(04-22-2021, 12:32 PM)PDub80 Wrote: After so many years... YES, it became Mavin's fault. He was given a very long time before people jumped on him for being inept. He was also given some of the best rosters in football over his time in Cincinnati. To compare Marvin's rosters to ZT's rosters is laughable.

No one should be blaming Marvin for Hill's fumble. But, they should blame him for Burfict and Jones losing their minds. Marvin's teams were plagued by mental errors, lack of adjustments, and collapses under the spotlights, and losing to teams he had more talent than. THOSE things, after so many years of it, go on the head coach.

ZT has had far less to work with from a roster standpoint and hasn't started year 3... and people want his head.

So then PDub we should blame Zac and his coaching staff for the boneheaded plays the last 2 years from the current club?  

I mean all i see on this board is people defending Taylor and his staff and that the players are the ones responsible.  

This team could've won a lot more games last year w/o some boneheaded plays from the players and coaching staff.

(04-22-2021, 12:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Please provide a list of all rookie/2nd year QBs who have criticized their head coach to the media.

You asked whose opion we should listen to.  I say ANYONE other than a player who history has proven will never say anything negative about his head coach.

Would you agree there's quite a bit of difference between criticizing and the praise JB has heaped on Zac?

You can not criticize without complimenting

example:

"Fred is a knowledgeable poster"

"bfine is the best poster in the history of Bengals Message Boards past and present"

neither criticizes, both are true, but,,

(04-22-2021, 12:32 PM)PDub80 Wrote: To compare Marvin's rosters to ZT's rosters is laughable.

I agree. Marvin was NEVER given multiple free agents with huge contracts. Instead he had to develope the players he drafted and get by with table scraps in free agency.

ZT is getting benefits Marvin could not even dream of.

(04-22-2021, 12:27 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Marvin was handed a roster coming into it's prime. The offense could score points (look at the box scores after the bye week in 2002. The defense stunk. Marvin had 1 major thing to come in and fix... and a #1 stud QB to do it with. Marvin's problem wasn't talent. It was procedural and organizational. he did a great job turning those things around.

Marvin went 8-8 with Jon Kitna.
Zac went 2-7-1 with Joe Burrow.

Marvin had to reshape how the organization functioned.
Zac benefitted from that.

Yes we had some good young offensive talent when Marvin took over, but Marvin completely reshaped that defense (and greatly improved the offense) in 1 year.

Meanwhile Zac has shown zero improvement over 2 years.

I mean, there really is no debate here. Even if I concede that Merv walked into a better situation (which is somewhat debatable), he still took over a bad team/franchise and led them to a 16-16 record in his first 2 years. Zac is 5-26-1.

(04-22-2021, 12:27 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Marvin was handed a roster coming into it's prime. The offense could score points (look at the box scores after the bye week in 2002. The defense stunk. Marvin had 1 major thing to come in and fix... and a #1 stud QB to do it with. Marvin's problem wasn't talent. It was procedural and organizational. he did a great job turning those things around.

PDub i have to agree with Fred on this.  

How many big free agent did Marvin bring in during his time in Cincinnati?  

I mean if you look at the list of who's who and what was brought in and at what price tag it's crazy.

The front office is opening the pocketbook deep and wide for Zac.  

Look at the the Top 10 free agents I found during Marvins 15 years:

Tori James - Reclaim project
Cedric Benson - Reclaim project
Dhani Jones - Reclaim project
Bobby Williams
John Thornton
Reggie Kelly
Pacman Jones - reclaim project
Terrance Newman - reclaim project thanks to Zimmer

I mean just out of the list i compiled there's not 1 guy the Bengals spent big money on in Free Agency. 

Not compared to this year and last year.   Hell most of the guys were guys that had lackluster careers and Mikey boy thought he'd give them a 2nd chance because they had talent. 

(04-22-2021, 11:26 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Some of us have a tendency to idolize players, but I'm not sure I want a 24 year old Gen Y'er who happens to be BFF with a top prospect to be making GM decisions for the franchise...and shame on the Bengals if they let themselves be swayed by the opinion of said 24 year old.

Joe Burrow is a great young QB, but he isn't thinking about Reiff being on a 1 year deal. He isn't thinking about 4-5 years down the road and whether or not we'll be able to pay himself, Chase and Higgins big contracts... for guys all associated with one aspect of a team game.

He's not thinking if Reiff can successfully slide inside or not. Or whether we will have enough balls to supply Mixon, Chase, Higgins and Boyd. He's not considering that we threw way more than we rightfully should have last year, and that we shouldn't be fully replacing AJ Green's 100 targets because Mixon should be healthy this year.

