(06-15-2021, 05:55 PM)Whatever Wrote: Boyd played 55 in games in that time compared to 58 for JuJu.  Plus, if we're being fair, Boyd was benched for a poor attitude his 2nd season, which he seems to have straightened out.  

Yeah, I remembered why he was benched, and the whole deal with his borrowed car. I just wasn't sure how many JJ played. So, it's three more games played than Boyd with less yards and seven more TDs. I'd call em about even with that knowledge. 


Edit: and Boyd has played on a far inferior team the last few years.

(06-15-2021, 05:48 PM)Wyche Wrote: Your point stands, but I can't BELIEVE you forgot about The Snake, Ken Stabler.

Here I thought Kenny was older than Joe Namath, but turns out he was a Redshirt freshman when Joe led the Tide to a National Title.  Joe sure looks younger than Kenny today.  My bad.  I guess I am not a very big Snake fan since he is in the HoF and Kenny Anderson is not.  

(06-16-2021, 07:25 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Here I thought Kenny was older than Joe Namath, but turns out he was a Redshirt freshman when Joe led the Tide to a National Title.  Joe sure looks younger than Kenny today.  My bad.  I guess I am not a very big Snake fan since he is in the HoF and Kenny Anderson is not.  

Ha ha, I was just messing around. They were both hard partiers, Snake maybe moreso. I agree about Anderson, but Stabler has the ring.... and that pretty much seals that...right or wrong.

(06-16-2021, 10:55 AM)Wyche Wrote: Ha ha, I was just messing around. They were both hard partiers, Snake maybe moreso. I agree about Anderson, but Stabler has the ring.... and that pretty much seals that...right or wrong.

Yeah, I think the Snake also was a smoker, even when he played.  And it is very wrong...About the HoF.  VERY WRONG.  

(06-14-2021, 06:59 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: All due respect to Curtis, but he's an overrated trendy hipster pick when it comes to best WR discussion. He was never as dominant as Chad or AJ in their primes.

Shake, I've been called a few things in my many years on the planet, but "trendy hipster" is a first.  

Did you ever see Curtis play?

(06-17-2021, 09:12 AM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: Shake, I've been called a few things in my many years on the planet, but "trendy hipster" is a first.  

Did you ever see Curtis play?

I don't want to answer for Shake but speaking for myself, I agree with him.  I never saw him play so that might be unfair but that stats aren't there.  Maybe someone can better help me understand why he's better than his numbers indicate.

---He only had 1 season out of 12 where he reached 900 yards.

---He only had 2 seasons out of 12 where he reached 800 yards.

---He only had 4 seasons out of 12 where he reached 700 yards.

---8 of his 12 seasons resulted in totals of 633 yards or less.

---He never hit 50 receptions in his entire career.  (His high was 45)

---He averaged 4.5 TD's a season over his 12 years.

---The 2nd half of his career (years 7-12) he fell completely off the map.

---He didn't make a single Pro Bowl after his first 4 seasons.

---He never once was a 1st team All-Pro

I do understand that it was a different game and teams threw the ball less.  I also understand he was playing a 14 game season early in his career.  And I know about the Issac Curtis rule too.  But it sure looks like he had a solid 4 year stretch to his begin his career and then didn't do a whole lot after.

I'm not saying he wasn't a damn good player but Chad Johnson in his prime was one of the elite receivers in the league.  He had 6 year run that almost no other player in the league could compete with over that same timespan.  I just don't see where I can say the same for Curtis.

Fwiw, here are Curtis ranks in receiving yards in his "prime".  I know it's hard to judge players across generations, so looking at him vs. his peers may help determine just how good he was in comparison to the guys who came later (Chad and AJ)

1973 - 5th
1974 - 13th
1975 - 2nd
1976- 13th
1977 - 68th
1978 - 23rd

Here's Chad "prime":

2002 - 15th
2003 - 4th
2004 - 6th
2005 - 3rd
2006 - 1st
2007 - 3rd

Here's AJ's prime:

2011 - 17th
2012 - 10th
2013 - 5th
2014 - 20th
2015 - 8th
2016 - 28th

I did learn more about Curtis in doing this.  Those first 4 years are no doubt strong for Curtis.  Frankly, they're probably better than AJ's ranks in his 4 best years.  But Chad Johnson was clearly the better player among his peers than Curtis was.  To finish top 6 in receiving 5 straight years blows almost anyone out of the water, including Isaac Curtis.  And I mean no offense to Curtis in pointing that out either.  I often will gladly point out that Chad blows AJ out of the water too.

