Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(07-28-2025, 04:40 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: [ -> ]Are there 6+ "elite" offenses per year? Because the Bengals did not have a top-5 scoring offense in 2024 and weren't even in the top 25% of the league in yardage.

The Bengals offense last year was 6th scoring and 9th overall.

They had a very very good offense last year, but I don't think you can call a 6th/9th offense "elite". Because then what does that make all the teams better than them?

I think the three "elite" offenses last year were the Lions (1st scoring/2nd overall), Ravens (3rd scoring/1st overall), and probably the Bucs as the third (4th scoring/3rd overall).

- - - - - 

It's not an official standard by any means, but personally I think unless you're at least in the top 1/10th of the league, you're not elite at your position. (Top-3 QBs, Top-6 WRs, Top-3 RBs, Top-6 CBs, etc) I would extend that to the other stats as well, otherwise how can more than 10% of the league be elite? Or even over 28% in the instance of our yardage ranking.

They were 6th in points per play last year. That's a much better metric than ppg or ypg. 

And between 3 of the top 6 teams there is a .02 point per play difference. It's negligable. 

They are one of the best offenses in the league. Just leave it at that. 

(07-28-2025, 02:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]In 3-WR looks, I'd like to see more Chase in the slot with Iosivas/Burton outside.
Ideally though, I'd like to see Fant signed and Bengals run a lot of 12 personnel.

Been saying this for a while. Chase in the Slot is just as deadly as on the outside.

(07-28-2025, 03:13 PM)Au165 Wrote: [ -> ]....and with all of that, Mac hitting a 53 yarder against the Ravens and Daijon Anthony not getting PI on 4th and 16 and this team is 11-6 and no one really talks about it as they head into the playoffs.

We will never truly know some of the chicken or egg issues with this team, offense specifically, I think. Does Burrow take too many sacks because the line is bad? Yes. Does he also take a bunch more because he believes he can make something happen? Yes. Are we bad at rushing especially in short yardage? Yes. Are we bad at rushing in short yardage because we cater to our elite QB who doesn't want to play from under center? Yes. Is Zach Taylor's play calling bad at times? Yes. Does Joe Burrow check into plays at times that make it look worse? Yes.

I think at the end of the day though what we can say is, the offense is good enough to win right now and was good enough to win 11/12 games last year including against two of the best teams in the AFC. I get the desire to protect Burrow, but as mentioned above, I don't know if we are ever going to be able to actually do that because I fear with more protection he just becomes more emboldened to take more risks. It's a double edged sword.

Great post, spot on with everything.

Shemar doesn't need to have 7+ sacks to be successful. I've always been a huge proponent of pressures and QB knockdowns... which I think he can do in spades.

(07-28-2025, 05:10 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: [ -> ]They were 6th in points per play last year. That's a much better metric than ppg or ypg. 

That's still the exact same question. Are there 6+ elite offenses per year then? 6+ offenses who "score at will"?

By points per play, the Ravens at 3rd were over 10% better than us.

There's a slightly larger % gap between the Ravens at 3rd and us than there is between us at 6th and the Broncos with a rookie QB and $89m in dead cap at 9th.

- - - - - - - 

The 2024 Bengals offense was very very good, but we shouldn't pretend like it was some unstoppable juggernaut at the pinnacle of offenses that can't be improved upon.

(07-28-2025, 05:10 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: [ -> ]They were 6th in points per play last year. That's a much better metric than ppg or ypg. 

And between 3 of the top 6 teams there is a .02 point per play difference. It's negligable. 

They are one of the best offenses in the league. Just leave it at that. 

Also need to point out that, more often than not, they had to play one dimensional (passing). If only they could be middle of the pack running, they would be better.

There is a reason no one (chiefs), wanted them in the playoffs and were happier with the chance of playing the broncos in the playoffs (who were a top 10 scoring offense as well). If the chiefs had been playing bengals in week 18, instead of broncos, my gut tells me they are trying whatever they can to knock the bengals out, by winning.

