Coronavirus

[*michaelsean*]

(04-20-2020, 08:26 AM)hollodero Wrote: You mean "teabaggers"? OK. I would use different words, but have a hard time getting too indignant about that.

Since you asked "since when have liberals disdain for protests", I deem it an acceptable answer to state that everyone should feel disdain for this particular display of silliness. And the post got it basically right. These people do not care about reason or their community, they care about Trumptrumptrump and liberal governors and pure tribalism. It is just stupid. The "slur" doesn't change that.

No but the slur was in reference to another group that didn’t protest during a virus. And again, people are protesting in Ohio and Utah.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-19-2020, 11:44 PM)michaelsean Wrote: On #4. Did Fauci say something similar around that time or no? I see people putting up quotes from him, but I have no idea what’s true.

Fauci recently said implementing social distancing sooner would have undoubtedly saved more lives and Trump had him walk those comments back the next day. Fauci has to walk a tightrope between telling the truth and supporting Trump’s BS.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-20-2020, 09:33 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Fauci recently said implementing social distancing sooner would have undoubtedly saved more lives and Trump had him walk those comments back the next day. Fauci has to walk a tightrope between telling the truth and supporting Trump’s BS.

Yeah but it looks like even on the snopes thing Pat posted, he said on Feb 29th that it wasn't yet necessary.  

[hollodero]

(04-20-2020, 08:46 AM)michaelsean Wrote: No but the slur was in reference to another group that didn’t protest during a virus.

Can't really disagree with that. I admittedly have a hard time to assess such sayings. I found the American tone to be extraordinarily crude to begin with. This isn't a shot at Americans, it just makes it hard to determine for me what is over the top and what isn't, language-wise.
I do think however that one (actually pretty common) harsh word shouldn't take away from the overall jist of the post. Which is one I have to agree with, even though I'd probably put it in different words.

(04-20-2020, 08:46 AM)michaelsean Wrote: And again, people are protesting in Ohio and Utah.

I don't know about that. Who is protesting there? Conservatives, liberals, anyone?
--- But no matter who, those are idiots as well. That isn't a political issue, it's an intelligence issue. When conservatives are protesting, one can say it's idiotic, even a liberal should be able to do so. Same goes for anyone else protesting and anyone else commenting. It just is idiotic in any case, period.

What does make it political for me is Trump spurring those (actually "conservative") protesters on. No democrat does that.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-17-2020, 11:53 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: At that point it was more likely the flu. But, I’ve got the same problem as a provider; I’m curious, but I can’t test. They’ve got me in a tent in a parking lot wearing full PPE examining patients with respiratory symptoms with limited resources, but I can’t test any of them for this coronavirus. Best I can do is give them a phone number where they can be screened. If they meet the testing protocol they will be given an appointment to be tested in a different tent across town. But, the people at that tent aren’t providers so they can’t do any treatment or diagnosis anyone with anything. So they can test, but not treat. I can treat, but not test. It’s f’n stupid and that’s just the tip of the stupidity iceberg.

I forgot to get back to this.  They were tested for the flu ad it was negative.  Now I imagine you can't test for "the flu", but you have to test for suspected strains.  Would it be possible there was a flu virus they didn't know was here and didn't test for it?

[*michaelsean*]

(04-20-2020, 09:40 AM)hollodero Wrote: Can't really disagree with that. I admittedly have a hard time to assess such sayings. I found the American tone to be extraordinarily crude to begin with. This isn't a shot at Americans, it just makes it hard to determine for me what is over the top and what isn't, language-wise.
I do think however that one (actually pretty common) harsh word shouldn't take away from the overall jist of the post. Which is one I have to agree with, even though I'd probably put it in different words.



I don't know about that. Who is protesting there? Conservatives, liberals, anyone?
--- But no matter who, those are idiots as well. That isn't a political issue, it's an intelligence issue. When conservatives are protesting, one can say it's idiotic, even a liberal should be able to do so. Same goes for anyone else protesting and anyone else commenting. It just is idiotic in any case, period.

What does make it political for me is Trump spurring those (actually "conservative") protesters on. No democrat does that.

Personally I think 99% of all protesting is a waste of time.  Protesting Trump or really any president?  Who are you trying to tell what?  That a lot of people don't like the policies of a President?  Thanks for letting me know.

The people who march in front of an abortion clinic?  I didn't know people were against abortion.  Thank God they were there to inform me. 

Mike DeWine excluded political protests from the lockdown.

