Why does he refuse to condemn them?

[*PhilHos*]

(09-30-2020, 10:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: To me the disconnect between those saying Trump answered the question and those who say he didn't it what question he answered.



If I ask my son if if he's going to brush his teeth before bed and he says he is "willing" to do that it is not the same as him actually doing that.



So I would follow up with "did you brush your teeth" and if he says "I want my toothbrush to be ready in the morning but the real problem is that you didn't wash your face" he didn't do what he said he was "willing" to do.

Also interesting is that Wallace never told him which group and Trump went straight to the Proud Boys.  I wonder what part of his "debate prep" led him to that.

You clearly didn't watch the debate and whatever your source for the transcripts is not accurate. This is the 2nd time you've been inaccurate about what was said at the debate.  It was BIDEN who first brought up the Proud Boys. Trump asked for a name and it was BIDEN who said Proud Boys. 

I suggest either watching the debate or finding a better source for your transcripts before commenting further about the debate. 

[GMDino]

(10-01-2020, 12:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: You clearly didn't watch the debate and whatever your source for the transcripts is not accurate. This is the 2nd time you've been inaccurate about what was said at the debate.  It was BIDEN who first brought up the Proud Boys. Trump asked for a name and it was BIDEN who said Proud Boys. 

I suggest either watching the debate or finding a better source for your transcripts before commenting further about the debate. 

I did watch.  I did miss that and Pat already explained why he said Proud Boys.

Here is my source:

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-joe-biden-1st-presidential-debate-transcript-2020

Thanks your your kind direction I found another that does show Biden saying "proud boys"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/09/30/presidential-debate-read-full-transcript-first-debate/3587462001/

So my question was answered and it doesn't change anything about what Trump reuses to say or do.

(Not sure what other inaccurate thing I referenced as I'm sure I'd have been covered up in responses about how I'm always wrong and biased.  )

Thanks.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-01-2020, 12:33 PM)GMDino Wrote: I did watch.  I did miss that and Pat already explained why he said Proud Boys.

Here is my source:

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-joe-biden-1st-presidential-debate-transcript-2020

Thanks your your kind direction I found another that does show Biden saying "proud boys"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/09/30/presidential-debate-read-full-transcript-first-debate/3587462001/

So my question was answered and it doesn't change anything about what Trump reuses to say or do.

(Not sure what other inaccurate thing I referenced as I'm sure I'd have been covered up in responses about how I'm always wrong and biased.  )

Thanks.

The first inaccurate thing you referenced is him not saying he condemned white supremacy. He did. Just not to the degree that you'd clearly prefer. 

[GMDino]

(10-01-2020, 12:39 PM)PhilHos Wrote: The first inaccurate thing you referenced is him not saying he condemned white supremacy. He did. Just not to the degree that you'd clearly prefer. 

At the debate?  He said he would...but didn't say it.

I'm not alone in that understanding of what he said.

It should be easy for him to clearly say it but nothing is easy with Trump.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-01-2020, 12:56 PM)GMDino Wrote: At the debate?  He said he would...but didn't say it.

Yes he did. Wallace asked if he would condemn and Trump said "sure" before Wallace finished and before he said he'd do anything. Just because it's not a strong enough condemnation for you does not mean he didn't do it.

(10-01-2020, 12:56 PM)GMDino Wrote: It should be easy for him to clearly say it but nothing is easy with Trump.

This is true. But as is evidenced by this very thread, I believe Trump could condemn them by stating unequivocally "I condemn them" and people would still be complaining he didn't mean it or it still wasn't strong enough for them.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(10-01-2020, 11:16 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Byrd denounced his being a part of the KKK and voted for the Civil Rights Act. He didn't hide that he was an exalted Cyclops but says he regretted it. That's all in that article of yours.

There's a difference between knowing and respecting someone who made mistakes and worked to fix them and actively endorsing a hate group.

Wait, that's a real thing??!

