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(05-30-2021, 05:00 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I really don't think it's fair at all to question Andy Dalton's leadership abilities.  And fwiw, this is coming from someone that wasn't always his biggest supporter.

First of all, we see so very little of what is actually going on.  We don't see what's going on in practice, or in the locker room, or in the weight room, or in the film room, or anything else.  Even though we watch the games and are able to see the huddle, we aren't able to hear the words spoken.  We don't get to see the examples set, we don't get to see much of hard work being done.  We know so very little about the relationships these players develop, both on and off the field.

So how can we possibly know for sure what kind of leader someone is?  Because they're not animated?  Because they don't yell at people?  Cuz that to me seems silly.  There's a ton of different ways to lead.  I can think of plenty of great QB's who weren't fiery, or intense, or had swag, or any number of others bs terms fans and media people attatch to the players.

All I know about Andy Dalton is this: I've never heard a single bad thing a teammate has said about him.  Not one.  Not in college, not in the Pros, not in his 10+ years playing this game.

What I have heard is that he was a hard worker, he was supportive, he's charitable, he's generally a good person.  Some of these things I've even seen myself, with my own eyes, in addition to hearing these descriptions second hand.

So I'm sorry.  I think it's bs when people pretend to know what kind of leader Andy Dalton is.  I mean, if you want to critique his play then that's one thing, that's fair.  But how can you pretend to know that he was a terrible leader?  By what measurement are you coming to this conclusion?

Fwiw, My thinking above can be directly applied to Carson Palmer as well.  Never heard a single bad thing about him from a coach or a teammate.  Much like Andy, I've never heard him throw a teammate under the bus or publicly rip a coach.  All I've heard from people in the know is good things.

I really wish we would stop trying to overanalyze this stuff.  This guy isn't a leader because he didn't have swag, this guy is a great leader because he does have swag, or because he shows more emotion.  This is all bs that is clueless speculation.  Unless you hear about a guy not having a great work ethic, or he doesn't know the playbook, or he's involved in off the field distractions, or teammates call him out, what do you really know?

Just because a guy doesn't win a Superbowl doesn't mean he's a shitty leader, and just because he does doesn't mean he's a good one either.  You can strictly judge this off of W/L and how animated the guy is the 60 minutes you see him in his 40 hour work week.

/endrant

I think a lot of people don't realize that different types of people respond to different types of leadership.  Leadership is not a one size fits all commodity.  Some guys respond to the fiery pep talk guys.  Some respond to guys who lead by example.  Some guys need a drill sergeant.  Some guys need to be encouraged and built up.  

Andy wasn't a bad leader.  He just fell into to the lead by example category.  In fairness to him, he did try to branch out and become more of a fiery pep talk guy, but the results were unfortunately cringeworthy.  He would not have lasted as long as he did and achieved what he did if he was a bad leader, though.  I think he was somewhat fortunate in that the star players we had during his run were also lead by example types and likely to respond to his brand of leadership.  

Teams with great leadership either have several different leaders that can reach a variety of different people or they have individual leaders capable of filling all those different roles.  Tom Brady is maybe the greatest leader in NFL history just because he can be the fiery pep talk guy, the lead by example guy, the drill sergeant, or the guy that builds others up.  I think what excites people about Burrow is you can see similar traits in him.  That doesn't mean Andy was a bad leader, though.  It means Burrow can become a great leader.

Carson also fell into that lead by example category and you will rarely hear any player bash that type of player.  He did have a bunch of players trash him for quitting on the team, however.  When the Bengals played the Raiders in '12, even though Marvin tried to downplay Carson, the Bengals were obviously fired up in a fight filled 34-10 drubbing of the Raiders with fans flying "Winners never quit" banners.  I think Carson gets the benefit of a lot of revisionist history from fans that are frustrated with the FO.