Edit: I included AJ's prime as well.

It's hard to grade a group of 3 which contains a 2nd year player who only had 9 games with his current QB and a rookie compared to groups with established veterans. Chase could have a Jefferson type rookie season and Higgins could be a 1200 yard receiver, which I think easily puts us in the top 5.

Or, Chase starts slow and Higgins has a sophomore slump, putting us somewhere in the 20s.

I went with 7-12 because it felt like it incorporated the risk of two young WRs not living up to the hype while also accounting for the capability of the trio to be, literally, the best in the NFL.

(06-17-2021, 09:12 AM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: Shake, I've been called a few things in my many years on the planet, but "trendy hipster" is a first.  

Did you ever see Curtis play?

It just seems like whenever there's an obvious consensus on something, you'll always get that one guy who says "but what about ____". That's what I meant by hipster. It's clear that Chad was the most dominant WR in team history, but some people resent him, or have fondness for the "good ol days", so they bring up Isaac.

As Wes showed, Isaac didn't dominate among his own peers. He was a Bengals great...but just not quite as great as some on here claim he was. I'm 40, so no I didn't see him, but like Wes said, what made him so much better than what the stats show?

(06-17-2021, 11:14 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, here are Curtis ranks in receiving yards in his "prime".  I know it's hard to judge players across generations, so looking at him vs. his peers may help determine just how good he was in comparison to the guys who came later (Chad and AJ)

1973 - 5th
1974 - 13th
1975 - 2nd
1976- 13th
1977 - 68th
1978 - 23rd

Here's Chad "prime":

2002 - 15th
2003 - 4th
2004 - 6th
2005 - 3rd
2006 - 1st
2007 - 3rd

Here's AJ's prime:

2011 - 17th
2012 - 10th
2013 - 5th
2014 - 20th
2015 - 8th
2016 - 28th

I did learn more about Curtis in doing this.  Those first 4 years are no doubt strong for Curtis.  Frankly, they're probably better than AJ's ranks in his 4 best years.  But Chad Johnson was clearly the better player among his peers than Curtis was.  To finish top 6 in receiving 5 straight years blows almost anyone out of the water, including Isaac Curtis.  And I mean no offense to Curtis in pointing that out either.  I often will gladly point out that Chad blows AJ out of the water too.

Edit: I included AJ's prime as well.

The two area where Curtis dominated Chad was Yards Per Catch and he was a TD machine.. he had 53 TDs in just 416 catches, Chad had  66 TDs in 751 catches

(06-17-2021, 05:22 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: The two area where Curtis dominated Chad was Yards Per Catch and he was a TD machine.. he had 53 TDs in just 416 catches, Chad had  66 TDs in 751 catches

Curtis had 2 years with 20+ yards/catch.  That's pretty insane.

Unfortunately, we don't have advanced data for things like catch % and yards/target for Curtis.

(06-17-2021, 11:02 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I don't want to answer for Shake but speaking for myself, I agree with him.  I never saw him play so that might be unfair but that stats aren't there.  Maybe someone can better help me understand why he's better than his numbers indicate.

---He only had 1 season out of 12 where he reached 900 yards.

---He only had 2 seasons out of 12 where he reached 800 yards.

---He only had 4 seasons out of 12 where he reached 700 yards.

---8 of his 12 seasons resulted in totals of 633 yards or less.

---He never hit 50 receptions in his entire career.  (His high was 45)

---He averaged 4.5 TD's a season over his 12 years.

---The 2nd half of his career (years 7-12) he fell completely off the map.