He isn't trying to figure out if a speed guy will be available in the 2nd round. Or if some of these inferior o-line prospects who fit our scheme will be better than the WR prospects available.

Those considerations are for Duke Tobin, Zac Taylor and this front office. Hopefully these guys do their jobs and let Burrow do his.

How do you know he hasn't thought about all of that?????

(04-22-2021, 01:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Marvin went 8-8 with Jon Kitna.
Zac went 2-7-1 with Joe Burrow.

Marvin had to reshape how the organization functioned.
Zac benefitted from that.

Yes we had some good young offensive talent when Marvin took over, but Marvin completely reshaped that defense (and greatly improved the offense) in 1 year.

Meanwhile Zac has shown zero improvement over 2 years.

I mean, there really is no debate here. Even if I concede that Merv walked into a better situation (which is somewhat debatable), he still took over a bad team/franchise and led them to a 16-16 record in his first 2 years. Zac is 5-26-1.

Shake, this is exactly what I wanted to say.  

Marvin taught this organization how to operate in the 21st century.  

How to draft, how to use the cap.  If this team hadnt hired ML when they did I don't know where they'd be today. 

As much as people on here like to shit on Marvin, and I'm a critic of his as well, he brought more positives to this organization than he had negatives. 

(04-22-2021, 12:36 PM)TJ528 Wrote: So then PDub we should blame Zac and his coaching staff for the boneheaded plays the last 2 years from the current club?  

I mean all i see on this board is people defending Taylor and his staff and that the players are the ones responsible.  

This team could've won a lot more games last year w/o some boneheaded plays from the players and coaching staff.

Do you see any difference between football plays like a fumble, botched snap, missed kick, dropped passes, INT, etc. and mental/discipline issues like personal foul (shoving another team's coach), or personal foul (spearing to the head after a ball flies past a WR by a player who was allowed to play dirty for years?). Or, too many men in the huddle? Too many men on the field? Illegal formation? Illegal substitution? Illegal shift? 

See, I DO see the differences between those types of things. one is physical play and action within the course of a football game (PLAYER) and the other is discipline, professionalism, and procedural (COACH/GAME MANAGEMENT).

(04-22-2021, 12:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree. Marvin was NEVER given multiple free agents with huge contracts. Instead he had to develope the players he drafted and get by with table scraps in free agency.

ZT is getting benefits Marvin could not even dream of.

Marvin didn't need big money FAs. And, he did sign and trade for a bunch of guys his first few years in Cincy to remake the roster on defense. He had some of the most talented rosters in football because the Bengals drafted extremely well for 2/3rds of his time in Cincinnati. They spent a ton of money keeping their own, very talented players. Marvin also had a franchise record setting QB to start with. Andy Dalton and John Kitna are basically a push.

ZT is also developing the players he has drafted. The Bengals had the best draft in all of football last year. And they signed very few big $ FAs Taylor's first season. If the Bengals had any talented veterans when ZT came, they would have kept them. But, they didn't, save for Lawson & WJ3. The team opted to let those guys walk and sign FAs that were cheaper (in WJ3s case) or a lateral move (Hendrickson).

ZT's roster was crap when he got here. Why was ZT hired in the first place? Because Marvin was losing with these guys... HIS guys. And they weren't young, up and coming studs ... like they were when Marvin got here. They were broken down, aged horses who's best years were left on a race track somewhere in 2015.

(04-22-2021, 01:10 PM)Sled21 Wrote: How do you know he hasn't though about all of that?????

What is the likelihood, Sled? Be bonest.

And even if he has considered all those things and done research, it's not his job or forte to evaluate the roster and make decisions that impact the roster long term. Do you really want your 24 year old QB making such decisions over your 60 year old GM?

(04-22-2021, 01:12 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Shake, this is exactly what I wanted to say.  

Marvin taught this organization how to operate in the 21st century.  

How to draft, how to use the cap.  If this team hadnt hired ML when they did I don't know where they'd be today. 

As much as people on here like to shit on Marvin, and I'm a critic of his as well, he brought more positives to this organization than he had negatives. 

Marv was a good coach. We just kept him around 10 years too long.

The book is still out on Zac, but the first chapter read like the script to Dude, Where's my Car?

(04-22-2021, 01:07 PM)TJ528 Wrote: PDub i have to agree with Fred on this.  

How many big free agent did Marvin bring in during his time in Cincinnati?  

