(05-23-2021, 01:00 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: They both owe me.  They (the Bengals) were heavily involved in that entire process and helped shape public opinion.  They also hired the county commissioner (Bob Beddinghaus) who spearheaded the entire campaign on the county side (shady AF).

As far as the bringing a lot to the economy of the county, that has been disproven numerous.  And not just here, but in general.  NFL teams don't bring in anywhere near what they claim.  Their numbers rely on some of the most ridiculous assumptions (No one would do anything on Sundays or spend if there wasn't football, every restaurant and bar patron within so many miles is only eating or drinking there because of the NFL, etc.)

If this is true why would any state or county use tax payer money to help build stadiums? Almost all NFL stadiums are built and run with tax payer dollars.

(05-23-2021, 02:13 PM)Synric Wrote: If this is true why would any state or county use tax payer money to help build stadiums? Almost all NFL stadiums are built and run with tax payer dollars.

I guarantee there is a great many cities that would like to have an NFL team. The idea that the Bengals owe the citizens of Hamilton County is just silly. 

Are there folks that actually think if Hamilton County chooses not to assist the Bengals with tax payer money the Bengals couldn't find another home? 

(05-23-2021, 12:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The citizens of Hamilton County voted for the sales tax, not the Bengals. 

But the Bengals promised a winning team in return. They did not deliver to this day.

(05-23-2021, 02:13 PM)Synric Wrote: If this is true why would any state or county use tax payer money to help build stadiums? Almost all NFL stadiums are built and run with tax payer dollars.

https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/

https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/economic-benefits-nfl-stadium-boom-vastly-overblown-131446171.html

https://huddleup.substack.com/p/how-the-nfl-is-scamming-taxpayers

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/sports-jobs-taxes-are-new-stadiums-worth-the-cost/

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/sports-stadiums-can-be-bad-cities/576334/

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/public-money-used-build-sports-stadiums

(05-23-2021, 02:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Are there folks that actually think if Hamilton County chooses not to assist the Bengals with tax payer money the Bengals couldn't find another home? 

Did anyone say they couldn't?  I don't remember that argument being made.  It's besides the point.

I can assure you, if the Bengals did find another home, and used 100% public funding to finance their stadium, those fans would have expectations for their investment too.

If you're going to use tax pay dollar to subsidize your mult-Billion dollar company you better believe you owe your fans and the tax payers.

(05-23-2021, 02:21 PM)GodFather Wrote: But the Bengals promised a winning team in return. They did not deliver to this day.

I don't see that in the lease summary:

Quote:LEASE SUMMARY

TEAM: Cincinnati BENGALS
Team Owner: Mike Brown
Team Website
FACILITY: Paul Brown Stadium
Facility Website
Year Built: 2000
TITLE OF AGREEMENT: Lease Agreement
Lessor: Board of Commissioners of Hamilton County, Ohio
Lessee: Cincinnati Bengals, Inc.
TERM OF AGREEMENT:
The Term shall commence on the date “on which Team occupies the entire Stadium Complex . . .
and end on June 30, 2026” or “on such earlier date on which this Lease has been terminated
pursuant to the terms of this Lease.” Section 5.1, page 21.
ANNUAL FIXED PAYMENT:
“Team shall pay an annual base rent (‘Base Rent’) to County for the Stadium Complex during
the first nine (9) Lease Years in accordance with the following schedule:
Lease Year Base Rent
1 (2000) $1,700,000.00
2 (2001) $1,600,000.00
3 (2002) $1,500,000.00
4 (2003) $1,400,000.00
5 (2004) $1,300,000.00
6 (2005) $1,200,000.00
7 (2006) $1,100,000.00
8 (2007) $1,000,000.00
9 (2008) $900,000.00.”
Section 6.1, page 24.
TERMINATION OF LEASE:
Team Default:
“The occurrence of any one or more of the following matters constitutes a default (each, a ‘Team
Default’) by Team under this Lease:
22.1.1 Team’s failure to pay any Rent or other charges due and payable to County within
thirty (30) days after written notice thereof from County to Team;
22.1.2 Team’s failure to observe or perform in any material respect any other covenant,
agreement, condition or provision of this Lease
22.1.3 Team admits in writing its inability to pay its debts as they mature, or makes an
assignment for the benefit of creditors
2
22.1.4 A trustee or receiver is appointed for Team or for the major part of its property and
is not discharged within thirty (3) days after such appointment; or
22.1.5 Bankruptcy, reorganization, arrangement, insolvency or liquidation proceedings, or
other proceedings for relief under any bankruptcy law, or similar law for the relief of
debtors, are instituted by or against Team.”
Section 22.1, page 53.
USE OF FACILITY:
The “Team and its officers, directors, agents, employees, contractors, licensees, invitees and
guests shall be entitled to possession and use of the Stadium Complex for the following purposes
and no other purposes:
8.1.1 To play NFL pre-season, regular season and post-season football games . . .
8.1.2 To present events related to the NFL college player draft . . .
8.1.3 To conduct . . . bona fide football-related activities . . .
8.1.4 To use and to occupy, on a 365-day year round exclusive basis, the Exclusive Leased
Premises
8.1.5 To use and to occupy, on a 365-day year round exclusive basis, the Private Suites
Section 8.1, pages 25-26.
MAINTENANCE:
“County is responsible for performing, or, in the event County has retained a Manager, causing
the Manager to perform, Routine Maintenance . . . and County, in any event, is responsible for
paying the cost of Routine Maintenance.” Section 13.1, page 43.
INSURANCE:
Team’s Insurance:
“Team shall procure and maintain policies of insurance, at its sole cost and expense, during the
entire Term hereof as follows:” commercial general liability insurance, workers’ compensation
insurance, standard fire insurance, and liquor liability insurance.” Section 25.2, page 61.
County’s Insurance:
“County shall procure and maintain policies of insurance, at its sole cost and expense, during the
entire Term hereof as follows:” commercial general liability insurance, fire and casualty insurance,
and standard fire and extended coverage insurance.” Section 25.3, page 61.

