Agreed, and I've always found it kinda sad how quickly people turn on players that contributed to a lot of wins. We honestly don't have many former greats that are universally loved.

Glad to see people are participating in the topic and think it's interesting.

Nice discussion folks.

(10-25-2021, 07:52 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Damn that drove me crazy. It seemed the fans cared more than the team did. Dre K laughing after got destroyed on a 3rd and long that one game killed me and he was on my shit list forever after. 

I remember that...

(10-25-2021, 06:18 PM)Cicero Wrote: We groan at the culture change talk but that is exactly what has happened here. The players that embraced it are still here and the ones that didn’t are gone. It bothered me to see certain players laughing it up on the sidelines while getting beaten on the field. This team is very different. Even at t he end of the game yesterday their wasn’t a ton of show boating or stupid poses in the end zone. They acted like they expected the outcome. They have their fun and do their talking on the field. When bad things happen they respond with their play rather than melting down. They are mentally and physically tough. Marvin had some physically tough teams but they never had that mental toughness.

If fans have been paying attention, you could tell that was the type of player they were seeking. It's paid off, look at the improvement in penalties. They have drafted guys that are film junkies, guys from winning programs, high football IQs, then doubled down by getting those types in free agency. I haven't studied it, but I don't believe they've drafted anyone that had character concerns, and possibly not signed any FAs with any baggage. Agreed.

Also agree with the OP. Big picture thinking right there.

(10-25-2021, 06:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Hopefully it's done and the team can get back to winning seasons.
I didn't really have an interest in the Bengals in the 90's as a kid because the team wasn't competitive (I liked hockey and baseball more), and so I didn't really gravitate into football until 2004-2005 with the Marvin Lewis era.
From the time that I really started watching football, the Bengals hadn't had more than a year or two in a row with a losing record.
You could say I'm entitled or spoiled, but this stretch of 5 seasons with a losing record has been really difficult to keep my interest.
Toss in the fact I moved out of state a few years ago, so I couldn't get most games locally televised.

Try being a fan in the 80s, then steamrolling into The Abyss full throttle....

Blackouts, no winning seasons in 15 years....  

(10-25-2021, 09:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agreed, and I've always found it kinda sad how quickly people turn on players that contributed to a lot of wins. We honestly don't have many former greats that are universally loved.

I don't have ANY ill will to any former player myself.....well except for Kimo, maybe.

I'm just gonna call what I see.

(10-25-2021, 07:25 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Playing Geno out of position. 

I've seen people say this a few times now and it's not true. In 2019 Andrew Billings and Josh Tupou were the Nose Tackles. Did Geno get used as a pass rusher from the 1tech sometimes yea but it had been like that his entire career.

I think people saw Geno line up at 0 in a 3 man rush at the end of a half and thought he was playing a ton of NT... he wasnt.

(10-25-2021, 05:13 PM)Stewy Wrote: I'm trying not to be negative or repetitive here, as we have individually spoken about this subject in regard to Geno, WJ3, AJ and Dunlap.   Most of the angst is toward Dunlap and WJ3 and to a lesser extent AJ.  But that's not really what this thread is about.

Regime changes (not just in sports, but any industry) can cause mental and emotional issues.  Especially if the regime has been in place a long long time.  There has been a way of doing things.  It isn't JUST about manning up and being a professional, it can be devastating mentally to have that much change at once.  Especially in the case of a sports team where every one if your bosses could get replaced at the same time.

My parallel is that my 2nd and 3rd lvl bosses both just changed out, which means people making decisions about my performance do not know me at all.  We are a performance based industry so it is stressful to change bosses often (every 3 years in my company), that then have to get to know you and your performance, strengths and needs for improvement.  Luckily in my case, my first level boss has stayed the same AND with the regime change no one is asking me to do my job in a different way.  But it is still stressful.

Now parallel that to the Bengals situation.  You were drafted by a person that is gone, asked to play a particular way and you excelled in that environment.  Now EVERY person who valued you is gone.  You are then asked to play in a different way, that may or may not play to your strengths, but certainly is entirely different.  So much change, not only in environment but in how you are asked to do your job (especially when you have played at a pro-bowl level in that job), can be emotionally and mentally draining.

I'm not making excuses for any of them.  I think it was clear that several of them behaved unprofessionally or like children.  The bottom line is that sometimes, change is good for all.  Carlos just couldn't get beyond the affects of the regime change and he needed to go for his good and the good of the team.  WJ3 was an idiot that became toxic.  AJ may or may not have quit last year.  Geno behaved with professionalism.  