I mean if you look at the list of who's who and what was brought in and at what price tag it's crazy.

The front office is opening the pocketbook deep and wide for Zac.  

Look at the the Top 10 free agents I found during Marvins 15 years:

Tori James - Reclaim project
Cedric Benson - Reclaim project
Dhani Jones - Reclaim project
Bobby Williams
John Thornton
Reggie Kelly
Pacman Jones - reclaim project
Terrance Newman - reclaim project thanks to Zimmer

I mean just out of the list i compiled there's not 1 guy the Bengals spent big money on in Free Agency. 

Not compared to this year and last year.   Hell most of the guys were guys that had lackluster careers and Mikey boy thought he'd give them a 2nd chance because they had talent. 

The Bengals were busy spending a ton of money extending their OWN GUYS. Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Justin Smith, Chad, TJ, Carson, Jeremi Johnson (richest FB contract at the time), Whitworth, etc etc... all home grown talent and all got big money. They didn't NEED to sign FAs.

BTW, blaming Mike Brown for all of those reclamation projects and trouble makers is a fascinating narrative.... Because, since MArvin's been gone those guys have all been cut and NO ONE LIKE THAT HAS BEEN DRAFTED OR SIGNED.

It is illogical to blame Mike Brown for any of that at this point. There should be ZERO doubt that Marvin was a huge voice in the room for those players given the fact that Marvin is gone, Mike is still there, and those players aren't being looked at or brought in.

BTW, Torry James wasn't a reclaim project at all. And they resigned him, I believe.

There’s clearly a difference between regurgitating company lines or ‘saying the right things’ and absolutely gushing about someone. Burrow and Daniels are not just providing token support to their coach because that’s what players do — their language is significantly more pronounced than that. They are ecstatic about their head coach.

That doesn’t make them right. I don’t know. I can’t personally claim much faith in Taylor yet. But to treat the players’ praise of him as token would be a lazy and perhaps even self-serving interpretation.

(04-22-2021, 01:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Marvin went 8-8 with Jon Kitna.
Zac went 2-7-1 with Joe Burrow.

Marvin had to reshape how the organization functioned.
Zac benefitted from that.

Yes we had some good young offensive talent when Marvin took over, but Marvin completely reshaped that defense (and greatly improved the offense) in 1 year.

Meanwhile Zac has shown zero improvement over 2 years.

I mean, there really is no debate here. Even if I concede that Merv walked into a better situation (which is somewhat debatable), he still took over a bad team/franchise and led them to a 16-16 record in his first 2 years. Zac is 5-26-1.

I'm not sold on Zac, BUT.....Marvin did have the best offensive line this team has had since the late 80s when he arrived. The organization was just a train wreck, and he cured a lot of those ills. 

Zac, on the other hand, came into the worst offensive line this side of Tallahassee that I've ever seen. They she'll shocked Dalton, and got our rookie clobbered. That's why Marvin was losing, and that's the biggest reason Zac hasn't won more, IMO. You couple that with a complete scheme and roster overhaul, you get the shit show you see now. We should see pretty good gains this year if we stay healthy up front. I mean, the offense was beginning to click before Burrow went down with him running for his life, and no run game. If not, you shitcan him. That simple.

You simply can't win at this game if you can't block. That's pee wee all the way to the NFL.

I don't disagree that we've generally spent more on FAs over the past two years than we did during the Marvin Lewis era, but you can't say that we didn't bring in any big money FAs during those years. We brought big money guys in every few years, e.g.:

Laveranues Coles - 4 yrs, $28 mil. (2009)
Antonio Bryant - 4 yrs, $28 mil. (2008)
Antwan Odom - 5 yrs, $29.5 mil. (2008)
Preston Brown - 3 yrs, $16.5 mil (2018)
Nate Clements - 2 yrs, $10.5 mil. (2011)
Brandon LaFell - 2 yrs, $9 mil. (2016)
Kevin Hardy - 4 yrs, $14 mil. (2003)
Dexter Jackson - 4 yrs, $7.6 mil.

Then there was the plethora of older vets on the low base/high incentive or 1-yr. deals: Sam Adams, Tank Johnson, Terrell Owens, Roy Williams, Manny Lawson, Chris Crocker, AJ Hawk ... It's just that most of the FAs we brought in didn't work out.

And that doesn't include all the guys we resigned to second contracts under the old philosophy of "keeping our own", regardless of whether they deserved it or not -- Geathers, Leon Hall, Andy Dalton, Chad and TJ, AJ, Carson, Iloka, Shawn Williams, Maualuga, etc.