(05-23-2021, 02:32 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Did anyone say they couldn't?  I don't remember that argument being made.  It's besides the point.

I can assure you, if the Bengals did find another home, and used 100% public funding to finance their stadium, those fans would have expectations for their investment too.

If you're going to use tax pay dollar to subsidize your mult-Billion dollar company you better believe you owe your fans and the tax payers.

I get it, you feel you are "owed" more; but the simple fact is you are not. 

(05-23-2021, 02:28 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/

https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/economic-benefits-nfl-stadium-boom-vastly-overblown-131446171.html

https://huddleup.substack.com/p/how-the-nfl-is-scamming-taxpayers

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/sports-jobs-taxes-are-new-stadiums-worth-the-cost/

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/sports-stadiums-can-be-bad-cities/576334/

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/public-money-used-build-sports-stadiums

It's funny alot of those articles mention the Rams moving didnt kill the economy of St. Louis but none of them mention that St. Louis has become one of the fastest declining population.

(05-23-2021, 02:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I get it, you feel you are "owed" more; but the simple fact is you are not. 

If you're talking legally, then you're correct.  They legally owe the fans nothing, apart from fielding a team.  But ethically?  Well, that's a different story.

(05-23-2021, 02:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I don't see that in the lease summary:

You left this part out

Bengals promise to match tax payers money with putting the resources and work in to produce a winning franchise for Hamilton Country and the state of Ohio and not into Mike Browns bank account.

(05-23-2021, 11:57 AM)bfine32 Wrote: True, It just seems many look for the dark cloud in front of the silver lining in every situation. 

Not saying one is "better" than the other; I just cannot understand the mentality. 

Not every situation. Everyone on here has positive and negative views on certain things surrounding the team. I've been accused of being a homer countless times through the years, when I have a sunny take on something.

Some of us are just much more up front and bold with our stances when we see something wrong, and those people tend to get slapped with the hater label or something akin to that.

I don't understand the "pretend everything is fine" side, myself. I'm more of an "identify the problem and talk about how to solve it" kind of person, myself...even if there's really not much we can do as fans...but isn't that true of everything we discuss on here?

We have no impact on the draft, free agency, what player needs more PT, etc, but we discuss those things anyway.

Anyways...I do respect that not everyone thinks like I do, and there's a different type of fan on here. I don't agree with the everything is gonna be fine crowd, but I'm also not going to call them out and question their fandom. Which has constantly happened to the "haters" on this board during my 10 years.

Thankfully it's not as bad as the "hater vs homer" Denny days, but it still bubbles to the surface from time to time.

(05-23-2021, 02:13 PM)Synric Wrote: If this is true why would any state or county use tax payer money to help build stadiums? Almost all NFL stadiums are built and run with tax payer dollars.

Actually there are a good amount (13 NFL Teams) that are split costs. The Bengals paid less for their new stadium then any other NFL franchise except Tampa who got their stadium 100% privately funded versus the Bengals getting 94% public funds.

Meanwhile:

49ers took the hit for 88%
Giants and Jets took the hit for 100%
Cowboys picked up 63%
Eagles 64%
Pats 83%
Lions 75%
Redskins 72%

https://web.archive.org/web/20190405090648/https://cbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/nfl-funding-summary-12-2-11.pdf

This shows the breakdown of private versus public funds for new stadiums since 1997 but only goes to 2014 as it lists Levi's Stadium as being proposed.

