(04-28-2021, 09:45 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: His coach in an interview the other day referred to his blocking as a work in progress and that he got "throw around" when asked to block.  That is hardly what I call a solid blocker and that was in college.  

Again, still a very solid prospect, but I don't want him over Chase or Sewell.  

If you take Pitts, you don't use him primarily as a blocking TE anyway. You use him essentially as a receiver who blocks occasionally.
Put him out wide, put him in the slot, or put him inline.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think Pitts is a perennial 1000+ yard guy if used properly.
I think the people who don't want him see him as a 700 yard guy.

(04-28-2021, 09:50 AM)ochocincos Wrote: If you take Pitts, you don't use him primarily as a blocking TE anyway. You use him essentially as a receiver who blocks occasionally.
Put him out wide, put him in the slot, or put him inline.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think Pitts is a perennial 1000+ yard guy if used properly.
I think the people who don't want him see him as a 700 yard guy.

If you simply want to quantify the projections, I see Chase as a dominant WR in the NFL that could put up 1500 yard seasons, and he also helps draw coverage back to open up things for your other WRs, TEs, and RBs.  

I know that is high expectations for Chase, but he simply does whatever it takes to win and he has set National Records at all levels where he has played in doing so.  

You project Pitts as a perennial 1000 yard receiver (and he very well could be, but not likely on a team that lives in 11 personnel) when he never had more than 770 yards in college.  Yes, it was injuries, but it is still a fact.  Never had a 1000 yard season.  

(04-28-2021, 09:47 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't see him as a guy that can line up outside and go vertical, but I hear what you are saying.  But, it remains that as a TE, his blocking isn't good.  And if that doesn't develop, he will be limited.  

Heck of an athlete and prospect, but (again) I have him behind Chase and Sewell, both.  

You don't think a guy who can run a sub-4.5 can go vertical and succeed? At 6'5"?
He literally played snaps outside at X receiver at Florida.

I just don't see how you think he can't be a deep threat when watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf0L7tkC5GI

(04-28-2021, 09:56 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: If you simply want to quantify the projections, I see Chase as a dominant WR in the NFL that could put up 1500 yard seasons, and he also helps draw coverage back to open up things for your other WRs, TEs, and RBs.  

I know that is high expectations for Chase, but he simply does whatever it takes to win and he has set National Records at all levels where he has played in doing so.  

You project Pitts as a perennial 1000 yard receiver (and he very well could be, but not likely on a team that lives in 11 personnel) when he never had more than 770 yards in college.  Yes, it was injuries, but it is still a fact.  Never had a 1000 yard season.  

I don't see that, honestly. I think he's a 1100-1200 yard guy.

(04-27-2021, 07:13 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: There's a lot of reasons I want Pitts but I just wanted to point out something in particular, specifically how it relates to Chase.

A quality TE more often than not has a longer career span than does a WR.  Pitts is such a physical freak that I think this rings true for him even more than most.  Even if slows a tad, or he loses a bit of agility once he gets into his 30's, he's still 6'6.  Lowered speed and agility from his ridiculous starting point still most likley leaves him perfectly capable of producing at his position.

Now, when you take a look at WR it's a little bit different of a story.  Many of them start to drop in play once they reach 30, and the vast majority of them fall off the cliff once they hit 32.  If someone like Chase loses some speed or agility he very easily becomes just another 6'1 receiver.  His measurables aren't that far and above his peers as Pitts are to his.

Take a look at some of the best Tight Ends that have played in this league (what Pitts projects to be), and look at the age when they retired or they currently are:

Tony Gonzalez - 37
Antonio Gates - 38
Jason Witten - 38
Greg Olson - 35
Shannon Sharpe - 35
Gronk - 31 (Still playing)
Jimmy Graham - 34 (Still playing)
Travis Kelce - 31 (still playing and just put up career highs. 30 and and 31 were better than anything from rookie year until 29)

Note:  This is way down my list for why I want Pitts over Chase (or Sewell).  But it's something I haven't seen mentioned yet so I thought I'd add it to the conversation.

Lol... This is simply, and provably, not true. Those TEs are great in large part BECAUSE the were able to hold together that long, not because their position lasts longer.

