helps in that way, it helps in providing a community for people that may not otherwise have one. For those that feel unloved or unwelcome it can provide a comfort knowing that something does care.

There are a number of reasons why people have faith. There are intelligent people, and idiots, that have faith, and the same goes for a lack thereof. There are kind and caring people, and assholes, with faith, and again the same goes for a lack thereof. Takes all kinds.

[*bfine32*]

Heck, I'd like to get in on the discussion, but I'm not sure what we are discussing.

Are we discussing Exodus or religion and folks views on it?

[*bfine32*]

(09-21-2016, 10:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't think religious people are stupid.  Both my parents are very religious and they're both very intelligent.  They're hardly the only examples I know.  I get why people are religious, it explains what happens after you die.  The inevitability of our own demise is the most terrifying thing, so terrifying that most people cannot even bear to seriously contemplate it.  Religion is a soothing balm on that immense discomfort.  

If I did not believe, this is the approach I'd like to think I would have and would encourage all non-believers (not saying you are) to follow this model.

I do not understand why many are compelled to mock god; as a believer, I am taught it is the one sin, for which, you cannot be forgiven.

I pray/hope that even the non-believer will have a final chance (judgement day) to accept Christ.

I appreciate many things in the bible do not make sense to the finite mind.

[Bengalzona]

Generally in the theology, God did not cause Pharaoh to pursue the Israelites. He merely stopped intervening with Pharaoh and let Pharoah's existing impulse (pursuing the Israelites) return. It is sort of like God saying, "Okay. You wanna chase after them? Go ahead and see what happens.". This would be interpreted by the Israelites (namely Moses who is attributed as writing the Book of Exodus) as God 'making Pharaoh mad at them again', or 'hardening his heart', in their view. In the theology, God's intervention into Pharaoh's free will was in softening Pharaoh's heart in the first place so that he would release the Israelites. This intervention, pending the Pharoah's actions/reactions had the potential of being a good act for everyone involved (Pharaoh sees the first plague, releases the Israelites, they happily go their way, Pharaoh happily reigns for many years and is succeeded by his first-born son, etc.).

There are some Christians who disagree with this point of view and want to take the story at face-value as written (i.e. God manipulated Pharaoh like a puppet to prove a point). I can't really address that point with those people because I don't agree with it. It leads to some core disputes among Christians about God's sovereign will and His revealed will as well as the concept of predetermination/predestination, some real hot button topics in the religion.

[Bengalzona]

(09-21-2016, 11:08 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Indeed. It helps in that way, it helps in providing a community for people that may not otherwise have one. For those that feel unloved or unwelcome it can provide a comfort knowing that something does care.

There are a number of reasons why people have faith. There are intelligent people, and idiots, that have faith, and the same goes for a lack thereof. There are kind and caring people, and assholes, with faith, and again the same goes for a lack thereof. Takes all kinds.

Faith is a choice, IMO. It is something that people choose to believe despite lack of evidence or even evidence to the contrary. There is growing evidence that we humans are 'pre-wired' to have this instinct as there are physical, emotional and mental benefits to having faith. It is generally something that helps us in life as individuals.

[hollodero]

(09-21-2016, 11:34 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I do not understand why many are compelled to mock god; as a believer, I am taught it is the one sin, for which, you cannot be forgiven.

Well, as a non-believer I simply do not believe that.

[GMDino]

(09-21-2016, 12:03 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Faith is a choice, IMO. It is something that people choose to believe despite lack of evidence or even evidence to the contrary. There is growing evidence that we humans are 'pre-wired' to have this instinct as there are physical, emotional and mental benefits to having faith. It is generally something that helps us in life as individuals.

Is it?  I'd agree once we are "of age" but I didn't have a choice when I was a child.  I was taken to church, sent to Catholic school, etc.

So was my mother.  (My dad converted to marry her.)

So were her parents.

So were my kids. Although I did raise them to question things more than I was raised to. Both are non-religious. My daughter is pretty much straight up atheist at 18.

Yet now that I am older and a doubter those same religious people tell me I should have "faith" when they directly forced it into me to being with. (Not a pedophile priest joke.)

[Belsnickel]

(09-21-2016, 12:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: Is it?  I'd agree once we are "of age" but I didn't have a choice when I was a child.  I was taken to church, sent to Catholic school, etc.

So was my mother.  (My dad converted to marry her.)

So were her parents.

So were my kids. Although I did raise them to question things more than I was raised to. Both are non-religious. My daughter is pretty much straight up atheist at 18.

Yet now that I am older and a doubter those same religious people tell me I should have "faith" when they directly forced it into me to being with. (Not a pedophile priest joke.)

Yes, it is a choice. You were forced into religion, but your faith was a choice.

[*bfine32*]

(09-21-2016, 12:19 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, as a non-believer I simply do not believe that.

..and I believe there is still time.

[GMDino]

(09-21-2016, 12:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yes, it is a choice. You were forced into religion, but your faith was a choice.

Really?

When every adult was telling me I'd burn in hell for all eternity?

I suppose I could have said I'd prefer that.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-21-2016, 12:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: Is it?  

Yes.