---He didn't make a single Pro Bowl after his first 4 seasons.

---He never once was a 1st team All-Pro

I do understand that it was a different game and teams threw the ball less.  I also understand he was playing a 14 game season early in his career.  And I know about the Issac Curtis rule too.  But it sure looks like he had a solid 4 year stretch to his begin his career and then didn't do a whole lot after.

I'm not saying he wasn't a damn good player but Chad Johnson in his prime was one of the elite receivers in the league.  He had 6 year run that almost no other player in the league could compete with over that same timespan.  I just don't see where I can say the same for Curtis.

I was fortunate enough to have seen Curtis several times in person.  Our family would go to Wilmington College for training camp every year and also attend one or two regular season games in the 70's.  Curtis is still my mother's favorite all time Bengal.  I'm saying all this because I watched DB's do everything they could legal and illegally to throw Curtis off his routes.  Even during training camp.  Holding and going for the knees wasn't called like it is today.  A flag for hitting pass 5 or 10 yds was unheard of.

Also did you take a look at Ken Anderson's stats then.  He wasn't hitting 2,500 yds too much in Curtis's prime.  The Bengals was a 3 to 4 yds and a cloud of dust running team back then.  Curtis receiving yards was probably close to one third of Anderson's total yards passing for the season the 1st 7 years or so (that's a guess).  And when Collinsworth got there, teams still focused so hard on Curtis that it helped Collinsworth excel.

Curtis was so good and dangerous, think about this, they made the rule for a receiver that couldn't put up the stats because they were literally mugging him on the field.  They said he had world class speed.

(06-13-2021, 10:36 AM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: I think we are on the cusp of top six.

1.  Tampa Bay
2.  Tennessee
3.  Dallas
4.  Minnesota
5.  They who will not be named
6.  Seattle
7.  BENGALS

I put us in the top 6 because the potential is off the charts.  Also I'm a homer.

How you putting a team at number 5 that doesn't have a legit WR1?

I mean not even close.  Juju is a decent #2 on most teams but a #3 on some.

(06-14-2021, 03:40 PM)Whatever Wrote: Boyd has 3743 yards and 19 TD's in 5 years in the league.

JuJu has 3726 yards and 26 TD's in 4 years in the league.

Last year, Boyd had 10 more yards, but JuJu had 5 more TD's.  

I think the Bengals trio will be better than Pittsburgh's, but I can also understand that some want them to prove it before crowning them.

Those numbers are deceiving.

Juju had a freak year across from ab when Ben threw for over 5k and juju caught 1.4 of them.

Tyler has had to be wr1 due to aj injuries with no one lined up opposite him and a mary-go-round of shitty qbs.

Context matters.

 I'm not saying Boyds better but he's not worse and don't think either is a true wr1.

If Pittsburgh has a true wr1 on there team it's not juju.

Cincinnati however might have 2.

If burrow and chases chemistry translates to the NFL and Higgins continues to develop from a really good rookie season those 3 will be seriously dangerous.

Thanks to those who researched Isaac Curtis' career, and to commenters who were fortunate enough to see him play back in the day who shared their memories. Trust me when I say that it was like watching a ballet (after hand to hand combat to get off the line).

For the record, I place Chad unquestionably as the Bengals' all-time best. But Curtis HAS to be in the discussion with A.J. for second greatest.

Re. my ranking of Pittsburgh's receivers ahead of ours --they have three really good proven NFL receivers. In addition to being Speedy Thomas, I am also Doubting Thomas. Chase might blow them all away. But I'm gonna have to see him do it.

(06-16-2021, 10:55 AM)Wyche Wrote: Ha ha, I was just messing around. They were both hard partiers, Snake maybe moreso. I agree about Anderson, but Stabler has the ring.... and that pretty much seals that...right or wrong.

I do agree, but how is Fouts in the HoF then? He and Kenny had some great duels!

(06-17-2021, 08:35 PM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: Thanks to those who researched Isaac Curtis' career, and to commenters who were fortunate enough to see him play back in the day who shared their memories.  Trust me when I say that it was like watching a ballet (after hand to hand combat to get off the line).