Jerry Rice - 42
Larry Fitzgerald - 37
Terrell Owens - 37
Randy Moss - 35
Isaac Bruce - 37
Tim Brown - 38
Steve Smith - 37
Marvin Harrison - 36
Reggie Wayne - 36
Andre Johnson - 35
James Lofton - 37
Cris Carter - 37
Anquan Boldin - 36
Henry Ellard - 37

(That's the 14 WRs in the top-15 all-time receiving yard list who aren't Tony Gonzalez.)

(04-28-2021, 09:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Pitts put up 770-12 in just 8 games, 1 of which he got hurt in, so he didn't even play the whole game.
If he had been able to play the full 13 games, he was projected at 1251 yards and 19 TDs.
If he had exceeded 1000 yards and 15 TDs (which would have been extremely likely), people wouldn't even be thinking twice about him at 5.

Stop focusing on the blocking. He's a willing blocker and decent at it. Also, the era of a premiere blocking TE is outdated. Get a better OL and you don't need your TE to block all the time.

If you don't care about your TE blocking, why not just take a WR? Kelce put up 1,416 yards in 2020, a single season record for TEs. 

Those 1,416 yards would be Julio Jones' 5th best season. Think about that. The most a TE has EVER put up in the NFL isn't even a top-3 season for Julio Jones. It's not even a top-80 season all-time.

(04-28-2021, 09:58 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't see that, honestly. I think he's a 1100-1200 yard guy.

We just saw Jefferson do 1,400 so I think that is attainable by Chase, especially with how much we throw and what you would assume is already good chemistry with Burrow.

(04-27-2021, 02:44 PM)jj22 Wrote: With ATL suddenly willing to unload Julio, Chase may be on their radar. Dolphins signaling they believe Pitts will go to ATL and Chase to Cinci.

ATL is no dummy, they saw the fading away of AJ Green. They are in a great place to replace him. Unless the niners are deceiving everyone and taking Chase & keeping their QB J Galapagos. They have not beeped a word what they will be doing.

(04-28-2021, 09:58 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't see that, honestly. I think he's a 1100-1200 yard guy.

Jefferson put up 1400 as a rookie, and Chase was the better of the two at LSU. I think that’s a crazy low projection for a player as talented as Chase. Especially in this day and age when guys are consistently putting up huge yards.

(04-28-2021, 09:59 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: If you don't care about your TE blocking, why not just take a WR? Kelce put up 1,416 yards in 2020, a single season record for TEs. 

Those 1,416 yards would be Julio Jones' 5th best season. Think about that. The most a TE has EVER put up in the NFL isn't even a top-3 season for Julio Jones. It's not even a top-80 season all-time.

By saying I don't care about it doesn't mean I won't have the TE do it occasionally.
And I think Pitts will still be more versatile and block better than nearly every WR.

(04-28-2021, 10:04 AM)ochocincos Wrote: By saying I don't care about it doesn't mean I won't have the TE do it occasionally.
And I think Pitts will still be more versatile and block better than nearly every WR.

That is one thing that is weird. Darren Waller CAN block, he isn't amazing but he does it well enough to make people respect it. That is all anyone is going to expect Kyle Pitts to do. Even motioning him into the backfield as a lead blocker occasionally that leaks out will make people respect him.

(04-28-2021, 09:57 AM)ochocincos Wrote: You don't think a guy who can run a sub-4.5 can go vertical and succeed? At 6'5"?
He literally played snaps outside at X receiver at Florida.

I just don't see how you think he can't be a deep threat when watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf0L7tkC5GI

Uh, that wasn't a deep route.  That was a jump ball on a 35 yard pass.  He has a 31" vertical, but great arm length.  I just don't see a lot of examples of him tracking deep balls and catching them in stride.  Now, Chase on the other hand....

(04-28-2021, 09:58 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't see that, honestly. I think he's a 1100-1200 yard guy.

Based on three seasons where he had a combined 1400 yards in college, I think that is a stretch.  

(04-28-2021, 10:07 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Uh, that wasn't a deep route.  That was a jump ball on a 35 yard pass.  He has a 31" vertical, but great arm length.  I just don't see a lot of examples of him tracking deep balls and catching them in stride.  Now, Chase on the other hand....

33 1/2

Still no 41” though...

(04-28-2021, 10:08 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Based on three seasons where he had a combined 1400 yards in college, I think that is a stretch.  

