(06-23-2021, 02:37 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Although I like what Zac and Duke have done from a roster standpoint, specifically the types of players they have added through free agency and the draft, and moving on from the old guard...at some point it has to show up on the field and produce winning results.

This team now has a potential (talent wise) top 10 QB, RB and WR corps, an elite S, a much improved D-line and an O-line, that while still not great, should be a lot better than last year. If they can stay relatively healthy (which has been an issue) there are no excuses this season. 

It's on Zac to get wins out of this roster, and not just more than last year...but enough to produce a winning season. If you look at coaches who have started with 5 or less wins in each of their first 2 years since 2000, zero ever produced a winning year and only 18% survived a 3rd season and none made it past a 4th. Those are the odds Zac and the Bengals facing right now. 

Can Zac do what no other coach with his record has been able to over the last 20 years? I think he can and I think he will. I think he breaks that trend and I really feel like the Bengals will win 10 games this season. When you look at the culture he is creating, the types of personalities he's added and the overall chemistry I see this team having as the season plays out...I think it's going to be a fun year. 

I've had plenty of issues with Zac over the course of his first 2 seasons...like hiring Turner, not firing Lou, and his questionable play calling at times and I've often thought that doesn't exactly match his accomplishments...but with all that being said, I also think there are things to be positive and hopeful about like the guys his bring in, the fact that players are seemingly still on board with his plan, the approach in free agency, not being afraid to part ways with guys like Geno, Dunlap, Bernard, etc. I think he's making the right moves in most instances. Now it's time for those moves to pay off on the field...and I honestly think we'll see that this season. 

Great post Holic, I feel the same. I think we make the Playoffs this year and win a game in the Playoffs.

I think the light comes on for Zac and the roster turnover is finally accomplished to make this team a contender.

We will see, the first 2 years have had lots of head scratchers under the man. But he is young and the team has been hit hard 
by injuries and the trenches sucked. We now have new players in the trenches and new coaches coaching them up. Hard to win 
games as a HC in the NFL when your trenches on both sides of the ball and the coaches coaching them have been so bad.

(06-23-2021, 03:29 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: One of the things Zac has going for him that Shula never really did, is that players seem to like and respect him, and are buying into what he's selling...even though the results haven't been there on the field yet. 

We'll see how things play out, but I think that's important and gives Zac a much better shot than Shula ever had.

Another great point. The players have bought in under Zac unlike Shula...

(06-25-2021, 08:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Another great point. The players have bought in under Zac unlike Shula...

I guarantee that if you went back and looked at the newspapers from the Shula era the players were saying good things about him also.

(06-26-2021, 06:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I guarantee that if you went back and looked at the newspapers from the Shula era the players were saying good things about him also.

Could be, we will see if we keep losing if the players don't go all Dunlap on Zac...

(06-25-2021, 02:21 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Who's standards do we go by NFL standards if so then there's a reason the rest of the NFL fans think the Bengals suck because we've had 5 shitty seasons.   As far as the money we've spent it's pretty damn significant compared to the previous 15 years under the Marvin Lewis regime.   I'd love to see what the most money spent in free agency was during Marvin's time period.  It couldn't have been that much.  When comparing it to what they've spent over the last 2 off seasons there has to be no comparison. 

I think there's talent on the defensive side of the ball but do i think we're deep on that side? No.  Our LB corp is young and slim.  One or two injuries and we'll be searching the waiver wire.  The only place on defense I'd say were stacked is the defensive backfield.  However, that's stacked with quite a few cast offs from other organizations.  However, I do like the starting pieces.  

You and I both know this organization is never going to spend all the money they have.  There always going to carry money over to the next NFL season because that's the way they've operated since Paul Brown.  

The more this organization changes and comes into 2021...the more it stays the same and stays in the 80/90's.  

Well they're playing against other NFL teams rather than Bengals' teams of the past, so surely that's the standard?

(06-27-2021, 02:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Could be, we will see if we keep losing if the players don't go all Dunlap on Zac...

The optimistic take is that we finally have a team that wants to win, so if we don't win they should be pretty unhappy.  Playoffs or bust this year, being a franchise that needs 5+ years to rebuild puts us in some bad company. 

(06-26-2021, 06:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I guarantee that if you went back and looked at the newspapers from the Shula era the players were saying good things about him also.

Willie has since deleted the tweet (and the subsequent thread), but he and Jevon Langford had VERY disparaging things to say about Shula, about 2-3 years ago.

(I went to post it when I first saw you post this, but couldn't find it, ultimately leading to a deadlink, "this tweet has been deleted," when I did find an article referencing it).

The only thing that matters is wins. If ZT leads another losing season and players still love him they can follow him to the XFL.

The worst scenario is that ZT is hopeless as a HC and we end up rolling into Burrows 4th or 5th season finally "ready to see what he can do with a real coach."