(07-28-2025, 03:50 PM)pally Wrote: [ -> ]

2. When they are not with their position groups, Andrei Iosivas and Chase Brown are inseparable on the field.
“We’re honestly trying to outdo each other,” said Brown. “We’re both extremely competitive and we’re both trying to increase our role in such an explosive offense.” pic.twitter.com/K52c2wcNum

— Dan Hoard (@Dan_Hoard) July 28, 2025

4. Yesterday, Stewart described Amarius Mims’ heavy hands as “two bricks in my chest.”
Today, Mims returned the compliment.
“He’s a fierce ball of fire,” said Mims. “Look at him! We drafted him with the 17th pick for a reason. I 100% believe that he’s going to be a great player.” pic.twitter.com/sYm8S4Npbc

— Dan Hoard (@Dan_Hoard) July 28, 2025

 

5. Charlie Jones had his best day of camp after having two surgeries in the offseason to fix a sports hernia.
“This is the best I felt since coming into the league,” said Jones. “I’m ready to make plays whenever they need me and wherever they need me.” pic.twitter.com/NQ77ZwvB0j

— Dan Hoard (@Dan_Hoard) July 28, 2025

Thanks for the highlights Pally. Some great stuff, I am impressed with Stewart, Chase Brown and Yoshi.

We all know what Ja'Marr can do. No wonder he is 99 in madden. He is the best WR in the game right now.

(07-28-2025, 05:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: [ -> ]That's still the exact same question. Are there 6+ elite offenses per year then? 6+ offenses who "score at will"?

By points per play, the Ravens at 3rd were over 10% better than us.

There's a slightly larger gap between the Ravens at 3rd and us than there is between us at 6th and the Broncos with a rookie QB and $89m in dead cap at 9th.

- - - - - - - 

The 2024 Bengals offense was very very good, but we shouldn't pretend like it was some unstoppable juggernaut at the pinnacle of offenses that can't be improved upon.

In our defense Ravens played our defense (one of worst in NFL) and our offense played their defense.

Ravens also have a great offense, no disputing they do, but let's see how the do against Golden in 2025, i have a hunch not as well.

(07-28-2025, 05:18 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: [ -> ]Also need to point out that, more often than not, they had to play one dimensional (passing).  If only they could be middle of the pack running, they would be better.  

There is a reason no one (chiefs), wanted them in the playoffs and were happier with the chance of playing the broncos in the playoffs (who were a top 10 scoring offense as well).  If the chiefs had been playing bengals in week 18, instead of broncos, my gut tells me they are trying whatever they can to knock the bengals out, by winning.

Yes sir, get a decent running game and they could become a juggernaut. Until then, they are a top passing Offense with Burrow, but they 
aren't elite because they are one dimensional. Hope the additions of Peters, Fairchild, Patrick, Perine, Tahj Brooks help. Very well could.

(07-28-2025, 05:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: [ -> ]Yes sir, get a decent running game and they could become a juggernaut. Until then, they are a top passing Offense with Burrow, but they 
aren't elite because they are one dimensional. Hope the additions of Peters, Fairchild, Patrick, Perine, Tahj Brooks help. Very well could.

This is true and why we are ranked in top 10 versus top 5. The good news is we are close. The bad news is we may have done little to nothing to improve our runniing game as 60% is still in tact. Mims though is young and hopefully improves while Brown and Karras are not great run blockers as vets so unlikely they get better.

We will see if the new additons improve our run game, but I have my doubts. Sadly, I don't think there is a FA OL available that could help us in 2025 and trades are not likely.

(07-28-2025, 05:16 PM)QueenCity Wrote: [ -> ]Shemar doesn't need to have 7+ sacks to be successful.  I've always been a huge proponent of pressures and QB knockdowns... which I think he can do in spades.

I beg to differ.

