(12-20-2021, 11:03 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: He does, but only with a much stronger supporting cast than what he currently has.  He ain't carrying the team any more.  

The funny thing is, he never really carried them before. He's always needed a strong running game and defense and he was able to augment that to playoffs and championships. Without those things though, even in his best years, he was never enough to carry them to the top. 

(12-20-2021, 02:06 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The funny thing is, he never really carried them before. He's always needed a strong running game and defense and he was able to augment that to playoffs and championships. Without those things though, even in his best years, he was never enough to carry them to the top. 

Disagree. He was a huge factor in all of the playoff games except the SB in 2005 (I think he had a QB rating of over 120 in those games, not to mention,asking a game saving tackle), and he was also huge in the game winning drive in XLIII.

In other words, without him, they don’t make it to XL, and they don’t win XLIII.

(12-20-2021, 03:11 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Disagree. He was a huge factor in all of the playoff games except the SB in 2005 (I think he had a QB rating of over 120 in those games, not to mention,asking a game saving tackle), and he was also huge in the game winning drive in XLIII.  

In other words, without him, they don’t make it to XL, and they don’t win XLIII.

That's what i was implying. He augmented a team that had a strong defense and running game. Without those, he did nothing to ever "carry" the team, as you said "he ain't carrying the team anymore". 

(12-20-2021, 11:03 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: He does, but only with a much stronger supporting cast than what he currently has.  He ain't carrying the team any more.  

1 At this point, it would be a Super Bowl limp, not run.

2. Ben can't even make the simple throws to give a supporting cast the opportunity to carry him to another title.

Honestly I can see Ben returning again next year. This draft sucks for QB's and the latest one I saw has Washington selecting Pickett before the Steelers pick.

So unless your rolling with the notion they land a marquee QB in Free-agency he's either returning or Steelers plan on tanking one of the other

(12-20-2021, 07:46 PM)QueenCity Wrote: Honestly I can see Ben returning again next year.  This draft sucks for QB's and the latest one I saw has Washington selecting Pickett before the Steelers pick.

So unless your rolling with the notion they land a marquee QB in Free-agency he's either returning or Steelers plan on tanking one of the other

He just said that to try and give a shot in the arm to his below average team.

(12-20-2021, 02:06 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The funny thing is, he never really carried them before. He's always needed a strong running game and defense and he was able to augment that to playoffs and championships. Without those things though, even in his best years, he was never enough to carry them to the top. 

Despite my caring less and less by the day for the NFL product I'll give a stab at a response here.  Ben may never have carried the team on his back for a whole SB winning season, but he certainly did so during key stretches.  Much is made of his relatively poor showing during SB XL, which is fair.  What is not fair is ignoring his earth scorching performance that got the team to that game in the first place.  This even omits his season saving tackle on the inexcusable Bettis fumble at the end of the Colts game.  His performance in the game winning drive of SB 43 is nothing short of masterful.  Much is made of Holmes' toe tap catch in the EZ that won the game.  What is routinely ignored is the fact that Holmes completely muffed a far easier TD catch earlier in the drive.  Of course even on the winning TD pass Ben must be given a huge share of the credit for the TD.

Even in today's watered down, garbage, NFL product a successful running game and a competent defense is needed to succeed in almost every circumstance.  Ben has done far more with what he was given than such NFL luminaries as Peyton Manning, a perennial under-performer in the post season.  In fact, he's done far better, with generally lesser tools, than John Elway, whose QB game most closely mirrors his.  It's certainly fair to criticize Ben for his shortcomings, but to claim he's anything other than a HOF QB who has accomplished far more than most NFL QB's will ever dream of is just amateurish homerism, which I know you're far better than to succumb to.  

(12-22-2021, 01:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Despite my caring less and less by the day for the NFL product I'll give a stab at a response here.  Ben may never have carried the team on his back for a whole SB winning season, but he certainly did so during key stretches.  Much is made of his relatively poor showing during SB XL, which is fair.  What is not fair is ignoring his earth scorching performance that got the team to that game in the first place.  This even omits his season saving tackle on the inexcusable Bettis fumble at the end of the Colts game.  His performance in the game winning drive of SB 43 is nothing short of masterful.  Much is made of Holmes' toe tap catch in the EZ that won the game.  What is routinely ignored is the fact that Holmes completely muffed a far easier TD catch earlier in the drive.  Of course even on the winning TD pass Ben must be given a huge share of the credit for the TD.