Just because a state gives the governor the authority to do things, it doesn't mean that authority is actually legal.  The tenth amendment is a great thing, but it does say "The powers not delegated to the United States". The first amendment is delegated to the US, and as best as I can understand extended to the states by the fourteenth amendment.  I think the ones in Mississippi who broke up the drive in church services are in trouble for sure.  
 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-20-2020, 09:42 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I forgot to get back to this.  They were tested for the flu ad it was negative.  Now I imagine you can't test for "the flu", but you have to test for suspected strains.  Would it be possible there was a flu virus they didn't know was here and didn't test for it?

The simple answer to your question is, yes. Although it would still most likely be strain A or B, a subtype could mutate making testing less accurate.

Most places have rapid antigen testing for the flu. Similar to your rapid strep screen. It is quicker, cheaper, and provides results faster. Plus you can perform more than one test at a time. But, the test we use has a false negative rate of 30-40% which means 3-4 patients out of every 10 has the flu despite the test telling you they don’t. A negative flu test doesn’t rule out the flu.

It is still recommended you treat the patient for the flu if they are high risk and the physical and history is consistent with the flu and it is flu season. Tamiflu is probably prescribed most often for the flu, but it’s efficacy is overblown by the manufacturer. The Cochrane Review is a well respected independent research watchdog for the medical community. They have determined most of the manufacturer’s claims aren’t supported by the data. For instance, the manufacturer claims Tamiflu can help you feel better 2-3 days faster. The Cochrane Review reports the research indicates it is actually less than 8 hours. Maybe. A prescription of Tamiflu use to cost about $200 without insurance. I wouldn’t pay $200 to maybe feel better in 8 hours. But, of course the manufacturer claims the Cochrane Review is wrong. But, try convincing a patient that after seeing a Tamiflu commercial on TV.

PCR testing is more accurate with a false negative rate of usually 10% or less, but it is more expensive, takes longer, and requires the purchase of a machine to run the test which can only process one swab at a time which takes about 15 minutes so you can only test 4 patients/hour.

A quick check of a lab reference lists false negative rate of 30-50% for rapid antigen flu testing and up to 33% for PCR flu testing.

Again, bottom line, a negative flu test doesn’t mean the patient doesn’t have the flu.

Many times I don’t even test for the flu if it won’t change the treatment plan. Meaning if they are high risk with flu symptoms during flu season I’m going to treat them for the flu (after ruling out other causes) and a negative flu test won’t change that so there is no point to performing a flu test, but it would increase the patient’s bill by about $90 dollars or more.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-20-2020, 09:37 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Yeah but it looks like even on the snopes thing Pat posted, he said on Feb 29th that it wasn't yet necessary.  

At that point, the WHO had already recommended against travel bans because evidence indicates they aren't effective which has proven to be the case here with this pandemic and they had recommended social distancing, testing, contact tracing, and quarantining symptomatic patients or people returning to the US from overseas hot spots which has proven to be effective at mitigating the spread.  The WHO made those recommendations approximately one month before Fauci's February interview which was around the same time Trump was claiming the coronavirus was a Democrat hoax to damage him politically.

Fauci serves at the pleasure of the president and has to walk that tightrope of disseminating truthful information as well as supporting what the president says.  We have no idea what Fauci recommended in private.  But, I would take what Fauci said at that time in the context of what Trump was saying at that time because we have seen what happens when Fauci says something Trump doesn't like.

[GMDino]

(04-20-2020, 12:11 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: At that point, the WHO had already recommended against travel bans because evidence indicates they aren't effective which has proven to be the case here with this pandemic and they had recommended social distancing, testing, contact tracing, and quarantining symptomatic patients or people returning to the US from overseas hot spots which has proven to be effective at mitigating the spread.  The WHO made those recommendations approximately one month before Fauci's February interview which was around the same time Trump was claiming the coronavirus was a Democrat hoax to damage him politically.

Fauci serves at the pleasure of the president and has to walk that tightrope of disseminating truthful information as well as supporting what the president says.  We have no idea what Fauci recommended in private.  But, I would take what Fauci said at that time in the context of what Trump was saying at that time because we have seen what happens when Fauci says something Trump doesn't like.

That bolded part is the part that everyone wants to skip when they say th WHO was against Trump's travel ban (Which allowed 40,000 people in anyway).

It is so completely out of context it's like someone from a political message board keeps saying it and instead its Trump.

[hollodero]

(04-20-2020, 09:54 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Personally I think 99% of all protesting is a waste of time.

Yeah, that's pretty much my stance as well.
But this is not about waste of time, it is about actually endangering the community.

(04-20-2020, 09:54 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Mike DeWine excluded political protests from the lockdown.

That's not good. I do not know why that happened, maybe pressure was too high, but that is not a wise decision.