(06-29-2021, 11:01 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Willie has since deleted the tweet (and the subsequent thread), but he and Jevon Langford had VERY disparaging things to say about Shula, about 2-3 years ago.

My point was that they did not say those things when they were playing for Shula.

No matter how bad a coach sucks it is rare for players to rip him publicly while they are playing for him.

(06-29-2021, 05:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My point was that they did not say those things when they were playing for Shula.

No matter how bad a coach sucks it is rare for players to rip him publicly while they are playing for him.

Maybe they did, we don't know; Social Media gives them the opportunity to say what they want, but as it never existed in the mid-90s, who knows what was said.

(06-29-2021, 05:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My point was that they did not say those things when they were playing for Shula.

No matter how bad a coach sucks it is rare for players to rip him publicly while they are playing for him.

Fred, I dont agree with you a lot but I have to agree with you on this topic. 

Players back then were just as vocal about coaches as they are now.  

David Shula was chased out of Cincinnati because of how many fans were in the seats after 4 years, not whether players liked him or not. 

We'll see what these players attitudes are if we're 3-9 at some point this year and out of the playoff picture. 

Do they still play hard or do they say F*** this.  

(06-29-2021, 06:26 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Maybe they did, we don't know; Social Media gives them the opportunity to say what they want, but as it never existed in the mid-90s, who knows what was said.

Uh, I gotta wonder about folks' memories Truck. Didn't we have Carl Pickens and Lee Johnson blasting everything during that time? Didn't Gary Reasons disrespect him on the sidelines? 

I'm in prove it mode for Zac, but I don't see any of that going on right now with his players.

(06-24-2021, 09:21 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Yea our offensive line has sucked for a few years now and guess who hired the coach that coached that offensive line that sucked?  

Isn't the person to hold responsible for hiring that OL coach the reigning head coach?  He had to have a confidence in that OL that he'd turn them into what he wanted.  Yet that OL coach turned them into a pile of shit.  

Yea we let Turner go.  He should've been fired as soon as Burrow went down last season.  However, I don't give Taylor credit for that hire. I give credit to the front office for Pollack being hired due to their previous relationship.  If Taylor is fired this year, them Pollack will still be the OL coach when a new Head Coach is named next year.   That i'll guarantee. 

Good point on Turner, but the line has been crumbling since 2016. Game 1 in 2016, Dalton was sacked 7 times and still put up 366 yds and we squeaked out a win against NYJ. By the end of that year, 14 was shell shocked and went downhill from there on. So did the line. Turner was a bum, no doubt. That said, the drafts of Og and Fish set this team back a good 5 years as far as oline play goes. That, coupled with bargain bin FA until the last couple of off-seasons spelled doom for that unit. Not to mention the Price bust.

(07-01-2021, 11:07 AM)Wyche Wrote: Good point on Turner, but the line has been crumbling since 2016. Game 1 in 2016, Dalton was sacked 7 times and still put up 366 yds and we squeaked out a win against NYJ. By the end of that year, 14 was shell shocked and went downhill from there on. So did the line. Turner was a bum, no doubt. That said, the drafts of Og and Fish set this team back a good 5 years as far as oline play goes. That, coupled with bargain bin FA until the last couple of off-seasons spelled doom for that unit. Not to mention the Price bust.

However Wyche, the responsibility for that hire falls on Zac's back.  He's had a personal relationship with the coach and brought him on board and he was so good that he's been fired 2 years later.  

The front office and scouts who drafted Og and Fischer are still in place.  The only one missing is PA.  

I mean if you read this board according to some coaches don't do the drafting the Duke and the scouts do. 

So I guess that's why so many people have doubts about our ability to draft OL even with brining on Pollack.  

(07-01-2021, 11:22 AM)TJ528 Wrote: However Wyche, the responsibility for that hire falls on Zac's back.  He's had a personal relationship with the coach and brought him on board and he was so good that he's been fired 2 years later.  

The front office and scouts who drafted Og and Fischer are still in place.  The only one missing is PA.  

I mean if you read this board according to some coaches don't do the drafting the Duke and the scouts do. 

So I guess that's why so many people have doubts about our ability to draft OL even with brining on Pollack.  

Oh yeah, don't mistake my point for an overwhelming support of Zac. I should've been more specific in regards to agreeing with you about Turner. That's 100% on Zac. So are a lot of other issues.

My point was, and still is, that unit was an absolute dumpster fire when he got here. I blame the FO, because Marvin had a great line from 2011-2015 that he helped assemble. The team didn't do very well maintaining it. Nor did they do him any favors when the stellar oline he inherited started to falter. 

With the secrecy that shrouds the operation of this franchise, it's hard to say who does what. That said, I don't believe the drafts fall squarely on the coaches. I can't imagine Marvin was very happy with the John Ross pick.