In order of importance, a sack is better than a hit, a hit is better than a pressure, a pressure is better than no pressure.

Stewart's total pressures by year, according to PFF:
2022 - 14
2023 - 22
2024 - 39

Let's compare those to some of the other premiere DEs in his draft class.

James Pierce Jr (went 26th overall):
2023 - 46
2024 - 55

Donovan Ezeiruaku (went 44th overall):
2022 - 35
2023 - 25
2024 - 60

Mike Green (went 59th overall):
2023 - 27
2024 - 56

Stewart was taken primarily off his athletic ceiling, which is higher than all these other guys, but his production in college was lower than pretty much all the other dudes in discussion with him to be a 1st-2nd round selection.

And while there are guys who do get paid a good amount for a lot of pressures (like Carl Lawson did), it's the high sack guys who really get the recognition and are considered the best of the best.

Regardless though, you want your DEs to both get 7+ sacks and your 3T to get 6+ sacks if you want to consider your DL to have even a decent pass rush.
And if your 1st round DE can't frequently get to 7 sacks, were they worth taking 1st round?
I'm (trying to be) hopeful Stewart can get to at least Hubbard/Michael Johnson level of sack production, but I don't have confidence he'll get there this year or next.
I think he's a few years away from making a big impact as a pass rusher.

(07-28-2025, 12:26 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: [ -> ]I will slow it down for those who don't understand. No, I was no referring to him being an actual Heisman Trophy winner, I was simply offering a lot of talented players in college did not pan out in the NFL using Heisman trophy winners as an example.

Man, we need preseason games to start so many petty responses right now.

Your explanation obviously makes sense, but it still doesn't match up with what you wrote.

Anyways, I've moved on.

(07-28-2025, 04:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: [ -> ]Being 6th or 7th in the league isn't great? GTFOH.

I don't usually do this...but you need to STHU, Phil. 6 or 7th is about the 80th percentile. Good but not great. 

(07-28-2025, 01:18 PM)pally Wrote: [ -> ]one of last year's lost opportunities

'I wasn't myself last year' #Texans Sheldon Rankins shares his battle last year while with #Bengals with viral meningitis and shingles at same time, lost nearly 50 pounds at one point. 'I feel great now' @KPRC2 pic.twitter.com/PyAD4Kp58J

— Aaron Wilson (@AaronWilson_NFL) July 28, 2025

Wow, 50 pounds for a DT is insane, glad he's healthier.

(07-28-2025, 02:13 PM)ERIC1 Wrote: [ -> ]My man..Shemur...looking great already...defensive rookie of the year

Who TF is Shemur?

(07-28-2025, 06:12 PM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]I beg to differ.

In order of importance, a sack is better than a hit, a hit is better than a pressure, a pressure is better than no pressure.

Yup, if you believe the math nerds and football statisticians...
A hurry with no hit is still barely a positive offensive play at +0.019 expected points added.
A hurry AND hit is -0.323 expected points added.
A sack is -1.856 exepcted points added.

You need nearly 6 (5.75) instances of hurrying AND hitting a QB to equal/surpass the value of just 1 sack. This was the same problem when people tried to hype up Carl Lawson as an elite pass rusher after 2020 despite 5.5 sacks because of his pressures. You need 57.5 instances of both hurrying AND hitting a QB on a passing play in order to equal the value of just 10 sacks and nobody hurries and hits the QB that much.

(07-28-2025, 06:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: [ -> ]Yup, if you believe the math nerds and football statisticians...
A hurry with no hit is still barely a positive offensive play at +0.019 expected points added.
A hurry AND hit is -0.323 expected points added.
A sack is -1.856 exepcted points added.

You need nearly 6 (5.75) instances of hurrying AND hitting a QB to equal/surpass the value of just 1 sack. This was the same problem when people tried to hype up Carl Lawson as an elite pass rusher after 2020 despite 5.5 sacks because of his pressures. You need 57.5 instances of both hurrying AND hitting a QB on a passing play in order to equal the value of just 10 sacks and nobody hurries and hits the QB that much.