(04-20-2020, 09:54 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Just because a state gives the governor the authority to do things, it doesn't mean that authority is actually legal.  The tenth amendment is a great thing, but it does say "The powers not delegated to the United States". The first amendment is delegated to the US, and as best as I can understand extended to the states by the fourteenth amendment.  I think the ones in Mississippi who broke up the drive in church services are in trouble for sure.  

I don't know that many details, so I have to take a pass here. I still dare to say that in general, it is not wise to put some principle over a measure that is meaningful and potentially prevents many deaths. In an ideal world, that should be so obvious that it doesn't even need state authority to enforce that. Since that is not the case (here and in the US), applying authority seems like the best thing to do. Maybe this is the time to put possible constitutional difficulties aside for now. It in all likelihood saves several lives to postpone that debate to a later date.

All law considerations put aside, it is just reckless and a potentially deadly mistake to disobey those orders. It also comes with disobeying recommendations of experts that know about this stuff. Protesters deserve all critizism coming their way. Imho.

[GMDino]

The governor of MD secured, thanks to his South Korean wife, 500,000 tests for the state AND managed to get them in without Trumps confiscating them.

[BmorePat87]

(04-20-2020, 04:21 PM)GMDino Wrote: The governor of MD secured, thanks to his South Korean wife, 500,000 tests for the state AND managed to get them in without Trumps confiscating them.

Naturally Trump took the oppurtunity at his "press conference" today to attack Hogan, suggesting Hogan didn't understand the "pretty simple" list that the federal government put out detailing all of the labs in each state that could test. Hogan has refuted the list as most of the unused lab equipment in the list were in federal facilities located in MD that the state does not have access to. 

Hogan responded on CNN by stating, "he wasn’t there. I’m not sure what he was trying to say.”

[samhain]

(04-20-2020, 03:33 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: He was known well before his dim-witted presidency to hate making plans and going off his gut. That’s why his airline and casinos failed. That’s why many of his businesses failed. He’s always been good at bullying and marketing though. If he can counter sue someone until their broke in order to avoid paying contractors, he would. He tricked people into believing he was more successful than he was and was able to make a show out of it, which, along with his father dying, helped him recover from his collapse in the 90s.

Now he’s expected to make plans and stick with it, but all he wants to do is respond to polls, but he isn’t sure which route to go to improve his falling numbers

I'm afraid you're probably right.  He seems to be trying to run as an insurgent outsider candidate who just happens to be an incumbent.  He's encouraging anti-gubmint protestors when he IS the gubmint.  He laid out guidelines for re-opening the nation that have yet to be met, yet he wants to egg on the outrage of people that want to disregard HIS guidelines.  

To boot, he has the Devos family and other groups he's in deep with financing and organizing the protests while the pretend that they are organic.  Lies and stupidity from terrible human beings.

[Benton]

(04-21-2020, 12:24 AM)samhain Wrote: I'm afraid you're probably right.  He seems to be trying to run as an insurgent outsider candidate who just happens to be an incumbent.  He's encouraging anti-gubmint protestors when he IS the gubmint.  He laid out guidelines for re-opening the nation that have yet to be met, yet he wants to egg on the outrage of people that want to disregard HIS guidelines.  

To boot, he has the Devos family and other groups he's in deep with financing and organizing the protests while the pretend that they are organic.  Lies and stupidity from terrible human beings.

To the last part, I think he's realized he's dismantled federal responses to the point where it's only an obstacle, they aren't providing any real relief. Hell, if anything they're hurting it by scooping up equipment and bailing out big companies while letting small employers wilt away.

So all he can do is stir up some anger aimed at local governments.

[6andcounting]

(04-18-2020, 08:15 AM)6andcounting Wrote: Trump shows us a slideshow of horrific numbers and scary estimates of mass deaths do to an uncontained disease outbreak in poor, shit hole countries. To stop the spread of this virus in the US we must completely close the border with Mexico (including increased border security to prevent people trying to sneak in) as well as a travel ban to and from various African, South American and Muslim majority countries deemed hot spots. California is also quarantined since the libs there encourage homeless encampments and love supporting illegal immigrants - both of which of course will increase the spread of the disease.  How do we make sure Trump is doing what's truly right?

Well, at least he hasn't quarantined California yet. 

[6andcounting]

(04-19-2020, 09:50 AM)hollodero Wrote: A state needs authority. If one doesn't like their authority, there are elections to vote for persons with a different approach. But when everyone still should be free to do dumb stuff that threatens the community, then this is not freedom. Not for those that get infected and possibly die because some folks won't respect sensible measures. Many seem to confuse freedom with recklessness and egocentrism. In fact it comes with responsibility.