Under that line of thinking, we prob wouldn't have signed Hendrickson and Owuzi/Hilton this year, but would have resigned Lawson and WJIII. So IMO this year is essentially a push (Reiff and Ogunjobi are incentive/short term deals). Last year Reader, Waynes and Bell were all pretty significant signings, but Merv got Thornton, Hardy, Duane Clemons and Tory James his first year. Less money, sure, but significant nonetheless, and that was 20 yrs ago.

Not crapping on Marvin at all -- love the guy and everything he did for the org -- but it was time for him to go. And if Zac doesn't make it to 8 or 9 wins this year, I'll say it's time for him to go too.

(04-22-2021, 01:27 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Marvin didn't need big money FAs. And, he did sign and trade for a bunch of guys his first few years in Cincy to remake the roster on defense. He had some of the most talented rosters in football because the Bengals drafted extremely well for 2/3rds of his time in Cincinnati. They spent a ton of money keeping their own, very talented players. Marvin also had a franchise record setting QB to start with. Andy Dalton and John Kitna are basically a push.

ZT is also developing the players he has drafted. The Bengals had the best draft in all of football last year. And they signed very few big $ FAs Taylor's first season. If the Bengals had any talented veterans when ZT came, they would have kept them. But, they didn't, save for Lawson & WJ3. The team opted to let those guys walk and sign FAs that were cheaper (in WJ3s case) or a lateral move (Hendrickson).

ZT's roster was crap when he got here. Why was ZT hired in the first place? Because Marvin was losing with these guys... HIS guys. And they weren't young, up and coming studs ... like they were when Marvin got here. They were broken down, aged horses who's best years were left on a race track somewhere in 2015.

Dude are you really saying John Kitna and Andy Dalton are equal?  Really?  If you truly believe that then I question how much football you've watched and how much football you know.   John Kitna was a career back up QB.  Dude I'm sorry but John Kitna was a good leader for that 2003 team but Kitna couldnt even carry Dalton's jock when it comes to football.  

There's a reason Dalton will someday be in the ROH in Cincinnati, and Kitna won't be.  

As far as last draft PFF ranked the Bengals as having the best class...and they said the main reason was because of Joe Burrow.  We know we have 2 starters from that draft right now.  Burrow and Higgins.  The LB seems like he can be pretty good but he isnt a "star" player from the 2020 draft.   

(04-22-2021, 02:20 PM)shanebo Wrote: I don't disagree that we've generally spent more on FAs over the past two years than we did during the Marvin Lewis era, but you can't say that we didn't bring in any big money FAs during those years.  We brought big money guys in every few years, e.g.:

Laveranues Coles - 4 yrs, $28 mil. (2009)
Antonio Bryant - 4 yrs, $28 mil. (2008)
Antwan Odom - 5 yrs, $29.5 mil. (2008)
Preston Brown - 3 yrs, $16.5 mil (2018)
Nate Clements - 2 yrs, $10.5 mil. (2011)
Brandon LaFell - 2 yrs, $9 mil. (2016)
Kevin Hardy - 4 yrs, $14 mil. (2003)
Dexter Jackson - 4 yrs, $7.6 mil.

Then there was the plethora of older vets on the low base/high incentive or 1-yr. deals: Sam Adams, Tank Johnson, Terrell Owens, Roy Williams, Manny Lawson, Chris Crocker, AJ Hawk ...  It's just that most of the FAs we brought in didn't work out.

And that doesn't include all the guys we resigned to second contracts under the old philosophy of "keeping our own", regardless of whether they deserved it or not -- Geathers, Leon Hall, Andy Dalton, Chad and TJ, AJ, Carson, Iloka, Shawn Williams, Maualuga, etc.

Under that line of thinking, we prob wouldn't have signed Hendrickson and Owuzi/Hilton this year, but would have resigned Lawson and WJIII.  So IMO this year is essentially a push (Reiff and Ogunjobi are incentive/short term deals).  Last year Reader, Waynes and Bell were all pretty significant signings, but Merv got Thornton, Hardy, Duane Clemons and Tory James his first year.  Less money, sure, but significant nonetheless, and that was 20 yrs ago.  

Not crapping on Marvin at all -- love the guy and everything he did for the org -- but it was time for him to go.  And if Zac doesn't make it to 8 or 9 wins this year, I'll say it's time for him to go too.

Very well put....agree 100%.