For the record, I place Chad unquestionably as the Bengals' all-time best.  But Curtis HAS to be in the discussion with A.J. for second greatest.

Re. my ranking of Pittsburgh's receivers ahead of ours --they have three really good proven NFL receivers.  In addition to being Speedy Thomas, I am also Doubting Thomas.  Chase might blow them all away.  But I'm gonna have to see him do it.

Curtis was amazing in what was pretty much a time when DBs could do anything they wanted to do. Imagine what kind of numbers he would have had, if he had a free release off the LoS....

(06-17-2021, 06:12 PM)BacknDaDey Wrote: I was fortunate enough to have seen Curtis several times in person.  Our family would go to Wilmington College for training camp every year and also attend one or two regular season games in the 70's.  Curtis is still my mother's favorite all time Bengal.  I'm saying all this because I watched DB's do everything they could legal and illegally to throw Curtis off his routes.  Even during training camp.  Holding and going for the knees wasn't called like it is today.  A flag for hitting pass 5 or 10 yds was unheard of.

Also did you take a look at Ken Anderson's stats then.  He wasn't hitting 2,500 yds too much in Curtis's prime.  The Bengals was a 3 to 4 yds and a cloud of dust running team back then.  Curtis receiving yards was probably close to one third of Anderson's total yards passing for the season the 1st 7 years or so (that's a guess).  And when Collinsworth got there, teams still focused so hard on Curtis that it helped Collinsworth excel.

Curtis was so good and dangerous, think about this, they made the rule for a receiver that couldn't put up the stats because they were literally mugging him on the field.  They said he had world class speed.

In a separate post, Wes did list off his rankings in yardage for his prime. He didn't dominate his peers like Chad did, and was arguably worse than Green as well...and that's just yardage. Rankings are what caused me to have this opinion on Curtis. He didn't really dominate when compared to his peers...who obviously played in the same era with the same limitations.

That's all I'll say on this though. Curtis was great, just not great enough to be in the "best WR in franchise history" convo. I have him down with Collinsworth, Pickens and Eddie Brown...which isn't an insult by any stretch.

(06-17-2021, 11:50 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: In a separate post, Wes did list off his rankings in yardage for his prime. He didn't dominate his peers like Chad did, and was arguably worse than Green as well...and that's just yardage. Rankings are what caused me to have this opinion on Curtis. He didn't really dominate when compared to his peers...who obviously played in the same era with the same limitations.

That's all I'll say on this though. Curtis was great, just not great enough to be in the "best WR in franchise history" convo. I have him down with Collinsworth, Pickens and Eddie Brown...which isn't an insult by any stretch.

To me its the Big Three with Chad, Isaac and AJ then the rest.

Two areas where Curtis dominated Chad were Season TDs and Yards Per Catch with their peers. Get a bit tricky with Pro Football Reference with their ranking for TDs with Ties but below are the best 5 years for both of them

Best 5 Years NFL Ranking

Touchdowns

Issac -   2-5-11-12-14
Chad -   6-10-15-16-16

Yards Per Catch

Issac-    1-2-4-6-10
Chad-   12-12-16-20-31

(06-17-2021, 11:50 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: In a separate post, Wes did list off his rankings in yardage for his prime. He didn't dominate his peers like Chad did, and was arguably worse than Green as well...and that's just yardage. Rankings are what caused me to have this opinion on Curtis. He didn't really dominate when compared to his peers...who obviously played in the same era with the same limitations.

That's all I'll say on this though. Curtis was great, just not great enough to be in the "best WR in franchise history" convo. I have him down with Collinsworth, Pickens and Eddie Brown...which isn't an insult by any stretch.

I agree with you Shake.  Chad and AJ had far better total catches and yards.  No question.  All I'm saying is Curtis didn't have the same type stats because the Bengals were a run team in his era.  Anderson wasn't slinging as much like Palmer and Dalton.  You have to have passing plays called in order to produce receiving stats.