(07-07-2021, 07:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I have to give the other Toast props here.  Fred can pull numbers like nobody's business.  These stats just murdered the argument it was up against. 

We really didn’t need Fred’s stats to know that what pdub is saying is wrong. Really wrong

And he should feel bad

(07-07-2021, 01:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I did. The Pats deserve an asterisk next to each of their SBs. Not for Brady's balls or video taping other teams (I would have killed for Marvin to have been that inventive and driven to win), but for getting to beat up on the worst division in football over the last 20+ years and virtually being assured of home field advantage and a first round bye every season.

Ida know...we've had the expansion Browns to kick around (in theory) for two decades.  Also, the Patriots have 30 wins in the playoffs since 2000 so they clearly know how to beat teams that aren't the Jets/Dolphins/Bills.

EDIT - I see this has been addressed by you and other posters.  At any rate, hopefully the Browns go back to being the same old Browns and the Steelers and Ravens finally take that "step back" we've been predicting they'd take since 2010 so we can make the playoffs by default every year and win 30 playoff games and 6 SBs.

(07-07-2021, 11:10 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Did he say that?  Why put words into someone's mouth? 

He clearly said that it would take a heckuva jump in play to break into the top 10.  That's entirely different than saying it can't happen.

I asked if he thought he couldn't make that leap and you get all butt hurt? You're pathetic.

(07-07-2021, 12:03 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: God I wish I had this irrational optimism that some of this board has

Yeah, maybe we should all be whiney lil kids...

(07-07-2021, 12:22 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Never said it couldn't.. simply said it would be a hell of a jump from 26th to top 10. 

That type of jump certainly can't be common.

Thank you, that's all I asked. Yes it would be a huge jump, but I think he can be better than where he is ranked.

(07-07-2021, 09:24 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Yeah, maybe we should all be whiney lil kids...

nice strawman

(07-07-2021, 01:08 AM)Whatever Wrote: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-tackle-rankings-2021-nfl-season

Jonah is ranked 24th in PFF's 2021 T rankings and that includes both right and left tackles.

Cool

In this PFF ranking from the ESPN article he gets a 70.1 that is only higher than 5 other LT's.


Here, I'll list all the LT's for you.


Brady Christensen (95.9**) Panthers
Christian Darrisaw (95.6**) Vikings
Teven Jenkins (92.0**) Bears
Trent Williams (91.9) 49ers
David Bakhtiari (91.8) Packers
Garett Bolles (90.6) Broncos
Rashawn Slater (90.0***) Chargers
D.J. Humphries (88.3) Cardinals
Duane Brown (87.8) Seahawks
Andrew Whitworth (86.8) Rams
Terron Armstead (84.9) Saints
Isaiah Wynn (82.6) Patriots
Taylor Decker (82.0) Lions
Dion Dawkins (80.6) Bills
Taylor Lewan (80.2*) Titans
Eric Fisher (80.1) Colts
Ronnie Stanley (79.9) Ravens
Orlando Brown Jr. (77.8) Chiefs
Tyron Smith (76.6*) Cowboys
Jake Matthews (75.5) Falcons
Laremy Tunsil (75.4) Titans
Charles Leno Jr. (74.9) The Football Team
Mekhi Becton (74.4) Jets
Kolton Miller (72.9) Raiders
Donovan Smith (72.8) Bucs
Jordan Mailata (70.3) Eagles
Jonah Williams (70.1) Bengals
Jedrick Wills Jr. (62.6) Browns
Andrew Thomas (62.4) Giants
Cam Robinson (61.7) Jaguars
Chukwuma Okorafor (57.4) Steelers
Austin Jackson (52.3) Dolphins


So, a different article with a different author ranked players differently... not a surprise. This thread is specifically about the rankings from an article that has all the numbers listed and how they were formulated broken down.

The article you quoted on PFF is another guy's opinion, his view on who will be best off trends in a database. I believe there was already a thread on this very board about that exact article.

(07-07-2021, 11:35 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Cool

In this PFF ranking from the ESPN article he gets a 70.1 that is only higher than 5 other LT's.


Here, I'll list all the LT's for you.


