(05-01-2021, 06:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: His case is obviously much different from yours because he actually started at LT for Clemson last year with this injury.

Hey, great news!  fredtoast assures everyone that Jackson Carman will be a superstar, because his injury case is different than another football player's "case" was..  

(05-01-2021, 06:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hey, great news!  fredtoast assures everyone that Jackson Carman will be a superstar, because his injury case is different than another football player's "case" was..  

You know how I know when people can't really disagree with the point that I make?

They make up something completely different and pretend I said that.

There was a complete medical check in Indy for the Combine Medicals for Jackson Carman and I would guess the Bengals got info from Carman's doctors. I am not worried about the back injury if they aren't.

(05-01-2021, 01:29 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's also funny how no one cared that 99% of former Bengals legends wanted Sewell, but now we suddenly care what guys like Willie and Pollack have to say about Carman.

Ah yes....the ol double talk.

(05-01-2021, 07:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You know how I know when people can't really disagree with the point that I make?

They make up something completely different and pretend I said that.

What, you don't like when people use your own tactics back toward you?  Amazing...  

(05-01-2021, 06:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's where I'm going to differ with you.  In the big picture, his friend isn't the outlier, he's the norm.  It's the ones who have procedures and return to continue at a high level that are the true outliers.

Until you've experienced the injury, felt the effects, rehabbed from it?  You really have no idea of what is entailed by the generic term 'back injury" or "herniated disc".  The real problem is regaining the confidence to go 100%, once the "healing" is done.  I quote the healing word, because it's never fully healed.  It's always weakened and suspect to relapses at any time.  Over the nearly 20 years that I've lived with herniated discs, I've had some good stretches.  Sometimes as long as two or three years between relapses, times where I was able to get back to near competitive lifting strength, able to compete in the sport of Strongman (save for max DL).  A couple of things that I was never able to do again?  Play football, straight up blocking was alright, but moving contact like on pulls or tackling when on defense?  The shock just went straight back to my nerves.  I also was never able to waterski again, a former passion of mine.  The shock from all of the turbulence just travels right up my posterior chain and makes pressure on the nerves.

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=198616

Maybe you need to get NFL Level medical procedures?

(05-01-2021, 09:20 PM)OSUfan Wrote: https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=198616

Maybe you need to get NFL Level medical procedures?

According to that article its a 9 month average recovery.  I am very concerned that the Bengals have plans to start him before he is recovered.  It took me about 9 months to even be able function normally much less play football.

(05-01-2021, 09:20 PM)OSUfan Wrote: https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=198616

Maybe you need to get NFL Level medical procedures?

Yeah, that would be nice.  The procedures available today, were still on the horizon at the time of my injury diagnosis.  I looked into having a discectomy, about 3 years ago.  Turns out that my health care provider won't cover it.  The only thing they will cover is the old fashioned spinal fusion, and that's if I'm completely unable to walk unassisted.  Now, if I had the cash to pay out of pocket, I'd certainly consider doing so.  However, my family Doc and I looked into the long term success rates of microdiscectomy, and they aren't as great as some might lead you to believe.  If you go and look at the data presented by clinics that specialize in these procedures, they present amazing numbers and percentages of athletes put back into action.  What they don't bother to show is how these people end up 10-15 years down the road, which is what my Doctor tuned me into.

(05-01-2021, 03:39 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I remember when we drafted an oft injured OT with two repaired knees and people lost their minds, thinking he would never last. He is now our only HOFer

This x 1000

(05-01-2021, 05:57 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Still not a fan of carman in two but maybe he will prove it to be a good pick however the bengals regardless if they draft me with their last pick have absolutely killed this draft and have put themselves and their future in a very good spot for success.  I’m pumped about every pick so far cept the carman pick but his potential size flexibility and how he fits what we want is positive.

Here's what one analyst has to say about Carman.

Quote:Pass-rush effectiveness could be shaky early on in the NFL. Inside rush moves have given him trouble. Also susceptible to strong edge speed and burst. Benefitted from a lot of three-step-drop passes. Will fall off blocks and fail to sustain properly. Not bad on the move in college but might be a tick slow to get to the edge in the pros.

Played too heavy at times in college. Had trouble controlling weight — arrived as a 375-pound freshman. Pro-day weight wasn’t what he played at. Seemed to fade down the stretch the past two seasons (with the exception of the first Ohio State game). Also suffered from accountability concerns early in college and will require some character vetting. Scouts say his focus and attention to detail could use improvement.

Back injury that kept him out of earlier pro day is a chronic issue that could earn some red flags.

(05-02-2021, 08:11 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's what one analyst has to say about Carman.