I thought Mason was just making that up off the top of his head

[hollodero]

(10-01-2020, 01:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes he did. Wallace asked if he would condemn and Trump said "sure" before Wallace finished and before he said he'd do anything. Just because it's not a strong enough condemnation for you does not mean he didn't do it.

One could reasonably see it that way. But yeah, I feel it was far from being strong enough. I believe a good rule of thumb would be that the group that gets condemned actually feels condemned instead of emboldened. If the latter is the case, there is an issue with the strongness of the confirmation, imho.

(10-01-2020, 01:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: This is true. But as is evidenced by this very thread, I believe Trump could condemn them by stating unequivocally "I condemn them" and people would still be complaining he didn't mean it or it still wasn't strong enough for them.

Imho it is not a particular powerful point to claim "ah, even if he would have done better, it would not have been good enough for you". It might very well be true, but it's also a hypothetical. Generally speaking, doing bad and defending it by claiming even doing good wouldn't have been good enough for many is never an effective counterpoint to critizism.

[*bfine32*]

(10-01-2020, 01:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes he did. Wallace asked if he would condemn and Trump said "sure" before Wallace finished and before he said he'd do anything. Just because it's not a strong enough condemnation for you does not mean he didn't do it.


This is true. But as is evidenced by this very thread, I believe Trump could condemn them by stating unequivocally "I condemn them" and people would still be complaining he didn't mean it or it still wasn't strong enough for them.

Liberal Logic:

Trump condemns White Supremacists at debate= "Trump didn't do it good enough"

Biden refuses to condemn Antifa at debate= "Well what about Trump"

[*PhilHos*]

(10-01-2020, 01:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: One could reasonably see it that way. But yeah, I feel it was far from being strong enough. I believe a good rule of thumb would be that the group that gets condemned actually feels condemned instead of emboldened. If the latter is the case, there is an issue with the strongness of the confirmation, imho.

I mean, I get it. I, too, would rather he just say "I condemn [fill in the blank]" without saying anything else. 

That said, the dude has said multiple times he condemns these things and people are STILL asking him to condemn them.

(10-01-2020, 01:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: Generally speaking, doing bad and defending it by claiming even doing good wouldn't have been good enough for many is never an effective counterpoint to critizism.

Except that's not what's happening. Trump isn't "doing bad". He's doing "not good enough".

[hollodero]

(10-01-2020, 01:29 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I mean, I get it. I, too, would rather he just say "I condemn [fill in the blank]" without saying anything else. 

That said, the dude has said multiple times he condemns these things and people are STILL asking him to condemn them.

Yeah, I understand how one can see it that way, I just advocate you also understand why people don't take his condemnations at face value. For example because of the way they are given, pretty much always unwilling and annoyed, always just after following multiple invitations, always while deflecting away in the same breath, and always given in a way the condemned groups take it as emboldenment. Which you might want to take into account to understand where people are coming from.
If violent Antifa members ran around with Biden shirts, then Biden would have to do something more to counter that too. But they don't. The Trump-friendly white supremacists and other extremist groups, however, are full MAGA and show openly that they see Trump as their ally. That is the main reason people (me amongst them) say the condemnations are not good enough, or even meaningless.

(10-01-2020, 01:29 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Except that's not what's happening. Trump isn't "doing bad". He's doing "not good enough".

That is a fair point, which is why I tried to clarify that I make a more general point to make myself clearer. In the specific instance, feel free to replace "bad" with "not good enough". Meaning, when doing not good enough it is not an effective counter to say "It doesn't matter, for even doing good would not have been good enough for many, folks are just so biased against me anyways". Again, that maybe is hypothetically true, still it is a weak argument to make, imho.

[SunsetBengal]

Except, he doesn't refuse to condemn them..

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-president-trump/

Quote:Diplomatic Room
12:38 P.M. EDT

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. I’m in Washington today to meet with my economic team about trade policy and major tax cuts and reform. We are renegotiating trade deals and making them good for the American worker. And it’s about time.
Our economy is now strong. The stock market continues to hit record highs, unemployment is at a 16-year low, and businesses are more optimistic than ever before. Companies are moving back to the United States and bringing many thousands of jobs with them. We have already created over one million jobs since I took office.