Even in today's watered down, garbage, NFL product a successful running game and a competent defense is needed to succeed in almost every circumstance.  Ben has done far more with what he was given than such NFL luminaries as Peyton Manning, a perennial under-performer in the post season.  In fact, he's done far better, with generally lesser tools, than John Elway, whose QB game most closely mirrors his.  It's certainly fair to criticize Ben for his shortcomings, but to claim he's anything other than a HOF QB who has accomplished far more than most NFL QB's will ever dream of is just amateurish homerism, which I know you're far better than to succumb to.  

I agree, he was good enough overall with his own play in spurts to win important games and he will eventually end up in the hall, i'm just saying he's never been able to carry a team that didn't have a top defense and a running game that was just plain good or needed to play good in a playoff game. 

JS said "He ain't carrying the team anymore". I'm saying he never did carry them when the defense and running game weren't up to snuff. Just so you don't think i'm talking out my ass, here are the things i'm talking about. This is all from 2005 on. 

Looking at their SB years first:
2005 the defense was 3rd in PA and 4th in YA. The rush offense was ranked 5th in yards. 
In the final 8 games (incl SB) they went 8-0
Defense gave up an average of 11.8 per game
Rush offense averaged 158.3 per game
Ben was 9/5 td/int, in 8 games. 

2008 the defense was 1st in PA and 1st in YA. The rush offense was ranked 23rd in yards. 
In the final 10 games (incl SB) they went 9-1
Defense gave up an average of 14.4 per game
Rush offense averaged 109 per game (meh)
Ben was 10/5 td/int in 10 games. 

2010 the defense was 1st in PA and 2nd in YA. The rush offense was ranked 11th in yards.
In the final 10 games (incl SB) they were 8-2 (lost SB to GB)
Defense gave up an average of 14.4 per game
Rush offense averaged 126.9 per game
Ben was 11/5 td/int in 10 games 

In the 2016 season where they lost the AFCCG:
2016 the defense was 10th in PA and 12th in YA. The rush offense was ranked 14th in yards.
In the final 10 games (incl AFCC) they were 9-1 (lost to NE)
Defense gave up an average of 18.5 per game
Rush offense averaged 134.8 per game
Ben was 12/10 td/int in 10 games 

In years where they fell short of the AFCCG: 
2010 Ben's rating was 77.4 with 2/2 td/int, the offense rushed for 126 yards and the defense gave up 31 points in the playoff loss.
2011 Ben's rating was 75.9 with 1/1 td/int, the offense rushed for 156 yards and the defense gave up 29 points in the playoff loss.
2014 Ben's rating was 79.3 with 1/2 td/int, the offense rushed for 68 yards and the defense gave up 30 points in the playoff loss. 
2015 Ben's rating was 94.3 with 0/0 td/int, the offense rushed for 85 yards and the defense gave up 23 points in the playoff loss. 
2017 Ben's rating was 110.5 with 5/1 td/int, the offense rushed for 83 yards and the defense gave up 45 points in the playoff loss. 
2020 Ben's rating was 85.5 with 4/4 td/int, the offense rushed for 52 yards and the defense gave up 48 points in the playoff loss. 

That's a lot of "not carrying" if you ask me, besides the SB GW drive against Arizona and him doing everything he could against Jax in '17. 

For his career, his playoff stats look like this; 63% comp, 7.7 ypa, 34td/28int, 86.4 rating.

P.S. I added the  at the last second...cause it made me chuckle.

(12-22-2021, 03:15 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I agree, he was good enough overall with his own play in spurts to win important games and he will eventually end up in the hall, i'm just saying he's never been able to carry a team that didn't have a top defense and a running game that was just plain good or needed to play good in a playoff game. 

JS said "He ain't carrying the team anymore". I'm saying he never did carry them when the defense and running game weren't up to snuff. Just so you don't think i'm talking out my ass, here are the things i'm talking about. This is all from 2005 on. 

Looking at their SB years first:
2005 the defense was 3rd in PA and 4th in YA. The rush offense was ranked 5th in yards. 
In the final 8 games (incl SB) they went 8-0
Defense gave up an average of 11.8 per game
Rush offense averaged 158.3 per game
Ben was 9/5 td/int, in 8 games. 