Put this together with the rest of the analysis and interviews and it reads,

“Came in heavy as a young kid but with dedication learned to diet and exercise and dropped 40 lbs his first year.   Had a minor back issue causing him pain that he pushed through which showed late in the season and that he had surgery to rectify; according to doctors is good to go.   Also, fits every measurable for size, athleticism and experience and played at a very high level for years on one of the nations top programs.  Potential to be regular all-pro guard for years. 

(05-02-2021, 09:23 AM)yang Wrote: Put this together with the rest of the analysis and interviews and it reads,

“Came in heavy as a young kid but with dedication learned to diet and exercise and dropped 40 lbs his first year.   Had a minor back issue causing him pain that he pushed through which showed late in the season and that he had surgery to rectify; according to doctors is good to go.   Also, fits every measurable for size, athleticism and experience and played at a very high level for years on one of the nations top programs.  Potential to be regular all-pro guard for years. 

Except that's not what it reads.  It clearly denotes the back issue as chronic, meaning that it happens over and over.  Now, are you also going to attempt to gloss over his technique issues by trying to explain them in a pretty and pleasant way, as well?

(05-02-2021, 08:11 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's what one analyst has to say about Carman.

Here’s the upside: 


Upside: Good size for tackle or guard. Weighed in at pro day at a svelte 317 pounds, measuring nearly 6-foot-5 with a condor-like wingspan (87 inches) despite shorter arms. Extremely broad chest. Still young with plenty of growth potential — will be a 21-year-old rookie.

Plays with great strength and power. Carries a physical edge on the field. Has the requisite pop to excel in a gap-blocking system. Almost impossible to bull rush him. Sets his anchor and rarely gets uprooted.


Very agile for a man his size. Impressive flexibility for a blocker who played closer to the 330-340 range in college. Pad level is fairly impressive for a big guy. Terrific combination of upper- and lower-body strength, plus natural athletic traits — those are hard to find.
Showed steady improvements as a pass blocker — kept Trevor Lawrence relatively clean for three years. Clemson’s interior line struggled in 2020, requiring Carman to compensate for inside pressure. Good peripheral vision to spot late trouble and adjust. Good punch skills and hand use in pass protection — appears to have taken to coaching on this.


Nasty demeanor. Intimidator who doesn’t back down from a rock fight. Played well against a battery of a schedule for three years. Faced top competition and seldom was exposed or overwhelmed. Had some solid reps vs. Chase Young in 2019 playoff semifinal game.

The Bengals already have Jackson Carman listed at Guard on their site.

I think he will fit well as a RG in the NFL. Carmans biggest weakness is sloppy footwork against wide speed rushers which gets him leaning over his toes. Moving him to Guard will allow him to use his strengths power and anchor in a phone booth which will be perfect. Carman is a guy Mixon and Pollack will love because you can use him as a weapon in the run game.

(05-01-2021, 07:07 PM)Synric Wrote: There was a complete medical check in Indy for the Combine Medicals for Jackson Carman and I would guess the Bengals got info from Carman's doctors. I am not worried about the back injury if they aren't.

Yeah but those doctors were the same ones who gave Antonio Bryant a medical check and said he was clear and healthy

Just some points about the injury from a medical perspective. Herniated disks can be a very big deal, but some are minor. Think of that disk like a clock face, the herniation can occur anywhere along the clock face. In most instances, the reason for a surgical procedure is related to location and symptoms. A herniation with minimal symptoms in a favorable location can be treated conservatively as the human body can reabsorb that material in about 12 weeks, but we are talking about really taking it easy. A microdiscectomy which removes the herniated material is an outpatient procedure that can speed up recovery from this 12 week period. But this type of procedure is for the cases that fall into the favorable location with mild symptoms and no other mechanical instability. Once you get to issues of mechanical instability along with the disc issues, you are in the territory of spine surgery, which is a very big deal.

Based on all available reports that I have read, this young man likely had a microdiscectomy and has no structural/mechanical issues. We will not be given his full health records to scrutinize. And Bengals medical staff concerns aside, anything other than a microdiscectomy would be a huge red flag.

In summary, there is risk here, but it may be significantly less than some of the commentary and only time will tell.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My two cents on Carmen. I’m just going to put some faith in a couple things. One is the medicals checked out. Given his role in protecting the franchise qb I don’t think the bengals would take too big a risk. Could they be wrong? Surely.

Second is this seems to be the guy pollack wanted. At 38. We were so stoked to have him back and turner gone. If this were turners pick I would be a little more leery.

I’m just going to trust the process here


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(05-02-2021, 09:26 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Except that's not what it reads.  It clearly denotes the back issue as chronic, meaning that it happens over and over.  Now, are you also going to attempt to gloss over his technique issues by trying to explain them in a pretty and pleasant way, as well?

Man, I expected Carman to be your type of guy brother...huge people mover, very fleet-footed for his size, violent punch, smart/coachable player who has a pretty good amount of upside...especially at RG, where he could be a bulldozer.