Since then you can add:

Rams and their 100% privately funded stadium

Chargers playing in the Rams stadium

Raiders and the financing for the project came in the form of $750 million in public funding and $1.1 billion from the Raiders.

Vikings new stadium. The project is projected to have a $975 million price tag, with the Vikings covering $477 million, the state covering $348 million, and $150 million covered by a hospitality tax in Minneapolis.


The Falcons new stadium which I don't have exact numbers but the Falcons certainly footed a portion of the bill.



What really makes the deal even worse in Cincinnati though is the Bengals having control over what the stadium can be used for outside of football season versus other stadiums where concerts and other events take place and allow more revenue to help compensate the loss in tax-payer money.

(05-23-2021, 02:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I don't see that in the lease summary:

"It's garden-variety contract law," said Portune, adding that promises made in contracts are "not limited to the four corners of the document" but also include "representations of people in authority" during the negotiating process. Portune argued the Bengals owner repeatedly told the county and others that the team needed its lease to be competitive. Taxpayers did their part, Portune argued, but Mike Brown has not.


https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2002/12/09/story2.html


There are several more articles out there just a Google search away, that express that Mike Brown told the County "Hey, we need a new stadium to be competitive. We get a new stadium and we'll be competitive." 

0 playoff wins since the stadium was built with 94% private funds.

The Bengals 100% owe the taxpayers of Hamilton County more then they have given them at this point. They continue to hold the longest play-off drought in NFL history. There is no possible way anyone, even Fred, can spin the longest drought in NFL history as being "competitive".

(05-23-2021, 10:41 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: "It's garden-variety contract law," said Portune, adding that promises made in contracts are "not limited to the four corners of the document" but also include "representations of people in authority" during the negotiating process. Portune argued the Bengals owner repeatedly told the county and others that the team needed its lease to be competitive. Taxpayers did their part, Portune argued, but Mike Brown has not.


https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2002/12/09/story2.html


There are several more articles out there just a Google search away, that express that Mike Brown told the County "Hey, we need a new stadium to be competitive. We get a new stadium and we'll be competitive." 

0 playoff wins since the stadium was built with 94% private funds.

The Bengals 100% owe the taxpayers of Hamilton County more then they have given them at this point. They continue to hold the longest play-off drought in NFL history. There is no possible way anyone, even Fred, can spin the longest drought in NFL history as being "competitive".

I do recall talks of competitive; although they were not part of the contract. You said "winning"

What exactly do they owe you?

(05-23-2021, 11:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I do recall talks of competitive; although they were not part of the contract. You said "winning"

What exactly do they owe you?

An attempt to be a competitive franchise is what they owe everyone who had to pay an increased tax so that penny pinching crook can sit around and count money. That, or a check to refund the extra money spent on taxes for the b.s. Brown fed everyone. If you ordered something from Amazon, and it wasn't what it was supposed to be in the description and picture, would you just keep it, or send it back for the right item or a refund? The Bengals have been a defective Amazon product since they threatened to leave and forced the county to build PBS in 1998.

No refund? Fine then give us the product we were promised when we voted. A real attempt at being competitive.

That attempt means:

Hire a front office staff (not friends and family real football people) and show the tax-payers that they have literally fleeced for years that they are going to make a real effort to have a successful franchise.

Stop being the doormat of your biggest rivals. (The Steelers absolutely have owned the Bengals since PBS opened).

No one can consider what they have done since Mike Brown took over in 1991 competitive.

You can't even call what they have done since Paul Brown Stadium opened competitive. Sure, they've made 7 playoff appearances, but zero success to show for it, not a single damn win. 

Plus, 7 trips to the playoffs over a 21 season span really doesn't show much. 11 losing season. 3 .500 seasons. Is that competitive to you? If so your bar for success and competitive is much lower then mine.

Good news is this, the lease runs out soon and with the B.S. performance they've done since PBS opened there has to be a very real chance that they don't get any more money from taxpayers nor should they. Start winning meaningful games and show competitiveness like New England, Green Bay, Seattle, Pitt, Kansas City, etc, teams that work the cap and have scouts and GMs. 

So what do they owe me you ask, well let me get my receipts together and compile every cent of extra tax that I've paid since the stadium was built and either cut me a check for failing to hold up their end of the agreement and refund my money or... hold up your end and make real change.

(05-23-2021, 11:16 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: How do the Bengals owe their fans, and specifically the local ones, nothing?

The county had paid out somewhere in the neighborhood of 900 million dollars for Paul Brown Stadium.  I'm not sure if those who live out of town can fully appreciate this.  It's not just some arbitrary number, it has a real cost.  A cost we've beared for 25 years.