Brady Christensen (95.9**) Panthers
Christian Darrisaw (95.6**) Vikings
Teven Jenkins (92.0**) Bears
Trent Williams (91.9) 49ers
David Bakhtiari (91.8) Packers
Garett Bolles (90.6) Broncos
Rashawn Slater (90.0***) Chargers
D.J. Humphries (88.3) Cardinals
Duane Brown (87.8) Seahawks
Andrew Whitworth (86.8) Rams
Terron Armstead (84.9) Saints
Isaiah Wynn (82.6) Patriots
Taylor Decker (82.0) Lions
Dion Dawkins (80.6) Bills
Taylor Lewan (80.2*) Titans
Eric Fisher (80.1) Colts
Orlando Brown Jr. (77.8) Chiefs
Tyron Smith (76.6*) Cowboys
Jake Matthews (75.5) Falcons
Laremy Tunsil (75.4) Titans
Charles Leno Jr. (74.9) The Football Team
Mekhi Becton (74.4) Jets
Kolton Miller (72.9) Raiders
Donovan Smith (72.8) Bucs
Nick Boyle (70.6) Ravens
Jordan Mailata (70.3) Eagles
Jonah Williams (70.1) Bengals
Jedrick Wills Jr. (62.6) Browns
Andrew Thomas (62.4) Giants
Cam Robinson (61.7) Jaguars
Chukwuma Okorafor (57.4) Steelers
Austin Jackson (52.3) Dolphins


So, a different article with a different author ranked players differently... not a surprise. This thread is specifically about the rankings from an article that has all the numbers listed and how they were formulated broken down.

The article you quoted on PFF is another guy's opinion, his view on who will be best off trends in a database. I believe there was already a thread on this very board about that exact article.

The worship of PFF cracks me up.

How do guys who played against college kids last year have a higher rating than Williamson?

And when did the Ravens move Nick Boyle from TE to LT?

(07-07-2021, 09:36 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: nice strawman

1.  You don't know what a strawman argument is.

2.  You are calling a fan "irrational" because he thinks Jonah Williams has a good chance to be a better left tackle than a bunch of guys who have never played a snap in the NFL and another guy who plays TE for the Ravens.

(07-08-2021, 12:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  You don't know what a strawman argument is.

2.  You are calling a fan "irrational" because he thinks Jonah Williams has a good chance to be a better left tackle than a bunch of guys who have never played a snap in the NFL and another guy who plays TE for the Ravens.

He’s misrepresenting my argument, and calls me a whiney baby to throw my points to the side

It’s very unlikely that jonah becomes one of the best LT’s in the league next year.

Do I think he can do it eventually? Sure. But next season? No. Guarantee he won’t

(07-08-2021, 01:22 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: He’s misrepresenting my argument, 

You never made an argument.

You just said it was "irrational" to believe that Jonah Williams will be a top 10 LT this year.  There has already been a PFF article posted here that has Jonah ranked as the 18th best LT.

Considering most NFL players make their biggest improvements after the first year they play I see nothing "irrational" about projecting Jonah to be a top 10 LT this year.

(07-08-2021, 01:30 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You never made an argument.

You just said it was "irrational" to believe that Jonah Williams will be a top 10 LT this year.

Saying it’s an irrational statement doesn’t mean that the person who said it is being whiny, or is a whiny little kid

This is stupid. Let’s stop arguing about this specific topic

(07-08-2021, 01:32 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Saying it’s an irrational statement doesn’t mean that the person who said it is being whiny, or is a whiny little kid

But it is clearly an insult.

Don't hand them out if you can't take them back.

(07-08-2021, 01:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But it is clearly an insult.

Don't hand them out if you can't take them back.

Yea well...

Drop dead, fred

(07-06-2021, 09:11 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I disagree, we have been turning over the roster, called a rebuild, I'm not dumping on all the coaches, sure we could have performed better but , this  is ZTs team now, very few left pre 2 years ago, we have one of the youngest teams I read no surprise to our ranking but this is the year to actually start judging more of our roster.

The coaching is horrible when it was hired 2 yrs ago, still horrible today.  The coaches will be piggy backing the talented but lost and confused players. 

I hope the players dont burn out with dissatisfaction.

(07-07-2021, 01:49 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Whatever you say, boss

(07-07-2021, 03:32 PM)samhain Wrote: That's a really bad take on the Pats success in their dynasty years.  They were indeed dominant in a bad division, but they were also 134-44 vs non divisional opponents from 01-2019.  They weren't just feasting vs inferior teams, either.  They went 24-14 vs eventual division winners.  They almost always had to play the AFC's first place teams from the previous year.  