We will be discussing economic issues in greater detail later this afternoon, but, based on the events that took place over the weekend in Charlottesville, Virginia, I would like to provide the nation with an update on the ongoing federal response to the horrific attack and violence that was witnessed by everyone.

I just met with FBI Director Christopher Wray and Attorney General Jeff Sessions. The Department of Justice has opened a civil rights investigation into the deadly car attack that killed one innocent American and wounded 20 others. To anyone who acted criminally in this weekend’s racist violence, you will be held fully accountable. Justice will be delivered.

As I said on Saturday, we condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence. It has no place in America.

And as I have said many times before: No matter the color of our skin, we all live under the same laws, we all salute the same great flag, and we are all made by the same almighty God. We must love each other, show affection for each other, and unite together in condemnation of hatred, bigotry, and violence. We must rediscover the bonds of love and loyalty that bring us together as Americans.
Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.

We are a nation founded on the truth that all of us are created equal. We are equal in the eyes of our Creator. We are equal under the law. And we are equal under our Constitution. Those who spread violence in the name of bigotry strike at the very core of America.
Two days ago, a young American woman, Heather Heyer, was tragically killed. Her death fills us with grief, and we send her family our thoughts, our prayers, and our love.

We also mourn the two Virginia state troopers who died in service to their community, their commonwealth, and their country. Troopers Jay Cullen and Burke Bates exemplify the very best of America, and our hearts go out to their families, their friends, and every member of American law enforcement.

These three fallen Americans embody the goodness and decency of our nation. In times such as these, America has always shown its true character: responding to hate with love, division with unity, and violence with an unwavering resolve for justice.
As a candidate, I promised to restore law and order to our country, and our federal law enforcement agencies are following through on that pledge. We will spare no resource in fighting so that every American child can grow up free from violence and fear. We will defend and protect the sacred rights of all Americans, and we will work together so that every citizen in this blessed land is free to follow their dreams in their hearts, and to express the love and joy in their souls.

Thank you. God bless you. And God bless America. Thank you very much.

END
12:43 P.M. EDT

[samhain]

(09-30-2020, 08:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That doesn't answer my question, but somehow I think the answer doesn't actually matter to you. 

Hey, by the way, when your homeboys out in San Luis Obispo got into the shootout last week with that white supremacist guy, did you do all you could to stop it?  Did you tell them how distasteful it was to do violent things to far-right extremists?  I mean, there are people throwing stuff and spray painting at protests.  Who has time to worry when the right gets into shootouts with cops, amirite?  Just leave the poor 2A patriot alone and fight the real enemy, IE anyone on the left!

Wasn't it offensive for the media to characterize him as a Nazi? I'm curious.

[GMDino]

Is it better or worse that Trump says he doesn't know anything about the group he told to "stand back and stand by"?

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/15/17978358/proud-boys-trump-biden-debate-violence

[/url]

Quote:[url=https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/1311375753456553986]On Wednesday, Trump said he meant the group should “stand down” and let law enforcement do their jobs, then denied knowing who they were at all. But, as Vox’s Fabiola Cineas detailed Tuesday night, the Proud Boys took this moment as a sign of Trump’s support for their group, even producing merchandise bearing the phrase “stand back and stand by”:

Quote:One Proud Boys leader, Joe Biggs, wrote on the social media platform Parler, “Trump basically said to go **** them up! this makes me so happy,” according to the Daily Beast. Proud Boys national chair Enrique Tarrio, who organized the recent Portland event, wrote “I will stand down sir!!! Standing by sir. So Proud of my guys right now.”

Also I guess that was a mental gaffe by Trump.


That link, btw, is an article on the Proud Boys activities.

In the wake of… events, I updated this piece on the Proud Boys, with more details on their activities. https://t.co/kQpli9ZngQ

— Jane Coaston (@cjane87) October 1, 2020

 

[*PhilHos*]

(10-01-2020, 01:53 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, I understand how one can see it that way, I just advocate you also understand why people don't take his condemnations at face value.