[Bengalzona]

(09-21-2016, 12:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: Is it?  I'd agree once we are "of age" but I didn't have a choice when I was a child.  I was taken to church, sent to Catholic school, etc.

So was my mother.  (My dad converted to marry her.)

So were her parents.

So were my kids.  Although I did raise them to question things more than I was raised to.  Both are non-religious.  My daughter is pretty much straight up atheist at 18.

Yet now that I am older and a doubter those same religious people tell me I should have "faith" when they directly forced it into me to being with. (Not a pedophile priest joke.)

What you describe is religious indoctrination. But religious indoctrination is different than actual faith. Even when someone has been indoctrinated by a religion, there still comes a point where they are compelled within to decide "Am I going to believe this?". They have to make a choice. Indoctrination may influence that choice, but the choice is always there. Someone may outwardly appear to 'go along' with a religion, but no human knows their inner thoughts. A human soul will always be free, even if the person is not. You are living proof of that, my friend.

This hits upon a couple things that I think are widely misunderstood (and abused):
1) You cannot force/coerce/manipulate people into believing something. You can force them to pretend to believe something, to 'play the part'.
2) Faith is a personal thing. It is not a group thing. Religion is a group thing. But not everyone within a religion has faith (i.e. actually believes what the religion ascribes itself to).

[GMDino]

(09-21-2016, 12:55 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: What you describe is religious indoctrination. But religious indoctrination is different than actual faith. Even when someone has been indoctrinated by a religion, there still comes a point where they are compelled within to decide "Am I going to believe this?". They have to make a choice. Indoctrination may influence that choice, but the choice is always there. Someone may outwardly appear to 'go along' with a religion, but no human knows their inner thoughts. A human soul will always be free, even if the person is not. You are living proof of that, my friend.

This hits upon a couple things that I think are widely misunderstood (and abused):
1) You cannot force/coerce/manipulate people into believing something. You can force them to pretend to believe something, to 'play the part'.
2) Faith is a personal thing. It is not a group thing. Religion is a group thing. But not everyone within a religion has faith (i.e. actually believes what the religion ascribes itself to).

Exactly.  But far too many never get to that point BECAUSE of the indoctrination.  And those that DO choose to question their faith are presented with...more indoctrination in the form of religious "facts".

I'm totally cool with each person's faith being their own.  Mine has ebbed and flowed for years now.  I have different ideas about what to believe from time to time.  But let's be clear, I didn't have a choice.  Left to my own devices with no religious education I may have reached a "there must be something bigger" moment when I was younger and then abandoned it as I grew and became more educated.  But that was not an option.  It was believe or burn.  And if you get that put into your head long enough even adult doubts can get squelched.

And that's not to bash anyone who still believes what they were told/taught.  But it WAS what you were taught...and now you still have faith that it is true.

[Vas Deferens]

(09-21-2016, 10:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't think religious people are stupid.  Both my parents are very religious and they're both very intelligent.  They're hardly the only examples I know.  I get why people are religious, it explains what happens after you die.  The inevitability of our own demise is the most terrifying thing, so terrifying that most people cannot even bear to seriously contemplate it.  Religion is a soothing balm on that immense discomfort.  

Not sure what is so terrifying about accepting the obvious.  Of all the humans beings ever created, non have proven to be immortal.   p value?

(09-21-2016, 11:34 AM)bfine32 Wrote: If I did not believe, this is the approach I'd like to think I would have and would encourage all non-believers (not saying you are) to follow this model.

I do not understand why many are compelled to mock god; as a believer, I am taught it is the one sin, for which, you cannot be forgiven.

I pray/hope that even the non-believer will have a final chance (judgement day) to accept Christ.

I appreciate many things in the bible do not make sense to the finite mind.

In my opinion, no one mocks society more than the religious extremists.  Pushing their agendas upon everyone.  christians, muslims, jews.  All feel that everyone should just bow down to their delicate needs.  You want to believe a bunch of bullshit?  Go for it.  But keep it to yourself and stop shoving it down everyones throats.

[xxlt]

(09-21-2016, 02:51 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Not sure what is so terrifying about accepting the obvious.  Of all the humans beings ever created, non have proven to be immortal.   p value?


In my opinion, no one mocks society more than the religious extremists.  Pushing their agendas upon everyone.  christians, muslims, jews.  All feel that everyone should just bow down to their delicate needs.  You want to believe a bunch of bullshit?  Go for it.  But keep it to yourself and stop shoving it down everyones throats.

Exactly. Religion is like a penis. It is great if you are really proud of yours and think it is the best one in the world. But, when you start waving it around in public and trying to cram it down people's throats, bad things are going to happen.

[Benton]

(09-21-2016, 02:51 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote:  
In my opinion, no one mocks society more than the religious extremists.  Pushing their agendas upon everyone.  christians, muslims, jews.  All feel that everyone should just bow down to their delicate needs.  You want to believe a bunch of bullshit?  Go for it.  But keep it to yourself and stop shoving it down everyones throats.

Most groups — to a degree — want the society they are a part of to reflect their beliefs. The majority of the time it's a far cry from asking anyone to bow down. And even if 9-out-of-10 times the majority of the people in a culture agree, that tenth time isn't always cut and dry among subgroups.