(07-01-2021, 11:33 AM)Wyche Wrote: Oh yeah, don't mistake my point for an overwhelming support of Zac. I should've been more specific in regards to agreeing with you about Turner. That's 100% on Zac. So are a lot of other issues.

My point was, and still is, that unit was an absolute dumpster fire when he got here. I blame the FO, because Marvin had a great line from 2011-2015 that he helped assemble. The team didn't do very well maintaining it. Nor did they do him any favors when the stellar oline he inherited started to falter. 

With the secrecy that shrouds the operation of this franchise, it's hard to say who does what. That said, I don't believe the drafts fall squarely on the coaches. I can't imagine Marvin was very happy with the John Ross pick.

Dude that units been a dumpster fire since they let Whit leave.  One thing this organization has proven is they can't draft a competent OL.  

As far as Jonah get back to me at the end of the 2021 season and we'll see if he can play a 16 game season.  

I think he's a good player but I just don't think he can hold up in a 17 game season now, not including the Playoffs and Pre-Season.

(07-01-2021, 11:37 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Dude that units been a dumpster fire since they let Whit leave.  One thing this organization has proven is they can't draft a competent OL.  

As far as Jonah get back to me at the end of the 2021 season and we'll see if he can play a 16 game season.  

I think he's a good player but I just don't think he can hold up in a 17 game season now, not including the Playoffs and Pre-Season.

That's been the knock on Jonah, for sure. All the tangibles and intangibles are there. I don't think he ever missed much time, if any, at Bama? Just our luck, right? I have an older brother that coaches oline in high school, and we both played oline, he was actually a LT all the way through college.... doesn't make us experts, obviously....I still remember the text he sent me on that draft night "best pick of the first round!". He's die hard Raider nation too. Dammit it's rough being a Bengals fan...lol.

(07-01-2021, 11:45 AM)Wyche Wrote: That's been the knock on Jonah, for sure. All the tangibles and intangibles are there. I don't think he ever missed much time, if any, at Bama? Just our luck, right? I have an older brother that coaches oline in high school, and we both played oline, he was actually a LT all the way through college.... doesn't make us experts, obviously....I still remember the text he sent me on that draft night "best pick of the first round!". He's die hard Raider nation too. Dammit it's rough being a Bengals fan...lol

Yes that's the bad part of being a Bengals fan.  Ki-Jana Carter didnt have injury issues at PSU but damn if he didnt blow out his knee in the preseason in Detroit....Carson never had injury problems at USC but the Stoolers took out his knee and then he has a bummed elbow too.  I mean honestly look at Mixon dude never got hurt at Oklahoma but he can't stay healthy in the NFL.  
It's just a different animal than college football.  
I hope Jonah turns it around plays 16 games a season for the next 10 years but you gotta show it on the field first before i'll believe it. 

(06-26-2021, 06:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I guarantee that if you went back and looked at the newspapers from the Shula era the players were saying good things about him also.

Not sure about Shula, but Carl Pickens had no issues craping on Coslet https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pickens-rips-coslet-recants/

I think with many players across all positions freely coming out and being positive it's fair to take the word. There is wayyyy too much evidence that the players like Zac. It's not just 1 or 2 guys. Or just to local or national media. None of their behavior has come off as 2 faced. They haven't been caught double talking about ZT.

You saying they say positive things out of obligation really isn't backed up by their actions, is it? You don't have any sort of evidence to support your theory on these players and this coach, right?

Dunlap had no issues running his mouth during and after his stint with the Bengals. He was extremely unhappy and voiced that. And the players didn't seem to support or pile on his sentiments. Burfict had no issues taking a public dump on Teryl Austin in interviews during the season. 

Silence is deafening. If they were just quietly showing up when they had to and going home, then that would be concerning. But that's not what's happening. They are 100% in attendance for VOLUNTARY stuff. They aren't doing that if they thought Zac sucked.

I get what you're saying in theory, I just don't know what's actually prompting you to say it as if it's reality... other than you're projecting your dislike for Taylor onto the players because you can't make sense of their support of him. It goes against your feelings.

(07-01-2021, 12:28 PM)PDub8 Wrote: Silence is deafening. 

Except we don't have silence. In addition to Dunlap talking like Pickens we have also had Darious Phillips and Shawn Williams accusing them of "wasting talent" on social media.

(07-01-2021, 03:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except we don't have silence. In addition to Dunlap talking like Pickens we have also had Darious Phillips and Shawn Williams accusing them of "wasting talent" on social media.

Yeah, you have to admit that we're giving ZT the benefit of the doubt here.  

The players are all-in on ZT!  
Dunlap isn't all-in on him.
Well, he's a d-bag...he doesn't count.


Everyone who isn't a d-bag who is complaining about ZT and therefore doesn't count because he hates football LOVES ZT!  There.