I gotta say, you come up with some of the best stats and metrics that I've seen to get your point across. Well done.

(07-28-2025, 06:12 PM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]I beg to differ.

In order of importance, a sack is better than a hit, a hit is better than a pressure, a pressure is better than no pressure.

Stewart's total pressures by year, according to PFF:
2022 - 14
2023 - 22
2024 - 39

Let's compare those to some of the other premiere DEs in his draft class.

James Pierce Jr (went 26th overall):
2023 - 46
2024 - 55

Donovan Ezeiruaku (went 44th overall):
2022 - 35
2023 - 25
2024 - 60

Mike Green (went 59th overall):
2023 - 27
2024 - 56

Stewart was taken primarily off his athletic ceiling, which is higher than all these other guys, but his production in college was lower than pretty much all the other dudes in discussion with him to be a 1st-2nd round selection.

And while there are guys who do get paid a good amount for a lot of pressures (like Carl Lawson did), it's the high sack guys who really get the recognition and are considered the best of the best.

Regardless though, you want your DEs to both get 7+ sacks and your 3T to get 6+ sacks if you want to consider your DL to have even a decent pass rush.
And if your 1st round DE can't frequently get to 7 sacks, were they worth taking 1st round?
I'm (trying to be) hopeful Stewart can get to at least Hubbard/Michael Johnson level of sack production, but I don't have confidence he'll get there this year or next.
I think he's a few years away from making a big impact as a pass rusher.

Those are some pretty disturbing comparisons. Still not excited..

(07-28-2025, 06:12 PM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]I beg to differ.

In order of importance, a sack is better than a hit, a hit is better than a pressure, a pressure is better than no pressure.

Stewart's total pressures by year, according to PFF:
2022 - 14
2023 - 22
2024 - 39

Let's compare those to some of the other premiere DEs in his draft class.

James Pierce Jr (went 26th overall):
2023 - 46
2024 - 55

Donovan Ezeiruaku (went 44th overall):
2022 - 35
2023 - 25
2024 - 60

Mike Green (went 59th overall):
2023 - 27
2024 - 56

Stewart was taken primarily off his athletic ceiling, which is higher than all these other guys, but his production in college was lower than pretty much all the other dudes in discussion with him to be a 1st-2nd round selection.

And while there are guys who do get paid a good amount for a lot of pressures (like Carl Lawson did), it's the high sack guys who really get the recognition and are considered the best of the best.

Regardless though, you want your DEs to both get 7+ sacks and your 3T to get 6+ sacks if you want to consider your DL to have even a decent pass rush.
And if your 1st round DE can't frequently get to 7 sacks, were they worth taking 1st round?
I'm (trying to be) hopeful Stewart can get to at least Hubbard/Michael Johnson level of sack production, but I don't have confidence he'll get there this year or next.
I think he's a few years away from making a big impact as a pass rusher.

So...is it safe to say that he wasn't this disruptive monster that some are claiming?  

Lot of good info shared.. well if anything once Trey is signed perhaps the pressure from the both of them gives the other opportunities for sacks.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/five-things-we-learned-after-the-first-five-practices-of-cincinnati-bengals-training-camp/ar-AA1JuANX?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=069844f3608c438baf602a020d36ed92&ei=19

Quote:syndication-the-enquirer
syndication-the-enquirer

Five things we learned after the first five practices of Cincinnati Bengals training camp
Story by John Sheeran

The pads are on, August is knocking on the door, and the preseason opener beckons on the schedule. Training camp for the Cincinnati Bengals really is in full swing.

Usual tropes are showing. Defense is reacting quickly to an offense that's building back timing with itself. Superstars are showing why they are superstars, and rookies are showing what inexperience looks like. No scuffles or skirmishes yet, but we won't have to wait too much longer for those.