(04-30-2021, 09:35 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/jackson-carman?position=OL

Carman is in the 5th percentile for arm length for an OT prospect; 18th percentile for an offensive lineman. 

He didn't have a workout I guess? Down to 317 lbs from 345 at some point. Not sure what to make of him yet. 

Those arm measurements are apparently wrong. Paul Alexander (who coached him) said he'd measured him at over 33 inches and this was confirmed at (if I remembered correctly his private workout).

(04-30-2021, 09:44 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: Has the feel of the Drew Sample trade down where the guy they wanted was off the board.

I like the return of the trade.

I hope I'm wrong on Carman, and I'll be rooting for him, but I don't think he's going to amount to much. I'll happily eat crow if he does well.

I'm pretty sure he was their guy all along. I know Lap had in his final draft run through had mentioned him as a second round option but that morning all of a sudden everyone on Bengals twitter seemed to be projecting him as the Bengals' pick in the way that suggested it had leaked as he previously hadn't really been linked. This was before the Bengals traded back.

Maybe the better comparison than Sample is Bates or Mixon who were definitely their guys and they targeted when they moved back.

(05-01-2021, 02:14 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He had back surgery in January for the herniated disc, which kept him out of Clemson’s pro day last month. But he reportedly held a private workout for about 18 teams on April 15th.

https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/clemson/clemson-ot-carman-helps-nfl-draft-stock-after-pro-day-agent-says/article_eb6e1b9e-9ba9-11eb-b964-b381dc770b34.html

Love this bit from SI:

Players like Jalen Mayfield, Liam Eichenberg, Dillon Radunz and Alex Leatherwood are all talked about in the same tier as him, but Carman’s tape is a lot better than all of them.

https://www.si.com/nfl/draft/nfl/hot-take-tuesday-jackson-carman-is-getting-drafted-a-lot-higher-than-you-think

Thank you.

I enjoy reading looking back on pre-draft takes before it has been clouded by what team has taken a player and at what position. I know someone else has already pointed out Bob McGinn had him as the second best guard in his scout survey behind Vera-Tucker who went in the teens.

(05-01-2021, 03:09 AM)Benton Wrote: Carman is either a home run or a bases loaded strike out. But either way we probably won't know for a couple seasons.

Best case scenario, he's 100 percent recovered from surgery on day 1 and can start learning. By mid to late season he could see a significant amount of snaps. But he's not really going to be an upgrade from any of the current guards for a bit. He's a solid athlete, he's strong and he's got great footwork... But dude is raw. That's going to take time.

Worst case scenario, his back injury costs him (in my opinion) his best feature: core strength. Without that, I'm not sure He even plays. He's big, strong and fast, but not smart. If the surgery takes away the strong or the fast, I'm not sure how he will do.

It's either a brilliant pick or super dumb, but we won't know for a while.


Either way, it answers my question the team had about tackles: they think we're good to go. And that's super concerning.

I'm not qualified to judge his football smarts compared to someone like Big Willie but I got to say he came across very well in his interviews. I'm not usually impressed by such things but I thought he seemed a very smart, impressive individual. He wasn't my choice in the 2nd round but I'm intrigued.

(05-02-2021, 12:13 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Man, I expected Carman to be your type of guy brother...huge people mover, very fleet-footed for his size, violent punch, smart/coachable player who has a pretty good amount of upside...especially at RG, where he could be a bulldozer.

I would have loved the pick, if it were in addition to another T/G that didn't have medical and technique issues, as I do love big, earth mover type of OL.  While the same scouting reports talk about his athleticism, they also go on to bring up his "clunky feet" as a detriment, and say that he might not be quick and agile enough to get around the edge versus NFL players.

So, even at putting him at Guard, and assuming that he'll be in perfect medical condition;  You're still somewhat limited in what you can ask him to do.  He might do well straight ahead blocking, provided he learns to bring his feet up under him without getting his torso overextended, he might do well on inside trap plays, but he's not the guy you want pulling around the edge from the backside.

All initial biases and gripes about the pick aside, I could see him being a really good player in 1-2 years, should his back remain solid, and Coach Pollack be able to coach him up a bit.  I just think it rather irresponsible of the front office to gamble with Burrow's protection on medical red flag guys like Carman (who I would have loved in addition to another with a clean bill or health), and Trey Hill coming off of double knee surgery.  I mean, when I look back at the board, we could have any of a slew of highly rated guys in round 2 that went between where we were scheduled to pick and where we did, and then could have landed a tough, healthy Center the next round in Kendrick Green.

It's obvious that the team strategy was to go for volume of players, in hopes of landing a couple that pan out into good/really good players, rather than staying upward in the draft and going for higher quality.  After watching Burrow go down the way he did last season, and seeing (what I thought) was a really meager attempt to bring in OL in free agency, I just expected more in the draft.