There's no way to look at their wins and who they were against and say that they were anything but dominant over most of that stretch.  They beat the Steelers, probably the next most consistent franchise in the conference something like 12 out of 16 times over that stretch (I particularly enjoyed that).  They were 9-4 vs the Ravens over the same period of time.  Denver probably fared best vs them winning 10 of 19.  

(07-07-2021, 04:44 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I wasn't actually being serious. However....

Their division was garbage and it absolutely helped them. That has to be the worst division in football over the last 20 years. Hell, none of them even had a long term franchise QB over that time frame. Tom Brady saw an actual franchise QB maybe twice a season. So, while I applaud the Pats for being a dynasty, I cannot help but think there are other things that were likely to happen if the Pats played in the AFCN, for example, over the last 20 years. Or the NFCE or NFCN. Just from a health standpoint, I don't see how Brady plays virtually untouched for 20 some years. Nearly half his schedule was against the 3 worst teams in the NFL... for 20 years.

It would make a fun experiment to take a look at the playoff brackets the Patriots have been in and see their path and how many franchise QBs he actually faced in the playoffs and what his record was against them and then look at how many teams he played who had an OK or journeyman QB at the helm and what he did against those guys. Like, was there a consistent path that he had where he only needed to beat 1 good QB to make the Superbowl? Or, did he maybe face several in the brackets and beat them? Or none? And what were the outcomes?

(07-07-2021, 07:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually Brady played pretty much as many tough games in the regular season as any other QB because EVERY year they had to play EVERY AFC division Champion plus one NFC Division champion.

In the 19 year New England dynasty ('01-'19) the Pats played 99 regular season games against playoff teams while the second best team in the AFC (Steelers) played just 8 more (107) and the best team in the NFC (Packers) played 6 more (105).

But what is really shocking is how dominate the Pats were against these playoff teams during the regular season. The Pats outscored playoff teams by 568 points during the regular season while winning .636% of those games.  The second best team against playoff opponents (Stealers) had a negative point differential (-32) and a losing record (.453%).  The Pats were 17 games OVER .500 against playoff teams while the second best team was 10 games UNDER .500.

In the post season the Pats had TWICE as many wins (30) as the second best team over the period (Stealers 15).  No other team was within 100 points of the Pats postseason winning % (.732), and the Pats postseason point differential (+261) is almost 4 times greater than the second best team (Seattle +69).

(07-07-2021, 07:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I have to give the other Toast props here.  Fred can pull numbers like nobody's business.  These stats just murdered the argument it was up against. 

(07-07-2021, 08:17 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: We really didn’t need Fred’s stats to know that what pdub is saying is wrong. Really wrong

And he should feel bad

(07-07-2021, 08:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ida know...we've had the expansion Browns to kick around (in theory) for two decades.  Also, the Patriots have 30 wins in the playoffs since 2000 so they clearly know how to beat teams that aren't the Jets/Dolphins/Bills.

EDIT - I see this has been addressed by you and other posters.  At any rate, hopefully the Browns go back to being the same old Browns and the Steelers and Ravens finally take that "step back" we've been predicting they'd take since 2010 so we can make the playoffs by default every year and win 30 playoff games and 6 SBs.

Dear everyone....

1st, please note where I said I wasn't being serious (bolded in my reply above).

After that, I pondered aloud about the rest and said it would be interesting to research. To that point...

Great data, Fred. I appreciate you furthering discussion and providing all of that. It got me looking up stuff as well. Even jokingly, I couldn't have been more off. When you remove the Pats, the AFCE teams absolutely were horrific... But it clearly didn't matter as far as the Patriots are concerned when you review all of the available data.

If anyone wants to look into it further, this site provided a ton of data and breakdowns in easy to follow sections. Fascinating and well put together info....  https://patriotsdynasty.info/blog/2019/01-02/myth-easy-afc-east-definitive-guide?amp



BTW, I have no hatred towards Tom Brady. I've been building a sports card & comics collectibles business the last 2 years as a second business and TB12 has made us quite the penny with some killer cards. In PSA graded Brady's alone we've moved nearly $22,000 since the start of the 2020 season. He's the Michael Jordan of football. If the Bengals can't win it all, I am all about TB12 doing well as we have some more pieces in inventory and coming back from PSA early season that we'll kill it with.

