(07-02-2021, 03:42 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The elite level QB that was going to elevate the play of everyone around him and make the whole team better simply by drafting him didn't have enough high quality weapons that could get separation around him to succeed 

hate this argument. Loathe it.

Im not saying this is what YOU think, because I dont know.

but if anyone thinks,

more weapons with a bad o-line 

is better than

limited weapons with a good o-line 

you're just flat out wrong.

(07-02-2021, 03:54 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: hate this argument. Loathe it.

Im not saying this is what YOU think, because I dont know.

but if anyone thinks,

more weapons with a bad o-line 

is better than

limited weapons with a good o-line 

you're just flat out wrong.

I was going for sarcasm.... I may have added it too late the ninja and the from what I've read around here part.

(07-02-2021, 03:49 PM)Whatever Wrote: Russell Wilson took the third most sacks in the league last year.  The Seahawks still made the playoffs.  KC lost a penciled n starter to opt out and 2 more to injury early and still won the AFC with a crappy OL.  Not to mention all the teams that win with middle of the road lines every year.

Difference is Rush Offense Consistency. The Bengals Offensive Line was bad in pass protection and run blocking which also limited the playbook. With the addition of Frank Pollack hopefully that will stabilize the run game like he did with thr Bengals in 2018 with a very similar caliber offensive line.

I agree though you don't need a top 5 offensive line to be a great offense you can survive with a middle of the road pack. The Bengals have also been missing playmakers on Offense which you see on great teams. Hopefully Ja'Marr Chase and 2nd year Tee Higgins might just what the doctor ordered. 

(07-02-2021, 03:41 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: how about this

maybe except for 2018,

the bengals offensive line has been the team's main weak spot since 2016


aaaand it's still currently the main weak spot

You realize we were dead last in sacks last year, right?

(07-02-2021, 03:59 PM)Whatever Wrote: You realize we were dead last in sacks last year, right?

you realize Burrow was throwing 50 times a game

due to the offense not being able to run the ball

and our qb shredded his knee from getting sacked

, right?

(07-02-2021, 03:52 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Well I guess with a crap offensive line, a coach has to know they have a crappy OL. 

I remember many times last season Zac saying "we're happy with what we have up front" .

Maybe he just doesn't know how to call a game w/ a crappy OL and OC in Seattle and KC do. 

That would be correct.

Wilson took a ton of sacks in Seattle from dancing around and holding the ball and trying too do too much, same way pig used to get sacked in pitt. Their lines would never be called bad, Ben just held on a long time waiting for the big play and doing multiple pump fakes.

Other teams with bad OLs that have success do so by not running empty set after empty set. It's absolute stupidity to look at an OL group and go, these guys aren't that good, but hey we can run it empty set and the young QB will be fine. KC has a running game, and used a lot of quick throws, jet sweeps and kept the defense honest. Smart play calling as their OL started to crumble. It's also bush league for some posters around here to use them as the reason you can win with a bad OL when you look at their own belief on the matter. What did KC did this off-season when strapped for cash against the cap? Found ways to still sign OL improvements.

When you line up 5 wide and in shotgun versus T.J. Twatt, and Myles Garrett, and Bosa, and etc, etc... it ends poorly. A good coach wouldn't do that... so, think it is safe to say Taylor isn't a good play caller or just isn't a good talent evaluator. Because he either believed the line last year would hold up or he didn't understand how to help them.

(07-02-2021, 03:57 PM)Synric Wrote: Difference is Rush Offense Consistency. The Bengals Offensive Line was bad in pass protection and run blocking which also limited the playbook. With the addition of Frank Pollack hopefully that will stabilize the run game like he did with thr Bengals in 2018 with a very similar caliber offensive line.

I agree though you don't need a top 5 offensive line to be a great offense you can survive with a middle of the road pack. The Bengals have also been missing playmakers on Offense which you see on great teams. Hopefully Ja'Marr Chase and 2nd year Tee Higgins might just what the doctor ordered. 

It's very difficult to evaluate rushing stats when a broken down Giovanni Bernard was our feature back much of the year.  That limits your game plan as much or more than the blocking.  Both Perrine and Williams were doing better when they started getting some opportunities late in the year.

(07-02-2021, 04:03 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: you realize Burrow was throwing 50 times a game

due to the offense not being able to run the ball

and our qb shredded his knee from getting sacked

, right?

You realize Burrow only threw 50+ times once, right?  He only threw 40+ times in 4 games.

You also realize our feature back was out most of the year and we had a has been for a back up?

(07-02-2021, 03:54 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: hate this argument. Loathe it.

Im not saying this is what YOU think, because I dont know.

but if anyone thinks,

more weapons with a bad o-line 

is better than

limited weapons with a good o-line 

you're just flat out wrong.

Analytics actually indicates that elite weapons with an average OL wins more games than an elite OL with average weapons.  

(07-02-2021, 04:03 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: you realize Burrow was throwing 50 times a game

due to the offense not being able to run the ball

and our qb shredded his knee from getting sacked

, right?

Offensive line

Rushing yards..................24th

Sacks allowed..................27th

Defensive line

Rushing yards allowed......29th

Sacks..............................32nd


If we can improve our defense then Burrow won't have to be throwing every down in order to win games 45-42.

(07-02-2021, 04:25 PM)Whatever Wrote: Analytics actually indicates that elite weapons with an average OL wins more games than an elite OL with average weapons.  

I don't know how analytics can show this when it is almost impossible to separate what amount of production is due to blocking and what amount of production is due to the skill players.

For example, if a RB gains 1500 yards and averages 5.0 per carry how much is due to good blocking and how much is due to the RB's skills?