(04-22-2021, 02:31 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Dude are you really saying John Kitna and Andy Dalton are equal?  Really?  If you truly believe that then I question how much football you've watched and how much football you know.   John Kitna was a career back up QB.  Dude I'm sorry but John Kitna was a good leader for that 2003 team but Kitna couldnt even carry Dalton's jock when it comes to football.  

There's a reason Dalton will someday be in the ROH in Cincinnati, and Kitna won't be.  

As far as last draft PFF ranked the Bengals as having the best class...and they said the main reason was because of Joe Burrow.  We know we have 2 starters from that draft right now.  Burrow and Higgins.  The LB seems like he can be pretty good but he isnt a "star" player from the 2020 draft.   

Dude doesn't like redheaded people for some reason....lol. 

(04-22-2021, 01:48 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: There’s clearly a difference between regurgitating company lines or ‘saying the right things’ and absolutely gushing about someone. Burrow and Daniels are not just providing token support to their coach because that’s what players do — their language is significantly more pronounced than that. They are ecstatic about their head coach.

That doesn’t make them right. I don’t know. I can’t personally claim much faith in Taylor yet. But to treat the players’ praise of him as token would be a lazy and perhaps even self-serving interpretation.

I agree!

Like, the thread topic is Joe Burrow's take from the podcast. I cannot debate or argue Joe Burrow's thoughts on Zac Taylor. If that's how he outspokenly feels, then that's the way it is. For me to start saying that is all a facade would be a goofy take. I am fine accepting that Burrow thinks ZT is a great coach and I am fine with his reasons why.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN I THINK ZT IS A PERFECT COACH. Plenty of things are on Taylor that have caused problems for the Bengals on the field.

- Throwing 60+ times a game w a rookie QB and a horrible line
- Failure to maximize Mixon/Gio combo in the run game
- Too long of a leash w Jim Turner and his handling of the O Line
- Not being able to connect w Carlos enough to help reign him in
- Lack of polish in time management skills


There's more, but that's off the top of my head. ZT still has a ways to go to fully grow into the position. There's no question on that. I just think there's way too short of a hook around his neck after year 2. After this year, sure, I think that's long enough, but my goodness, the hate.

(04-22-2021, 01:34 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The Bengals were busy spending a ton of money extending their OWN GUYS. Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Justin Smith, Chad, TJ, Carson, Jeremi Johnson (richest FB contract at the time), Whitworth, etc etc... all home grown talent and all got big money. They didn't NEED to sign FAs.

BTW, blaming Mike Brown for all of those reclamation projects and trouble makers is a fascinating narrative.... Because, since MArvin's been gone those guys have all been cut and NO ONE LIKE THAT HAS BEEN DRAFTED OR SIGNED.

It is illogical to blame Mike Brown for any of that at this point. There should be ZERO doubt that Marvin was a huge voice in the room for those players given the fact that Marvin is gone, Mike is still there, and those players aren't being looked at or brought in.

BTW, Torry James wasn't a reclaim project at all. And they resigned him, I believe.

Pdub who was in charge of the draft and listed as the GM from 2003-2015?  I believe that title belonged to Mike Brown himself.  From my understanding, Mike stepped back once Marvin left the organization and is now letting Katie, Duke, and the kids run the organization.  I mean that's what I've read here any way as to the reason for all the changes.  

So yes I'm going to blame Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis both for allowing those players on the team.  They typically worked out.  I'm guessing you didnt see the interview where he was asked about giving guys like Pacman 2nd chances and he said he learned from his dad to give 2nd chances....so maybe I'm incorrect in saying that Mike Brown gave approval to those players being in the locker room.  

(04-22-2021, 02:34 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Pdub who was in charge of the draft and listed as the GM from 2003-2015?  I believe that title belonged to Mike Brown himself.  From my understanding, Mike stepped back once Marvin left the organization and is now letting Katie, Duke, and the kids run the organization.  I mean that's what I've read here any way as to the reason for all the changes.  

So yes I'm going to blame Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis both for allowing those players on the team.  They typically worked out.  I'm guessing you didnt see the interview where he was asked about giving guys like Pacman 2nd chances and he said he learned from his dad to give 2nd chances....so maybe I'm incorrect in saying that Mike Brown gave approval to those players being in the locker room.  

Mike also brought back Chris Henry not long after Marvin washed his hands of him, and said he'd never be back in Cincinnati. You're exactly right, Mike was the king of second chances. The only question there is ....was it because they were cheaper, or because he truly felt sorry for them? I tend to lean toward the former.