Fun Fact and 100% true based on sales data we collect and research... NO ONE collects or spends big money on anything Steelers. NO ONE. Not even Steelers fans. They are the cheapest, most casual fan base when it comes to anything sentimental or collectible. If you asked me what team's stuff was worth the least over the last 40 years.... STEELERS would be up there for consideration. The card market HATES them when it comes to value and liquidity. Not only that, but Steelers fans are legitimately CLUELESS on what to invest in. It's really weird when we meet them at card shows and they talk to us about what their buys, sells, flips, or holds are. They value the goofiest things in players and I'm always shaking my head when they walk away.

Even the QB gets no hobby push, which is super weird. Roethlisberger is genuinely disliked and not collected or invested in across the market, save for a handful of sales.

(07-08-2021, 09:23 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: The coaching is horrible when it was hired 2 yrs ago, still horrible today.  The coaches will be piggy backing the talented but lost and confused players. 

I hope the players dont burn out with dissatisfaction.

I Disagree. The whole point of the ESPN roster rating is the players aren't all that talented.

I will say the players have not been that talented on this team in years. 

The roster was loaded with talented players when team started 8-0 in 2015.  Then Mike Brown let Marvin Jones, Sanu, Zeitler, Whitworth go. Burfict fizzled out. No more Hall or Nelson in the secondary.  Maualuga's career here ended also.  Eifert never came back from injuries. Awful 1st round draft picks under Marvin and Tobin.  Bengals were rated the worst talent at O Line going into 2017, and it has stayed that way.  Draft picks and Blockers from other teams never panned out.  The talent level at O Line just awful since Mike Brown went Cheap in 2017.  Then the talent level on defense went downhill.  Dunlap and Atkins had injuries and their era here was ending. Then AJ Green went down hill with injuries, and not very good last few years.  

So I completely disagree that Taylor is horrible and the players are talented, as you said.  The players on this team have not been all that talented since team started going downhill after 2015. The window of opportunity closed on the team of Dalton, Green, Atkins, Dunlap of 2010's decade. By Marvin's last year, this team was just awful. This team needed a complete rebuild of players after Marvin was fired, The players were not talented and Coach Taylor came in finding Marvin had left the cupboard bare.  In Marvins last years the offense set NFL record lows and had no blocking. The last year the defense was so bad that the D coach fired during season, Marvin took over as D Coach and Hue Jackson who was awful and fired at Cleveland was still considered good enough to help run Bengals as Marvin took over defense, and as expected, the team got even worse those last weeks of Marvin and Hue.  Add in that just about all the top draft picks under Marvin and Tobin lately had been Flops.  Many coaches in NFL refused to work for Mike Brown and replacing Marvin was not a job coaches wanted. Coming to WKRP in Cincinnati to work for Mike Brown was refused by many coaches in NFL as they considered it a demotion, not a promotion. 

So the Bengals lacked talented players when Zac Taylor hired to do a complete rebuild. Now a complete rebuild can not be done in one season. Nor can it be done in two seasons and covid forcing no preseason greatly hurt the rebuild in second season.  So here we are going into rebuild season three. All of the Marvin and Tobin top picks that didn't pan out are gone, except for Price whos contract is running out. There are very few players left from Marvin and Hue getting fired, and that's a good thing. Those players were awful. 

So now there is a whole new team of players, for the most part. I think they have had some good drafts under Taylor, much better than Marvin's last years. I like the batch of new talent brought in this off season via Free Agency and The Draft.  I can see why ESPN says Bengals players talent level is near bottom of NFL, because since 2017 it has been.  Still, the Marvin players have been weeded out for the most part. After 3 Drafts Taylor is starting to collect the players he wants.  

It is far too easy to blame Taylor for not turning around this stinking lousy franchise in 2 seasons. Yes, Taylor could have been fired after last season, but few coaches would have wanted the WKRP in Cincinnati job working for Mike Brown, as always. Firing the coach would not instantly make the players talented.  ESPN says the players are NOT talented.  I have been a Bengals Fan since 1968, and I am excited to see how Training Camp and Preseason goes, there was no Preseason last year and this team needs some warm up games.  IF they can coach up the blocking to protect Joe Burrow, this team can become very exciting. I like some of the plays Taylor uses, but without blocking no playbook works.  