(07-02-2021, 04:25 PM)Whatever Wrote: Analytics actually indicates that elite weapons with an average OL wins more games than an elite OL with average weapons.  

*cough* bullshit *cough*

(07-02-2021, 04:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Offensive line

Rushing yards..................24th

Sacks allowed..................27th

Defensive line

Rushing yards allowed......29th

Sacks..............................32nd


If we can improve our defense then Burrow won't have to be throwing every down in order to win games 45-42.

if cincy can run the ball, then maybe the offense can eat up some clock, and Burrow wont have to throw it practically every down

(07-02-2021, 04:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know how analytics can show this when it is almost impossible to separate what amount of production is due to blocking and what amount of production is due to the skill players.

For example, if a RB gains 1500 yards and averages 5.0 per carry how much is due to good blocking and how much is due to the RB's skills?

There are several articles and podcasts that can explain how things like Wins Above Replacement can be calculated better than I can.  

(07-02-2021, 04:40 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: *cough* bullshit *cough*

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020-offensive-line-rankings


Feel free to educate yourself ^ It's not just 1 factor that protects a QB. There are MANY. Just looking at the O line is too basic. Look at the list of top O lines vs the teams in the middle.

Fun fact, if the season started right now, the Bengals starting 5 O line would have given up 6 sacks in 2020 (and that is NOT including Carman as a starter). WTF is there to be bitching about?

(07-02-2021, 05:46 PM)PDub80 Wrote: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020-offensive-line-rankings


Feel free to educate yourself ^ It's not just 1 factor that protects a QB. There are MANY. Just looking at the O line is too basic. Look at the list of top O lines vs the teams in the middle.

Fun fact, if the season started right now, the Bengals starting 5 O line would have given up 6 sacks in 2020 (and that is NOT including Carman as a starter). WTF is there to be bitching about?

So having a top 10 OL is a good indicator of success is what that list shows

1) Browns - Playoffs
2) Packers - Playoffs
3) Rams - Playoffs
4) Patriots - Cam Newton factor
5) Tamp Bay - Playoffs Super Bowl Champion
6) Washington - Playoffs
7) Indy - Playoffs
8) Saints - Playoffs
9) 49ers - No QB
10) Bills - Playoffs
11) Chiefs - Super Bowl loser.

If anything that list shows you that an OL is more important then anything outside of a QB as the two teams with top lines that didn't go to the playoffs had a shit show at QB.

Also, people keep talking about sacks allowed. It isn't just the magical "sack" number that counts. How many times was Burrow hit as he threw and incomplete pass? Not a sack, but a still a pressure and a hit allowed. Just because Burrow threw it away as he got smoked to avoid a sack doesn't mean the line is good.

(07-02-2021, 11:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Tobin has a history of building a roster that consistently made the playoffs.  Taylor has a history of absolutely sucking as both a coordinator and head coach.

Our drafts were crappy for a few years but everyone seems pleased with the free agent and draft moves the last two years.

What has duke done lately? Also who hired Taylor?

(07-02-2021, 05:58 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So having a top 10 OL is a good indicator of success is what that list shows

1) Browns - Playoffs
2) Packers - Playoffs
3) Rams - Playoffs
4) Patriots - Cam Newton factor
5) Tamp Bay - Playoffs Super Bowl Champion
6) Washington - Playoffs
7) Indy - Playoffs
8) Saints - Playoffs
9) 49ers - No QB
10) Bills - Playoffs
11) Chiefs - Super Bowl loser.

If anything that list shows you that an OL is more important then anything outside of a QB as the two teams with top lines that didn't go to the playoffs had a shit show at QB.

Also, people keep talking about sacks allowed. It isn't just the magical "sack" number that counts. How many times was Burrow hit as he threw and incomplete pass? Not a sack, but a still a pressure and a hit allowed. Just because Burrow threw it away as he got smoked to avoid a sack doesn't mean the line is good.

Those teams also had excellent weapons as well, correct? That's my basic point. It takes a complete team, but an avg line can make the playoffs and advance just fine. BTW.... excusing QB play isn't reasonable... unless you'll excuse the QB play for the Bengals games 10.5-16? No? Ok, then... let's skip the added commentary and just look at the rankings unless there's some sort of super exceptional note to make. For example: QB1 gets massacred and the team plays half their games without him - and the backup sucks. Then, perhaps a note is relevant for a higher ranking O line.


Let's also look further down the 2020 list, because that matters as well....

14) PLAYOFFS
15) PLAYOFFS
16) PLAYOFFS
17) PLAYOFFS
20) PLAYOFFS

To me, this says that an avg O line can get the Bengals to the playoffs. That's not an unfair statement, right?

2019 is also an interesting picture to look at...

2019 NFL Offensive Line Rankings https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season

2019 playoff team rankings.....

1) PLAYOFFS
2) PLAYOFFS
3) PLAYOFFS
4) PLAYOFFS
5) PLAYOFFS
10) PLAYOFFS


And then...

16) PLAYOFFS

20) PLAYOFFS

25) PLAYOFFS

27) PLAYOFFS
29) PLAYOFFS

31) PLAYOFFS


These are interesting lists to plod through. Both sides of the coin can be correct.

Quote:There's multiple ways to build a great team.  You don't have to have a great or even good OL to win anymore.  

Absolutely!!..For example, if all 31 other teams absolutely suck even more than you your odds of winning go way up! See how easy that is?

(07-02-2021, 03:59 PM)Whatever Wrote: You realize we were dead last in sacks last year, right?

Run blocking was historically bad.