I've actually tried before to roughly estimate just how much it's cost me personally, and it gets paid out in so many ways it's hard to do.  But I do know it's well into thousands.

Here's just a few real world examples of it, that someone who lives here experiences.

---20k car purchase  >>> $100 added in taxes goes to the Bengals.

---Spent 10k at Home Depot while remodeling >>> $50 in tax goes to the Bengals

---$150 at Target >>>  .75 cents into the Bengals tray.

---New $1,000 TV at Best Buy >>> $5 added in taxes goes to the Bengals.

---New Playstation or Xbox >>>> $2.50 added in taxes goes to the Bengas.

---12 pack of beer >>>  Throw .06 cents into the Bengals jar.

---Someone who has regularly smoked or dipped, had paid the Bengals over $300 just in taxes over these 25 years.

Now these might not sound like a lot on their own, but they had up.  We get taxed on everything.  So if you do this over and over, and over again you'll start to see how this gets so expensive. 

Most adults have probably bought 3 or 4 cars in these 25 years.  They've probably shopped for clothing at Target or Macy or Footlocker dozens and dozens of times.  They've probably had a handful of TV, and a couple of video game systems.  That .06 on beer looks a lot different when you account for hundreds of purchases.

So we're not really talking about a normal product.  It's not as simple as saying if you don't like this new flavor of Pringles then don't eat it.  This is subsidized by the tax payers of Hamilton County.

Nothing bothers me more on here than when people make this argument (they owe you nothing), especally when they're from out of town.  They do owe us.  They owe us a lot.

Not to mention, taxes aside, when you pay for a product (tickets purchased, advertising made off of your interest) you're entitled to complain about a substandard return.  If the Bengals were a normal product, like let's say an faulty or shitty HP laptop, the consumer would get a refund, replacment, or they'd return it.  If it were a messed up food order they'd either comp you, give you a new order, or give you a discount.  Unfortunately, that's not the case with a product like this.

Please stop saying the Bengals owe their fans nothing.  It's total bullshit.

/rantover

Tax payers voted yes on the stadium, end of story. You have no financial investment in the Bengals, they don't owe you nothing. 

(05-23-2021, 12:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The citizens of Hamilton County voted for the sales tax, not the Bengals. 

Bingo!

(05-23-2021, 02:21 PM)GodFather Wrote: But the Bengals promised a winning team in return. They did not deliver to this day.

They have had a number of winning seasons since the stadium was built....

(05-24-2021, 01:57 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: An attempt to be a competitive franchise is what they owe everyone who had to pay an increased tax so that penny pinching crook can sit around and count money. That, or a check to refund the extra money spent on taxes for the b.s. Brown fed everyone. If you ordered something from Amazon, and it wasn't what it was supposed to be in the description and picture, would you just keep it, or send it back for the right item or a refund? The Bengals have been a defective Amazon product since they threatened to leave and forced the county to build PBS in 1998.

No refund? Fine then give us the product we were promised when we voted. A real attempt at being competitive.

That attempt means:

Hire a front office staff (not friends and family real football people) and show the tax-payers that they have literally fleeced for years that they are going to make a real effort to have a successful franchise.

Stop being the doormat of your biggest rivals. (The Steelers absolutely have owned the Bengals since PBS opened).

No one can consider what they have done since Mike Brown took over in 1991 competitive.

You can't even call what they have done since Paul Brown Stadium opened competitive. Sure, they've made 7 playoff appearances, but zero success to show for it, not a single damn win. 

Plus, 7 trips to the playoffs over a 21 season span really doesn't show much. 11 losing season. 3 .500 seasons. Is that competitive to you? If so your bar for success and competitive is much lower then mine.

Good news is this, the lease runs out soon and with the B.S. performance they've done since PBS opened there has to be a very real chance that they don't get any more money from taxpayers nor should they. Start winning meaningful games and show competitiveness like New England, Green Bay, Seattle, Pitt, Kansas City, etc, teams that work the cap and have scouts and GMs. 

So what do they owe me you ask, well let me get my receipts together and compile every cent of extra tax that I've paid since the stadium was built and either cut me a check for failing to hold up their end of the agreement and refund my money or... hold up your end and make real change.

You wouldn't make it in the door of the courthouse. Did you vote yes? If you did, did the Bengals hold a gun to your head to vote yes? It doesn't matter where the bar is set for being competitive. 

(05-24-2021, 03:26 AM)sandwedge Wrote: You wouldn't make it in the door of the courthouse. Did you vote yes? If you did, did the Bengals hold a gun to your head to vote yes? It doesn't matter where the bar is set for being competitive. 

I'll never understand "fans" that are just content with mediocrity.