He’s projecting that for Chase...

6'6" sweet baby jessusss!!  Bengals are gonna score in the RED ZONE  guaranteed.

(04-28-2021, 10:07 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Uh, that wasn't a deep route.  That was a jump ball on a 35 yard pass.  He has a 31" vertical, but great arm length.  I just don't see a lot of examples of him tracking deep balls and catching them in stride.  Now, Chase on the other hand....

They are there, a lot of it is a function of Trask not being very good and Pitts bailing him out. There are examples of him winning off the line and catching in stride, specifically he beat Campbell from Georgia (potential 1st rounder) vertically for a 25 yard TD in stride. There are other throws as well, but that was an example against a high-level opponent. If we get off only the Go ball and look at deep posts there are a lot more examples as well.

I prefer Chase, however, Pitts is an ELITE receiving talent in the body of a TE.

(04-28-2021, 10:02 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Jefferson put up 1400 as a rookie, and Chase was the better of the two at LSU. I think that’s a crazy low projection for a player as talented as Chase. Especially in this day and age when guys are consistently putting up huge yards.

Exactly. Jefferson as a rookie WR was only 16 yards behind Kelce's record setting (for a TE) season.

A truly great TE is just never going to be able to keep pace with a truly great WR, statistically. There have been 9 TEs drafted in the first round since 2010. Combined they have a total of 0 seasons of >750 receiving yards. There's multiple Pro Bowlers in that 9, so it's not like they are all busts or anything.... but can you imagine if for 11 years, there were 0 1st round WRs who had a >750 season? It's unimaginable.

(04-28-2021, 10:34 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Exactly. Jefferson as a rookie WR was only 16 yards behind Kelce's record setting (for a TE) season.

A truly great TE is just never going to be able to keep pace with a truly great WR, statistically. There have been 9 TEs drafted in the first round since 2010. Combined they have a total of 0 seasons of >750 receiving yards. There's multiple Pro Bowlers in that 9, so it's not like they are all busts or anything.... but can you imagine if for 11 years, there were 0 1st round WRs who had a >750 season? It's unimaginable.

TEs are all about the endzone TDs, the 1st downs and the blocking when needed. They should not have, in general, more yardage than a WR. If they do, your WRs are underutilized or the QB lacks the distance/accuracy to make them successful.

(04-28-2021, 10:34 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Exactly. Jefferson as a rookie WR was only 16 yards behind Kelce's record setting (for a TE) season.

A truly great TE is just never going to be able to keep pace with a truly great WR, statistically. There have been 9 TEs drafted in the first round since 2010. Combined they have a total of 0 seasons of >750 receiving yards. There's multiple Pro Bowlers in that 9, so it's not like they are all busts or anything.... but can you imagine if for 11 years, there were 0 1st round WRs who had a >750 season? It's unimaginable.

This is miss framing things a bit. You say Jefferson "as a rookie" but fail to note that his rookie production was also a record and not just any rookie production, it was also good for 3rd highest for all receivers last year. You also fail to mention that Kelce's production was 2nd in total yards and 1st in yards per reception of any receiver with 100 catches or more, plus tied for 5th in TD's. By any metric last year, Travis Kelce was one of the best receiving options in the league.

Again, I am all about Chase but this weird attempt to discredit a TE's impact in the game right now is a weird hill to die on. Kansas City's offense is actually built around Kelce not Hill like a lot of people like to believe.

(04-28-2021, 09:59 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Lol... This is simply, and provably, not true. Those TEs are great in large part BECAUSE the were able to hold together that long, not because their position lasts longer.

WR's have the shortest average career length of all positions in the NFL.  RB's are next.

So it is true, Tight Ends have, on average, longer careers than WR's.  Also, I wasn't just talking about career length but level of play at an advanced age.  Kelce just put up career highs in every single category at the age of 31.  You don't find too many WR's that can claim the same.

My point, I think still stands, if Kyle Pitts slows down a bit (from 4.44) the chances are he's still more than serviceable at his position.  He's so far ahead speedwise at his position that even slowing down leaves with decent measurables in comparison. He's still 6'6.  If Jamar Chase slows down he's in a sea of 6'1 receivers who run over a 4.4.  I think that's a little different.