I don't know what other peoples expectations of a total rebuild were, but Paul Brown said it best in 1968, " Don't expect this team to be competitive for a few years ".  That was my expectations of total rebuild after Marvin and the team in such bad shape.  This was like an expansion team build or rebuild. I did not expect wins in 2019 and covid 2020 without a preseason was a kick in the pants. I hated to see Burrow take the field with this awful O Line having no preseason warm up games, and I feared Top Pick Burrow would get injured bad. So here we are in 2021 and I'm getting excited about training camp and preseason.  I think coach Taylor can coach these players up.  They all need their talent level coached up. Mostly all these new players need to come together as a TEAM.  The blocking must improve. The Focus must be on THE TEAM, THE TEAM, THE TEAM.  Always THE TEAM. This is where having preseason warm up games again is huge. No team in the NFL needs warm up games more than the Rebuilding Bengals. 

I think an 8-8 season would be a huge step forward for this new young team being put together. I do not agree with you yet that Coach Taylor is lousy.  ESPN does not agree with you that the players are talented.  I am excited about the 3rd year coach and the new players brought in the last 3 years. If they can build a good team around Joe Burrow, this could be a dynasty team of the 2020's decade. Blocking and Tackling, there must be Blocking and Tackling, something we didn't have in Marvin's last years, but hopefully this Rebuild kicks in and Blocks and Tackles.  If this team Blocks and Tackles, I raise my hopes from 8-8 to Play-Off Wins.  I'm very excited to see how hard this team works and progresses in training camp and preseason.  For all anybody is talking about is how teams look like on paper, except the game is not played on paper or on a computer. It is played on the gridiron turf of Hard Tackle Football of Blocking and Tackling.   So I'm Excited to see Taylor and the 3 years of New Players hit the field and start smashing pads into each other. Bring on the warm up games to get ready for regular season. 

So I disagree with your view Taylor is lousy and the players are great.  I disagree completely.  I say the jury is out, and nobody knows what this team can or can't do.  If they get out there in training camp and bust their butts and turn these new coaches and players into A TEAM, The Bengals could become a powerhouse dynasty team in the 2020's decade, and THAT would be Exciting to see develop. 

(07-08-2021, 11:32 AM)kevin Wrote: I Disagree. The whole point of the ESPN roster rating is the players aren't all that talented.

I will say the players have not been that talented on this team in years. 

The roster was loaded with talented players when team started 8-0 in 2015.  Then Mike Brown let Marvin Jones, Sanu, Zeitler, Whitworth go. Burfict fizzled out. No more Hall or Nelson in the secondary.  Maualuga's career here ended also.  Eifert never came back from injuries. Awful 1st round draft picks under Marvin and Tobin.  Bengals were rated the worst talent at O Line going into 2017, and it has stayed that way.  Draft picks and Blockers from other teams never panned out.  The talent level at O Line just awful since Mike Brown went Cheap in 2017.  Then the talent level on defense went downhill.  Dunlap and Atkins had injuries and their era here was ending. Then AJ Green went down hill with injuries, and not very good last few years.  

So I completely disagree that Taylor is horrible and the players are talented, as you said.  The players on this team have not been all that talented since team started going downhill after 2015. The window of opportunity closed on the team of Dalton, Green, Atkins, Dunlap of 2010's decade. By Marvin's last year, this team was just awful. This team needed a complete rebuild of players after Marvin was fired, The players were not talented and Coach Taylor came in finding Marvin had left the cupboard bare.  In Marvins last years the offense set NFL record lows and had no blocking. The last year the defense was so bad that the D coach fired during season, Marvin took over as D Coach and Hue Jackson who was awful and fired at Cleveland was still considered good enough to help run Bengals as Marvin took over defense, and as expected, the team got even worse those last weeks of Marvin and Hue.  Add in that just about all the top draft picks under Marvin and Tobin lately had been Flops.  Many coaches in NFL refused to work for Mike Brown and replacing Marvin was not a job coaches wanted. Coming to WKRP in Cincinnati to work for Mike Brown was refused by many coaches in NFL as they considered it a demotion, not a promotion. 