Oh, I know why. It's because they think Trump's a white supremacist himself based on virtually no evidence.

(10-01-2020, 01:53 PM)hollodero Wrote: For example because of the way they are given, pretty much always unwilling and annoyed, always just after following multiple invitations, always while deflecting away in the same breath, and always given in a way the condemned groups take it as emboldenment. Which you might want to take into account to understand where people are coming from.

I'm going to assume you're not a racist (because you've given no reason to suggest otherwise). Now, imagine people routinely call you a racist by twisting your words and/or taking them out of context. Now, imagine you are asked to condemn racism. You do so. You are asked again to condemn racism. You do so. You are asked again to condemn racism. You do so. You are asked again to condemn racism. You do so. You are asked again to condemn racism. You do so. You are asked again to condemn racism. You do so. You are asked again to condemn racism. You do so. At some point, you're going to get annoyed and respond in a way that might seem as if you're angry/annoyed/deflecting/etc. 

(10-01-2020, 01:53 PM)hollodero Wrote: If violent Antifa members ran around with Biden shirts, then Biden would have to do something more to counter that too. But they don't. The Trump-friendly white supremacists and other extremist groups, however, are full MAGA and show openly that they see Trump as their ally. That is the main reason people (me amongst them) say the condemnations are not good enough, or even meaningless.

Richard Spencer came out in favor of Joe Biden. Biden rejected his support. If Spencer keeps campaigning in favor of Biden, does Biden have an obligation to routinely denounce Spencer? 

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2020, 10:20 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Why isn't Biden under the same scrutiny?

For the exact same reason th KKK are not wearing Biden hats, and tha American Policy Instute is not chanting "Heil Biden", and ProudBoys founder Gavin McInnes does not wear Biden buttons in his videos.

They get it.

They heard Trump tell a black woman born and raised in the United States to " go back to the country she came from. They heard him say there were some "good people" chanting "Blood and Soil" in Charlottesvile. They heard him tell white people in Minnesota that "we have better genes".  They heard him say that Mexican immigrants were "not like us" and that they were diseased criminals. They heard him pardon Sherriff Joe Arpeo after he was convicted of contempt for refusing to end his practice of racial profiling.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-01-2020, 03:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They heard him say there were some "good people" chanting "Blood and Soil" in Charlottesvile. 

They're hearing things if they heard Trump say that. 

[BigPapaKain]

(10-01-2020, 01:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Liberal Logic:

Trump condemns White Supremacists at debate= "Trump didn't do it good enough"

Biden refuses to condemn Antifa at debate= "Well what about Trump"

I didn't watch any of that train wreck so this is a genuine question - was Biden flat out asked to condemn them like the asked Trump?

Plus remember to take into consideration that the Proud Boys have a centralized leadership; Antifa is a bunch of basement dwelling loonies on the opposite side of 4chan with no hierarchy. Comparing the two is like comparing the military to a bunch of kids playing cops and robbers.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-01-2020, 03:38 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I didn't watch any of that train wreck so this is a genuine question - was Biden flat out asked to condemn them like the asked Trump?

Yes, he was. He neglected to by saying 'antifa is an idea'. 

[BigPapaKain]

(10-01-2020, 03:39 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, he was. He neglected to by saying 'antifa is an idea'. 

Gotcha.

What he said is mostly true, but still - you've got to acknowledge extremism is bad no matter the side of the spectrum its on, whether political, religious, even sports fandom.

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2020, 02:53 PM)Philhos Wrote: Richard Spencer came out in favor of Joe Biden. Biden rejected his support. If Spencer keeps campaigning in favor of Biden, does Biden have an obligation to routinely denounce Spencer? 

When David Duke annouced his suppprt fr Trump the Donald lied his ass off instead of renouncing the KKK endorsement.

When Spencer cames out in favor of Biden his campaign immediately released a statement calling Spencer repugnant and disgusting.

But I am sure you won't see any difference at all.