Mass shootings

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-01-2018, 01:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The problem right now is that the facilities we have for this don't have the resources to treat mental disorders. They are essentially prisons in their own right. I took advantage of an opportunity to tour such a facility after my experience on the jury. We have a facility nearby that handles juveniles and adults. After the trial of which I was a part, I wrote to an elected official and we were able to tour the place. It's not a policy area I am well versed in, but I became a bit more of an advocate for these issues after seeing the place.

Yep......must not be much profit in it.

I've never toured one.....we have one up the road here that is a "state hospital".

[Belsnickel]

(03-01-2018, 01:51 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Yep......must not be much profit in it.

I've never toured one.....we have one up the road here that is a "state hospital".

I got to tour these two places:

http://www.ccca.dbhds.virginia.gov/
http://www.wsh.dbhds.virginia.gov/

They are right next to each other and so often seen as one big complex. Access is usually restricted, so it's not surprising for you to have never toured one. My work in policy has caused me to make some acquaintances in government positions, though.

[BengalHawk62]

(03-01-2018, 01:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The problem right now is that the facilities we have for this don't have the resources to treat mental disorders. They are essentially prisons in their own right. I took advantage of an opportunity to tour such a facility after my experience on the jury. We have a facility nearby that handles juveniles and adults. After the trial of which I was a part, I wrote to an elected official and we were able to tour the place. It's not a policy area I am well versed in, but I became a bit more of an advocate for these issues after seeing the place.

Lets change that then. Dump the resources into these facilities. Better trained staff, more staff, better technology....whatever it takes. 

[Vas Deferens]

(03-01-2018, 02:00 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Lets change that then. Dump the resources into these facilities. Better trained staff, more staff, better technology....whatever it takes. 

Seems like a 'job creator' too.  

Nevermind.  We've got shells to to drop in the desert.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-01-2018, 02:00 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Lets change that then. Dump the resources into these facilities. Better trained staff, more staff, better technology....whatever it takes. 

Didn't we have an unholy union of conservatives not wanting to fund them, and liberals not thinking it was right to institutionalize them or am I remembering wrong?

[Vas Deferens]

Kroger to Stop Selling Guns to Buyers Under 21[url=https://www.wsj.com/articles/kroger-to-stop-selling-guns-to-buyers-under-21-1519911901][/url]


************* Kroger selling guns just down the aisle from the pharmacy.


unreal

[*michaelsean*]

(03-01-2018, 02:15 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Kroger to Stop Selling Guns to Buyers Under 21[url=https://www.wsj.com/articles/kroger-to-stop-selling-guns-to-buyers-under-21-1519911901][/url]


************* Kroger selling guns just down the aisle from the pharmacy.


unreal

I hear Walgreens is also. And Starbucks. McDonalds probably will too.

[Vas Deferens]

(03-01-2018, 02:38 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I hear Walgreens is also. And Starbucks.  McDonalds probably will too.

whole foods only sells free trade responsibly sourced munitions where 15% of the school shootings go back to local suppliers. 

[masterpanthera_t]

Not sure how or where this ties into this topic but since we've broached the subject about institutionalizing people possibly against their will or for non-sociopathic mental health issues (i.e not so much a danger to society as much as to themselves), does anyone here with more expertise on the subject want to tie-in the for-profit prison system we've been seeing an enormous growth in the last couple decades or so? If I get some time I can come back with my own take on this later.

[*PhilHos*]

(03-01-2018, 02:00 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Lets change that then. Dump the resources into these facilities. Better trained staff, more staff, better technology....whatever it takes. 

And DON'T MAKE THEM PRISONS. I mean, in the sense that their primary purpose should be the treatment of mental health disorders. It shouldn't just be a lock-them-up-throw-away-the-key kind of thing. If they're beyond hope or you just want to lock them up, then just put them in prison.

[BengalHawk62]

(03-01-2018, 05:51 PM)PhilHos Wrote: And DON'T MAKE THEM PRISONS. I mean, in the sense that their primary purpose should be the treatment of mental health disorders. It shouldn't just be a lock-them-up-throw-away-the-key kind of thing. If they're beyond hope or you just want to lock them up, then just put them in prison.

I keep picturing Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.  Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's the first mental picture that keeps popping up when this is being mentioned and talked about.

[Belsnickel]

(03-01-2018, 02:00 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Lets change that then. Dump the resources into these facilities. Better trained staff, more staff, better technology....whatever it takes. 

(03-01-2018, 02:07 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Didn't we have an unholy union of conservatives not wanting to fund them, and liberals not thinking it was right to institutionalize them or am I remembering wrong?

(03-01-2018, 05:51 PM)PhilHos Wrote: And DON'T MAKE THEM PRISONS. I mean, in the sense that their primary purpose should be the treatment of mental health disorders. It shouldn't just be a lock-them-up-throw-away-the-key kind of thing. If they're beyond hope or you just want to lock them up, then just put them in prison.

Phil kind of hit the nail on the head for the issues most people have with in-patient treatment centers. With rare exceptions, these institutions should be short term facilities. It can't be denied that some people will need to be in there for the long haul, but that's often what ends up happening with them when it isn't necessarily needed.

[StLucieBengal]

(03-01-2018, 07:05 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Phil kind of hit the nail on the head for the issues most people have with in-patient treatment centers. With rare exceptions, these institutions should be short term facilities. It can't be denied that some people will need to be in there for the long haul, but that's often what ends up happening with them when it isn't necessarily needed.

I replied to this post because it was the shortest.

You and others mentioned before that you don’t want people’s rights stripped away on these asylums. I agree and like Wyche I certainly do not want electro shock therapy asylums doing crazy stuff.