Bottom line as I see it, the regime change is complete, and there are few to none that are left to dwell on the past.  But the emotional and mental cost of the regime change on the players shouldn't be overlooked when compared to their actions.  Some could have just conducted themselves better.

p.s. - Huber doesn't count as leftover from the previous regime because Simmons is still here.  

There are parallels, but huge differences.  When a typical person goes through a regime change at work, a lot of the stress comes from losing their jobs and not being able to feed their families.  The guys we had issues with here had all been making set for life type money for years.

My personal feeling was that the core group had become complacent.  Marvin had been the HC too long and had essentially just kept promoting from within and sticking with the same systems Gruden and Zimmer ran.  Zac and his staff asked them to do different things and a lot of the old guard rebelled.  Marvin himself said that the players got Teryl Austin fired.  Many of them likely felt that by acting out they could get Zac fired.

At the end of the day, they are still professional athletes and they have a responsibility to try their best as long as the checks keep clearing.  I feel a lot of the guys did.  Some didn't, Dunlap and AJ chiefly among them.  They were still great players for the Bengals, but my opinion of them will forever be colored by their poor conduct at the end.  

(10-25-2021, 09:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agreed, and I've always found it kinda sad how quickly people turn on players that contributed to a lot of wins. We honestly don't have many former greats that are universally loved.

It's been 17 years and there are still people bitter towards Corey Dillon. 

Big Willie is probably the most recent player that's universally loved by the fan base. Whit will most likely take that spot once he hangs it up.

(10-26-2021, 12:42 AM)Whatever Wrote: There are parallels, but huge differences.  When a typical person goes through a regime change at work, a lot of the stress comes from losing their jobs and not being able to feed their families.  The guys we had issues with here had all been making set for life type money for years.

My personal feeling was that the core group had become complacent.  Marvin had been the HC too long and had essentially just kept promoting from within and sticking with the same systems Gruden and Zimmer ran.  Zac and his staff asked them to do different things and a lot of the old guard rebelled.  Marvin himself said that the players got Teryl Austin fired.  Many of them likely felt that by acting out they could get Zac fired.

At the end of the day, they are still professional athletes and they have a responsibility to try their best as long as the checks keep clearing.  I feel a lot of the guys did.  Some didn't, Dunlap and AJ chiefly among them.  They were still great players for the Bengals, but my opinion of them will forever be colored by their poor conduct at the end.  

I was specifically referencing the ones left behind.  Obviously job loss, would top the list of stressors, but that isn't what I was talking about.  It was about the those left behind.

And yes I agree, that those here became complacent, which pretty much agrees with what I was saying, so I don't understand this feeling of disagreement your giving me here.

(10-25-2021, 11:39 PM)Wyche Wrote: Try being a fan in the 80s, then steamrolling into The Abyss full throttle....

Blackouts, no winning seasons in 15 years....  

I'm there with you buddy.  Family had season tickets in the 80's.  Probably saw 30-40 games during that time.....then the 90's   *cringe*  made me glad I moved to Texas.

Lots to digest here. And overall, I agree. Was having this conversation yesterday with a colleague.

I liked Marvin Lewis...still do. But, he liked "troubled" personalities (just look at his love of Ray Lewis). Talent out the posterior, but troubled nonetheless....PacMan, Vontaze, Chris Henry, etc. That sometimes lent itself to a certain type of team chemistry, and not always in a good way. I think that's what Carson became upset about. He didn't care for Chad's antics. He just wanted to play football. Forget about the "who can't cover me list". I still remember Palmer ripping the "HOF" sign off of Chad's jacket during the game.

But,, they were all Marvin's guys. That's what he wanted. Marvin got us close. But eventually (moreso towards the last couple of hears he was here), those "personalities" were his undoing. The NFL changed. Marvin didn't. Burfict always said his hits would have been legal 10 years ago. True. But, he wasn't playing in the NFL then. So, you play by the current rules, which he just couldn't/wouldn't do. Burfict and PacMan would be kicked out of every game if they played today. No taunting. No hits above the shoulders. No spearing. Etc. Love it or hate it, that's today's game. You either play by the rules, or find the door.

Chad didn't consider himself a football player. He considered himself an entertainer.

Fast forward to Taylor's tenure so far. Right now, everyone's happy. 6 months ago, everybody wanted to hang him for not drafting Sewell. Now, Zak is considered a genius.