So the Bengals lacked talented players when Zac Taylor hired to do a complete rebuild. Now a complete rebuild can not be done in one season. Nor can it be done in two seasons and covid forcing no preseason greatly hurt the rebuild in second season.  So here we are going into rebuild season three. All of the Marvin and Tobin top picks that didn't pan out are gone, except for Price whos contract is running out. There are very few players left from Marvin and Hue getting fired, and that's a good thing. Those players were awful. 

So now there is a whole new team of players, for the most part. I think they have had some good drafts under Taylor, much better than Marvin's last years. I like the batch of new talent brought in this off season via Free Agency and The Draft.  I can see why ESPN says Bengals players talent level is near bottom of NFL, because since 2017 it has been.  Still, the Marvin players have been weeded out for the most part. After 3 Drafts Taylor is starting to collect the players he wants.  

It is far too easy to blame Taylor for not turning around this stinking lousy franchise in 2 seasons. Yes, Taylor could have been fired after last season, but few coaches would have wanted the WKRP in Cincinnati job working for Mike Brown, as always. Firing the coach would not instantly make the players talented.  ESPN says the players are NOT talented.  I have been a Bengals Fan since 1968, and I am excited to see how Training Camp and Preseason goes, there was no Preseason last year and this team needs some warm up games.  IF they can coach up the blocking to protect Joe Burrow, this team can become very exciting. I like some of the plays Taylor uses, but without blocking no playbook works.  

I don't know what other peoples expectations of a total rebuild were, but Paul Brown said it best in 1968, " Don't expect this team to be competitive for a few years ".  That was my expectations of total rebuild after Marvin and the team in such bad shape.  This was like an expansion team build or rebuild. I did not expect wins in 2019 and covid 2020 without a preseason was a kick in the pants. I hated to see Burrow take the field with this awful O Line having no preseason warm up games, and I feared Top Pick Burrow would get injured bad. So here we are in 2021 and I'm getting excited about training camp and preseason.  I think coach Taylor can coach these players up.  They all need their talent level coached up. Mostly all these new players need to come together as a TEAM.  The blocking must improve. The Focus must be on THE TEAM, THE TEAM, THE TEAM.  Always THE TEAM. This is where having preseason warm up games again is huge. No team in the NFL needs warm up games more than the Rebuilding Bengals. 

I think an 8-8 season would be a huge step forward for this new young team being put together. I do not agree with you yet that Coach Taylor is lousy.  ESPN does not agree with you that the players are talented.  I am excited about the 3rd year coach and the new players brought in the last 3 years. If they can build a good team around Joe Burrow, this could be a dynasty team of the 2020's decade. Blocking and Tackling, there must be Blocking and Tackling, something we didn't have in Marvin's last years, but hopefully this Rebuild kicks in and Blocks and Tackles.  If this team Blocks and Tackles, I raise my hopes from 8-8 to Play-Off Wins.  I'm very excited to see how hard this team works and progresses in training camp and preseason.  For all anybody is talking about is how teams look like on paper, except the game is not played on paper or on a computer. It is played on the gridiron turf of Hard Tackle Football of Blocking and Tackling.   So I'm Excited to see Taylor and the 3 years of New Players hit the field and start smashing pads into each other. Bring on the warm up games to get ready for regular season. 

So I disagree with your view Taylor is lousy and the players are great.  I disagree completely.  I say the jury is out, and nobody knows what this team can or can't do.  If they get out there in training camp and bust their butts and turn these new coaches and players into A TEAM, The Bengals could become a powerhouse dynasty team in the 2020's decade, and THAT would be Exciting to see develop. 

Kevin,

Are you lost? You're making way too much sense and presenting way too many logical and emotionally balanced opions to be posting here.

Wow, reading this thread we have some fans that need a TC or preseason game quickly or stronger meds.

We are fans of the same team and have different opinions, that is what makes the board good. If we all thought the same, it would be very boring.

Love you all, never forget we are not the enemy, they reside in Baltimore, Cleveland and Pittsburgh (or the fair weather Steeler fans all over the country).

(07-08-2021, 12:02 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Love you all, never forget we are not the enemy, they reside in Baltimore, Cleveland and Pittsburgh (or the fair weather Steeler fans all over the country).