What can we say after five practices at Bengals training camp? I've got my answers below.

1. Al Golden's defense has its head on straight
There may not be a defense under more pressure this season than the one in Cincinnati. Al Golden was brought back with a promotion to defensive coordinator to get underutilized young players on the field and moving around as one. So far, that's been evident at camp.

Ja'Marr Chase and Tee Higgins are going to do Ja'Marr Chase and Tee Higgins things with Joe Burrow throwing them the ball, but the secondary has fared well despite cornerbacks Dax Hill and Josh Newton moving around. Defensive tackle Kris Jenkins Jr., playing for an injured B.J. Hill, looks improved repping next to free-agent acquisition T.J Slaton Jr., who also looks the part at nose tackle.

Defenses normally start strong in camp, but this one in particular needed it. Golden's got his guys playing fast and confident, and that's promising.


2. Amarius Mims looks primed for a great second season

It hasn't been all bad for the offense, far from it actually. The starting right tackle is looking like a star right tackle.

Mims is moving quick on his feet and is showing his power through his hands. Rookie Shemar Stewart felt it all during his first practice against last year's first-round pick.

"I feel like two bricks in my chest," Stewart said of feeling Mims' punches.

It's already difficult getting around Mims. If going through him becomes equally as challenging, the Bengals may indeed see major growth from Mims in his second season.

3. Another guard is needed, like right now
What's happening next to Mims is not nearly as hopeful. The battle between Cody Ford and Lucas Patrick at right guard is currently just Ford battling himself. Patrick suffered what is believed to be a right calf injury during practice No. 3 last Friday. He hasn't practiced since and is labeled "day-to-day" by head coach Zac Taylor.

Day-to-day is not the urgency level Cincinnati needs here. The Bengals need to sign another guard today.

Ford vs. Patrick was already not the most optimal competition to be a starting pass-protector for Joe Burrow. An injury excuse is enough of an excuse to get another option on speed dial. Brandon Scherff? Maybe he won't budge if he's not guaranteed a starting gig. Perhaps Will Hernandez? He just announced he's good to go nearly 10 months since suffering a torn ACL. At least one call needs to be made at this point.


4. Shemar Stewart has the right mindset
Stewart missed the first three practices as he remained unsigned. He agreed to terms mere hours after the third session wrapped, and was out there for practice No. 4.

Whatever you may've thought about the holdout, it's not what matters anymore. Getting better as soon as possible is what's in front of Stewart, and he's attacking it head on. Defensive line coach Jerry Montgomery has been busy pushing the 17th overall pick from this year's NFL Draft. It's exactly what Stewart signed up for when he literally signed this past Saturday.


“I just needed to get on the field as soon as possible," Stewart said Sunday. "I needed to start learning, start getting better. There is a long season ahead. I needed to be ready.”

Montgomery will give Stewart every chance to be ready when the time comes. He's responding the right way out of the gate.

5. Vibes are good, even without Trey Hendrickson
Two notable names missing from the locker room when camp started could've sparked as much internal drama as there was in the media-sphere, but that didn't seem to be the case. Contract holdouts are far from a foreign concept in Cincinnati. Those in the building understood why those away from it were where they were, or in Trey Hendrickson's case, where he still is.

There's disappointment, as Joe Burrow said, in these issues not being solved before camp, but there's no distractions hindering the 89 present players work getting done with each other. The offense is building off the flashes they produced last year, and the defense is clicking with much to prove. Focus is pretty damn high inside Paycor Stadium these days.

Hendrickson's handling his business, and his teammates are doing the same. Maybe that's a testament to the All-Pro defensive end working out several states away instead of attracting eyes on the sidelines of camp. Maybe it's pressure to perform well in September for the first time in years.

Maybe it's both, and the bedrock of the team's mentality is forming before our eyes.

We'll check back in due time.