I do believe that Burrow is indeed the leader of this club, on the field, in the clubhouse, in the media. Carson never seemed comfortable in that way. He was a supremely talented QB...moreso than Burrow. Burrow is more of a leader.

You put all the other pieces in place, free agency signings, coaching (remember Frank Pollack was not retained under Zak who brought in Jim Turner instead....disaster) and Taylor looks like the genius the Brown family thought they were getting. Give Zak credit, he got Mike Brown to open up the wallet for the big money free agents (instead of MB looking for bargain, past their prim, players to sign). Zak got MB to ship out draft duds, regardless of how much the team had invested into them (I just saw Cedric Ogbuehi was even cut by Seattle recently).

Marvin liked holding onto his "guys" past their prime. Zak appears to let them go, if he deems them to be less useful to the team.

We're all dancing right now. That includes me. I try to temper that. I hope Burrow does not get hurt again. When Chase starts getting triple teamed, how will he respond. What will Mixon do if Zak goes out and drafts a new RB, probably next season? Will he still be a team player? Or, will he grumble in the locker room? Can Zak keep this "new attitude" intact over the long haul? What happens to the team if Anarumo and/or Callahan leave for the inevitable HC decisions they'll inevitably be interviewed for if thing continue well for the Bengals.

I hope when the inevitable "down stretch" happens (and it will...it happens to every team...Steelers are in the throws of a rebuild, and not in good shape for it).

Still, happy now. I hope to enjoy this for a long time. I like our main players. I hope we continue to get better, and get to the outcome we all have been waiting so long for.

I kinda believe the corny corny tag line of it's a "New-Day"!

Again with the "Zac didn't retain Pollack" narrative. Pollack left because he wanted to go to NY. Period.

(10-26-2021, 12:19 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Again with the "Zac didn't retain Pollack" narrative. Pollack left because he wanted to go to NY. Period.

I heard it both ways.  I heard he wasn't retained and I heard he left on his own accord.  As these things go with the Bengals (was Wyche fired or did he resign?), we'll probably never know.  

Doesn't matter.  While not a strong suit, the OL is still much better than it was under Turner (who was a befuddling hire to begin with).

(10-25-2021, 11:39 PM)Wyche Wrote: Try being a fan in the 80s, then steamrolling into The Abyss full throttle....

Blackouts, no winning seasons in 15 years....  

Fellow '80s fan who experienced the '90s. When I lived in Colorado it was interesting to explain to Broncos fans what a blackout meant. They could not conceptualize such an occurrence. Blackout + Bengals was the norm in the '90s.

Also, Jeff says "Hi" from the '90s.

(10-25-2021, 09:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agreed, and I've always found it kinda sad how quickly people turn on players that contributed to a lot of wins. We honestly don't have many former greats that are universally loved.

A lot of that depends on their behavior as they are going out the door or after they arrive at their new home. You leave, then badmouth the organization or especially the fans, don't expect warm and fuzzy.

(10-25-2021, 11:37 PM)Wyche Wrote: If fans have been paying attention, you could tell that was the type of player they were seeking. It's paid off, look at the improvement in penalties. They have drafted guys that are film junkies, guys from winning programs, high football IQs, then doubled down by getting those types in free agency. I haven't studied it, but I don't believe they've drafted anyone that had character concerns, and possibly not signed any FAs with any baggage. Agreed.

Also agree with the OP. Big picture thinking right there.

Plus we have drafted tons of team Captains and leaders out of college.

I would say at this point Zac Taylor could be a strong candidate for Coach of the Year. Think about the odds you could have gotten for that bet before the season lol.

(10-26-2021, 12:32 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Fellow '80s fan who experienced the '90s. When I lived in Colorado it was interesting to explain to Broncos fans what a blackout meant. They could not conceptualize such an occurrence. Blackout + Bengals was the norm in the '90s.

Also, Jeff says "Hi" from the '90s.

Jeff Query sighting!

(10-26-2021, 01:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Plus we have drafted tons of team Captains and leaders out of college.

Right, exactly what I was alluding to. High character, team players. It's beginning to pay off.

(10-26-2021, 01:54 PM)Synric Wrote: I would say at this point Zac Taylor could be a strong candidate for Coach of the Year. Think about the odds you could have gotten for that bet before the season lol.

Definitely not something I would of predicted especially not on here lol

But it is true, he has to be in the discussion at this point as things are certainly looking like they are turning around in a great way.

Keep it up Zac. Lets destroy the Jets next.