Generally, I'd say folks need to listen to actual experts more. Which is hard, since your country is so divided and so many would believe Trump over everyone on any topic. But these experts and their recommendations could make one determine if measures are appropriate or over the top.

Admittedly, I live in a country where though we usually dislike our politicians very much, we still trust them to act reasonable and in good faith in times like those, and that their decisions are shaped by expertise. Makes it easier to see it that way.

On Constitutional grounds, Trump has the power under Title 42 of U.S. Code to halt all immigration. The 2018 upholding of his 2018 ban also gives him precedent. I suspect there will be no shortage of experts that will be paraded out to justify and support his decision. And I'm sure his slide show of CDC numbers and models shows how we need a total immigrant ban to keep us safe is already ready to roll for today.

I'm not an expert on any of these people, fields or things Trump will show to me as evidence, but I'm already questioning why I should trust or believe any of it. What good are expert recommendations if the experts are paid by or receive funding from the government they are backing? And when the DNC trots experts out to counter Trump, how do I trust their evidence is 100% correct and not fitted to be an attack on Trump? 

The average person can't sift through the bias and issues in these highly specified fields that we don't study ourselves. 

[GMDino]

Like a trapped rat Trump is getting scared and angry. He thrives on chaos but this is above what's left of his mental ability to comprehend or control.

So he does this immigration thing out of left field to distract from his failures.

It will work for a short while.

But once again if he could have just kept his mouth shut this would have run a natural course and he wouldn't be the center of attention to the failures.

[hollodero]

(04-21-2020, 07:31 AM)6andcounting Wrote: On Constitutional grounds, Trump has the power under Title 42 of U.S. Code to halt all immigration. The 2018 upholding of his 2018 ban also gives him precedent. I suspect there will be no shortage of experts that will be paraded out to justify and support his decision. And I'm sure his slide show of CDC numbers and models shows how we need a total immigrant ban to keep us safe is already ready to roll for today.

I seriously doubt that. It is not Trump's style to have his hunches backed up by expertise. He'd rather claim he knows more than the experts anyway.
Not saying your overall point isn't fair. It is. But Trump won't roll out too many experts and numbers and models. FOX might try for him though.

(04-21-2020, 07:31 AM)6andcounting Wrote: The average person can't sift through the bias and issues in these highly specified fields that we don't study ourselves. 

That's certainly true. Experts won't help you out on many topics, including all those that have an ideological question involved. But the concept of social distancing is not one of those instances. This is easy to explain, easy to get and I'd at least hope the average human is intelligent enough to grasp the concept once it's laid out. And whoever doesn't, like those protesters, is just an ignorant fool. (Or is fine with an uncontrollable spread, just let millions die; or claims that the right to assemble is more important than said millions of lifes... whatever).

That doesn't mean every single question around the virus can also be answered by experts. There are some. Like the fact that you can be asymptomatic, but still have and hence spread the virus. That is not said from a pro-Trump or anti-Trump viewpoint, it is a medical fact, one of those that should shape one's stance. Is an immigration ban needed, that one will be loaded ideologically and sure enough, that's one of the things where experts won't give you the one and only correct answer. As was the case with counterterroruism measures, the prominent instance where civil liberties were on the line to a major extent. I do not dismiss that point in any way. Stay vigilant, but not to the point where you defy important, expert-backed concepts (expert-backed around the world that is, hence including foreign experts that don't care about Trump) to fight an epidemic.

The tendency to give a political affiliation to every person and to claim all he says and does is solely shaped by said affiliation and not by facts and figures and reason is a right-wing media trick though. In reality, there are many more or less independent people around, that keep their politics private and get that it's not the only important thing in the world. And scientists/experts actually do not lie that much in favor of a politician and kill their reputation. Which is what would happen if an expert were to say utter falsehoods just to please or contradict Trump.

[BmorePat87]

So much shade

I’m grateful to President Trump for sending us a list of federal labs and generously offering Maryland use of them for #COVID19 testing. Accessing these federal labs will be critical for utilizing the 500,000 tests we have acquired from South Korea.

— Governor Larry Hogan (@GovLarryHogan) April 21, 2020

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-21-2020, 01:55 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So much shade

I’m grateful to President Trump for sending us a list of federal labs and generously offering Maryland use of them for #COVID19 testing. Accessing these federal labs will be critical for utilizing the 500,000 tests we have acquired from South Korea.

— Governor Larry Hogan (@GovLarryHogan) April 21, 2020

There isn’t a shortage of labs. There is a shortage of tests.

It’s like having a kitchen with no groceries.

Trump knows this, but he has to deflect blame.