That being said..... they should be very difficult to get out. Society needs these people, even the ones with moderate mental health issues, who could probably make it in society with a cocktail of multiple medications off the streets. The reliance on prescription medication to treat these issues is way too high.

Shouldn’t need a pharmacy to make it through life. People who are in a constant altered state are dangerous.

[GMDino]

(03-01-2018, 11:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I replied to this post because it was the shortest.  

You and others mentioned before that you don’t want people’s rights stripped away on these asylums.   I agree and like Wyche I certainly do not want electro shock therapy asylums doing crazy stuff.

That being said.....   they should be very difficult to get out.   Society needs these people, even the ones with moderate mental health issues,  who could probably make it in society with a cocktail of multiple medications off the streets.    The reliance on prescription medication to treat these issues is way too high.  

Shouldn’t need a pharmacy to make it through life.   People who are in a constant altered state are dangerous.

Some people DO need their medication.  Unless you are a doctor (universal you...not you personally) you can't say what they should or should not be on to "make it through".  Just like jail, locking someone up in an asylum should be something we  take very seriously and regulated very heavily to protect the people that go in there and to help them get out if they can.

And I'll be honest:  Every time I see you say this I remember that you still think transgender people have a mental disorder and assume you would want them in asylums too.


Just jades my responses to your posts on this subject.

Am I right?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-01-2018, 05:51 PM)PhilHos Wrote: And DON'T MAKE THEM PRISONS. I mean, in the sense that their primary purpose should be the treatment of mental health disorders. It shouldn't just be a lock-them-up-throw-away-the-key kind of thing. If they're beyond hope or you just want to lock them up, then just put them in prison.

(03-01-2018, 07:05 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Phil kind of hit the nail on the head for the issues most people have with in-patient treatment centers. With rare exceptions, these institutions should be short term facilities. It can't be denied that some people will need to be in there for the long haul, but that's often what ends up happening with them when it isn't necessarily needed.

Both excellent points.  There should be options, or tiers, that makes release contingent on continued, compulsory treatment.  Many mentally ill people will go off their meds if left to their own devices.  Ongoing treatment would help offset that.

[BmorePat87]

(03-01-2018, 11:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I replied to this post because it was the shortest.  

You and others mentioned before that you don’t want people’s rights stripped away on these asylums.   I agree and like Wyche I certainly do not want electro shock therapy asylums doing crazy stuff.

That being said.....   they should be very difficult to get out.   Society needs these people, even the ones with moderate mental health issues,  who could probably make it in society with a cocktail of multiple medications off the streets.    The reliance on prescription medication to treat these issues is way too high.  

Shouldn’t need a pharmacy to make it through life.   People who are in a constant altered state are dangerous.

Since you're confused on what constitutes a "radical" position, believing that anyone with a moderate mental illness who takes medication should be institutionalized is "radical". 

It's just complete out of line with any current research and based solely on ignorance. YOu're essentially condemning anyone who takes medicine for anxiety or depression to a life locked up in a hospital simply because you feel that their medicine makes them a threat. 

[Belsnickel]

(03-01-2018, 11:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Both excellent points.  There should be options, or tiers, that makes release contingent on continued, compulsory treatment.  Many mentally ill people will go off their meds if left to their own devices.  Ongoing treatment would help offset that.

Absolutely. This compulsory outpatient treatment is an option in many places, but if someone doesn't comply then inpatient it is. That was actually what made our decision for us in the case I was a juror for. The three options we initially had were that she be let free, she be held in the facility, or she be entered into a compulsory outpatient program with the understanding that if she didn't keep with it she would be admitted. She said on the stand that she would not cooperate with that program. The judge instructed us to ignore that option and it was clear she needed treatment.

That was an extremely difficult thing to do, but that was due process for this scenario. I have no objections to that sort of system, but we have to recognize that the funding isn't there to make these work the way they should. That woman needed help, but the system had also failed her in a number of ways that I could see.

Anyway, I'll stop making this thread into a discussion on this issue.

[*Nately120*]

I don't feel like dusting off my DSM-IV right now, but I find it bitterly amusing that we are discussing upping the focus on mental illness and institutionalizing the mentally ill while our president shows signs that he's a delusional/pathological liar who could be also be some cocktail of psychopathic, sociopathic, and sexually-related disorders.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-02-2018, 12:25 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Since you're confused on what constitutes a "radical" position, believing that anyone with a moderate mental illness who takes medication should be institutionalized is "radical". 

It's just complete out of line with any current research and based solely on ignorance. YOu're essentially condemning anyone who takes medicine for anxiety or depression to a life locked up in a hospital simply because you feel that their medicine makes them a threat. 

Yeah, after heart issues at a very early age, I developed a rather severe case of anxiety.  I was in and out of ERs for the better part of 3 years with what was finally diagnosed as panic disorder.  These panic attacks are no joke.  I've gotten up and left in the 4th inning of a Reds game, left work.....it was really becoming a huge detriment to my normal life.  I finally got on a medication that has pretty much wiped out those frightening panic attacks, and I am not "buzzed" or impaired.  I feel normal again.  I have a prescription for low dose Xanax that I take as needed......if I know I'm going in a large crowd, I take one.  If I feel panic coming on (which is exceedingly rare these days), I take one.  I manage to function just fine......naturally, I'm an advocate for treating mental disorders, and if a person is a danger to themselves or others, I am for admitting them until they can get the help they need, and getting "fixed".

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-02-2018, 02:11 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't feel like dusting off my DSM-IV right now, but I find it bitterly amusing that we are discussing upping the focus on mental illness and institutionalizing the mentally ill while our president shows signs that he's a delusional/pathological liar who could be also be some cocktail of psychopathic, sociopathic, and sexually-related disorders.

That's a whole 'nother can o' worms......