(07-31-2021, 01:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sorry if my original post was a little mean brother. Seems like you took a lot of crap for your OP. But we are upgraded at the 
starting positions from 2020. My biggest problem is depth as behind the starters we have guys like Jordan and Prince. Even if 
for some odd reason Carman doesn't start at RG game 1 he is great depth and it just means the vets beat him out. 

It was XSF's first season with us and he was under Turner who was a shit OL coach. Spain came in late in the season and had
to learn a new system and the Line got much better as a whole once he got here. Don't give me PFF grades. But this line of...

LT- Jonah Williams (2nd year hoping to stay healthy after having a promising first year) D'Ante Smith
LG - Quinton Spain/XSF/Jordan
C - Trey Hopkins/Trey Hill/Billy Price
RG - Jackson Carman/XSF/Jordan
RT - Riley Reiff/Jackson Carman

Is a lot better than last years. It is all preference and we will see how Pollack, not Pollock the fish coaches over Turner.

We cant make any determination on Carman until he plays some real snaps, just because he was drafted high does not mean he is good. So let's hope he is better than price and jordan.

(07-31-2021, 01:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: In terms of pass protection, the Bengals had two good starters in 2020 - Jonah Williams and Trey Hopkins.
XSF has also been a good pass protector the past two years (197 pass blocking snaps in DAL, 155 in CIN), albeit not a full-time starter.

So they had 2-3 good pass protectors last year.

This year, they replaced Hart (a bad pass protector) with Reiff (a good pass protector).

That's 3-4 good pass protectors, potentially up to 5 if Spain gets back to his TEN form and/or Carman getting some snaps and playing well.

I think they're more likely to struggle in run protection, as most of the OL isn't very good in that area.
They should be league average at least in pass protection though...unless/until they have to resort to backups.

Even though I’m not happy with the way the bengals attacked the offensive line this offseason ur post makes me feel better from a pass pro stand point. Just don’t know why we are so afraid of bringing in some maulers

Actually it sounds like (from Lapham) they may be grooming Carmen to be the utility sixth guy who is first off the bench.

You know what is causing his demise.. Hobson wrote nice things about him..the kiss of death!

(07-31-2021, 02:38 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Spain and XSF are, at worst, average when healthy. They're actually better than that for what the Bengals need them to do. I wouldn't be concerned at all if the season started tomorrow and they were healthy and starting. 

I would say those guys are average at best.

(07-31-2021, 02:34 PM)Synric Wrote: The only factual thing Paul and Jay said about Carman was he was at the end of the postion rep line with Gunnar Vogel. The rest was just them listing possible reasons why...

One reason they left out and makes the most sense is that Jackson Carman was listed on their website at 317lbs in the spring. A weigh in and conditioning test the day before he is now back up to 330lbs. 

Knowing he wasnt ready from the spring might put him behind Spain and XSF but coaches realize he had a lot to learn so he would most likely still be at the front of the rotation... Now a heavy weigh in when that was a pre-draft knock and a poor conditioning test would piss the coaches off enough to say "end of the line fat boy".

This makes sense as the guy had offseason back surgery to correct a herniated disc that he played through the final 4-5 games of his college career.  I know he was not able to participate in his team's Pro Day because of that.  

I think another angle on this story (I already responded) is to take this as less of a slight to Carman, but praise for Spain and XSF.

Take Spain, he is a vocal guy that has an attitude.  He solidified his guard position walking in off the streets, and that coming off COVID-restricted training.  He wasn't dominant, but a clear upgrade from everything we had.  He was also able to cover a game at RT.  Now, with a full offseason to train and condition and a spot on the line, he is working his ass off and trending to becoming a starter again for a team that could have a really good offense.  

XSF was rated fairly well in his limited action last year.  He has to see that there has been a significant upgrade in the competition for one of the guard spots.  He has never made as much money as he has here in Cincy.  If he doesn't stay healthy and be a solid contributor in 2021, he won't likely see the dollars from 2022 or get another contract elsewhere.  So, the guy has shown up hungry, in shape, and is competing the best he can.

Honestly, we should probably be surprised if Carman had a spot over these guys coming off a back injury while these two were healthy and had a normal offseason training program.  

The bottom line:  Carman will be a good addition to this team.  You can bet he will be called upon this season, if not from week 1.  He is learning the new position and will be receiving coaching from a respected technician of an offensive line coach in Pollack.  

(07-31-2021, 02:55 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Last 3 games of the year, XSF gave up a goose egg in pressures. On the year, 5 pressures (including 1 sack) on 155 pass block attempts. That's a pressure every 31 snaps. 

I just brought up XSF's limited production last year later on in this thread.  This is good info, and helps to show why the team had some semblance of a rushing attack down the stretch without Mixon, and without Burrow throwing the ball.  They still had the enigmatic Hart and Jonah went down injured again, but the interior was at the very least, solid.

This is a part of what gives me so much optimism for this season:

Guard play of Spain and XSF stabilized the line last year
Reiff at RT
Pollack as coach
Chase as an added weapon giving the Bengals the most lethal trio they have had since Chad, TJ, and Henry (who hardly ever got to play together)
Uzo returning
Pollack over Turner

That is just on the offensive side of the ball.  I realize that one injury can cause quite a ripple on the offensive line, but they are leaps and bounds better overall than last year in that position group, and I look forward to the competition to settle the best 5 on the field. 

And they’re still referencing a player’s sudden uptick in production during the last couple of weeks of the season Lmao

You guys will never learn

(07-31-2021, 03:43 PM)GodFather Wrote: Agree, but here's a question (unrelated to my original post) This is football, there will be injuries and when one or more of those guys goes down (and it will happen) who is there to backup? Price, Jordan, etc. 

And there we are back where we were last year. 

This front office did not do enough this offseason. We got two guys(Reiff, Carman) to address a major problem. Hopkins is coming off an ACL tear and Williams has health issues and never made it through a season. You really feel good that the Bengals did enough to protect the best thing to come to Cincinnati in a very very long time with Joe Burrow?

I certainly do not. 

Depends on if Pollack can coach up the depth to a certain extent. Every year is different and Price played his best under Pollack
when he was somewhat healthy. Jordan is still really young. Hop is healthy from what I just heard and snapping the ball to Joe.

Would be nice to add another OL or two to compete once cuts happen or before.

I am not as certain as you are that they didn't do enough to protect Joe Burrow. We will see. Like the additions and most of all...


Frank Pollack.

(07-31-2021, 08:29 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: We cant make any determination on Carman until he plays some real snaps, just because he was drafted high does not mean he is good. So let's hope he is better than price and jordan.

I watched his tape before we drafted Carman, he is good. Just wait and see. He played very well as a LT at Clemson protecting 
Lawrence and his only weakness was speed rushers cause he is more of a mauler than an athlete. Perfect mauling Guard.

Wanted Carman in the 2nd round at 38. We traded back got him and D'Ante Smith and Tyler Shelvin. Thought this might of been
the best draft move we have done in forever.

The only reason Carman is at the bottom of the depth chart is he is a bit overweight and the coaches, namely Pollack want to push
him. It is also early, depth charts mean nothing this time of year. Just because Sewell was the best OL prospect in this class besides
Vera-Tucker in my opinion doesn't mean he is good either until he plays some real snaps.

Carman could very well be the best OL in this entire Draft class and it wouldn't surprise me.

Sewell was the best Tackle in the class. Vera Tucker the best Guard. However the second best Guard prospect was per multiple sources Carman precisely because he showed in College he could handle the big games at that level and was physically built to be a perfect Guard. He'll be out there and mauling by Opening Day - this is Training Camp and everyone is getting snaps regardless of some theoretical depth chart.

I see no wrong in making him EARN his spot as a starter. If XSF and Spain win the jobs in TC then so be it. [emoji2369]

(08-01-2021, 06:41 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: I see no wrong in making him EARN his spot as a starter. If XSF and Spain win the jobs in TC then so be it. [emoji2369]

Right!

(08-01-2021, 06:22 PM)Joelist Wrote: Sewell was the best Tackle in the class. Vera Tucker the best Guard. However the second best Guard prospect was per multiple sources Carman precisely because he showed in College he could handle the big games at that level and was physically built to be a perfect Guard. He'll be out there and mauling by Opening Day - this is Training Camp and everyone is getting snaps regardless of some theoretical depth chart.

Spot on as usual.

(08-01-2021, 06:41 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: I see no wrong in making him EARN his spot as a starter. If XSF and Spain win the jobs in TC then so be it. [emoji2369]

Same.

(08-01-2021, 06:47 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Right!

Right!

I think there has to be some cause for concern if he weighed in at 330 and there's not some extenuating circumstance that caused it. 

Concern, being his work ethic or overall attitude towards his job.

(08-01-2021, 12:21 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: And they’re still referencing a player’s sudden uptick in production during the last couple of weeks of the season  Lmao

You guys will never learn

As opposed to his lack of production when he had a broken ankle???? As soon as XFS got healed and back on the field, he solidified his position. It was a "sudden uptick in production," it was actually being on the field.

Falling
Jackson Carman

“Cue the Tom Petty track. The Bengals said they expected Carman to compete for a starting spot at guard when they picked him in the second round, and they ran him out there with the starters for OTAs. Whether it was the way he played or prepared or retained or whatever, they saw enough that they didn’t like that Carman has been taking third-team snaps (and second) early in camp. Sometimes teams can take that approach to send a message, but this feels like a lot more than that. The Bengals have seen enough to believe entrusting Carman with protecting Burrow isn’t in their best interest just yet. The rookie has a steep climb ahead.”

Taken from the Athletic article today called “Bengals stock report who’s up and who’s down after the first week of camp

I was team sewell, and I'm certainly no front office apologist, but it's a bit early to write the dude's career obituary...

(08-02-2021, 11:24 AM)GodFather Wrote: Falling
Jackson Carman

“Cue the Tom Petty track. The Bengals said they expected Carman to compete for a starting spot at guard when they picked him in the second round, and they ran him out there with the starters for OTAs. Whether it was the way he played or prepared or retained or whatever, they saw enough that they didn’t like that Carman has been taking third-team snaps (and second) early in camp. Sometimes teams can take that approach to send a message, but this feels like a lot more than that. The Bengals have seen enough to believe entrusting Carman with protecting Burrow isn’t in their best interest just yet. The rookie has a steep climb ahead.”

Taken from the Athletic article today called “Bengals stock report who’s up and who’s down after the first week of camp

Definitely not what we want to hear. Plenty of time left in camp to battle for a spot though. I just hope he’s struggling due to the learning curve of jumping to the NFL, and not anything lingering with his back.

https://twitter.com/JayMorrisonATH/status/1422281451127648257

Jackson Carman takes the first snap of 11s today at right guard