2008 the defense was 1st in PA and 1st in YA. The rush offense was ranked 23rd in yards. 
In the final 10 games (incl SB) they went 9-1
Defense gave up an average of 14.4 per game
Rush offense averaged 109 per game (meh)
Ben was 10/5 td/int in 10 games. 

2010 the defense was 1st in PA and 2nd in YA. The rush offense was ranked 11th in yards.
In the final 10 games (incl SB) they were 8-2 (lost SB to GB)
Defense gave up an average of 14.4 per game
Rush offense averaged 126.9 per game
Ben was 11/5 td/int in 10 games 

In the 2016 season where they lost the AFCCG:
2016 the defense was 10th in PA and 12th in YA. The rush offense was ranked 14th in yards.
In the final 10 games (incl AFCC) they were 9-1 (lost to NE)
Defense gave up an average of 18.5 per game
Rush offense averaged 134.8 per game
Ben was 12/10 td/int in 10 games 

In years where they fell short of the AFCCG: 
2010 Ben's rating was 77.4 with 2/2 td/int, the offense rushed for 126 yards and the defense gave up 31 points in the playoff loss.
2011 Ben's rating was 75.9 with 1/1 td/int, the offense rushed for 156 yards and the defense gave up 29 points in the playoff loss.
2014 Ben's rating was 79.3 with 1/2 td/int, the offense rushed for 68 yards and the defense gave up 30 points in the playoff loss. 
2015 Ben's rating was 94.3 with 0/0 td/int, the offense rushed for 85 yards and the defense gave up 23 points in the playoff loss. 
2017 Ben's rating was 110.5 with 5/1 td/int, the offense rushed for 83 yards and the defense gave up 45 points in the playoff loss. 
2020 Ben's rating was 85.5 with 4/4 td/int, the offense rushed for 52 yards and the defense gave up 48 points in the playoff loss. 

That's a lot of "not carrying" if you ask me, besides the SB GW drive against Arizona and him doing everything he could against Jax in '17. 

For his career, his playoff stats look like this; 63% comp, 7.7 ypa, 34td/28int, 86.4 rating.

P.S. I added the  at the last second...cause it made me chuckle.

This is A LOT of work to make a point. Sheesh. 
Also, in 2008 the rush offense was 27th in YPA. 

(12-22-2021, 05:17 PM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: This is A LOT of work to make a point. Sheesh. 
Also, in 2008 the rush offense was 27th in YPA. 

Ehh. Took me about an hour. I wasn't about to dive deeper, re:YPA, and take even longer. 

(12-22-2021, 05:26 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Ehh. Took me about an hour. I wasn't about to dive deeper, re:YPA, and take even longer. 

That's A LOT of work just to show that Big Ben has never been that good and now the Steelers are heading for the dumpster!

LOVE THE DEDICATION!

(12-22-2021, 10:19 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: That's A LOT of work just to show that Big Ben has never been that good and now the Steelers are heading for the dumpster!

LOVE THE DEDICATION!

No, that is a sign of an unhealthy obsession. And all just to say "I told you so." Which will be meaningless when he's inducted to the HOF (and on the first ballot, I might add). 

I get not liking Big Ben because he plays for a divisional opponent and I think we don't need to explain why people dislike him for his personal life choices; however, I find it silly anyone would think they can construct an argument he's not talented or had a HoF career. Ben has benefitted from the NFL transitioning to a pass-happy & protect-the-QB type of league, but that remains true for all QBs of the era. They can't be faulted for when they played. Sure, he's also benefited by being on good teams but that can be said about many great players. It's silly to negate his accomplishments just because he played with talented coaches and players.

He's top 5 in passing yards, 8th for TDs thrown which also puts him in the exclusive category of QBs throwing for 400+ career TDs, and he's been part of Super Bowl winning teams. There are other reasons one can justify his HoF worthy status and I have no doubt at all he'll be enshrined in Canton.

(12-23-2021, 10:02 AM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: No, that is a sign of an unhealthy obsession. And all just to say "I told you so." Which will be meaningless when he's inducted to the HOF (and on the first ballot, I might add). 

Not a chance in hell. Or Earth.

(12-23-2021, 12:40 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Not a chance in hell. Or Earth.

You don't think? He's a QB playing for a premiere NFL franchise. I think Big Ben easily gets elected during his first year of eligibility. He's a first ballot HoF'er for those voting.

(12-22-2021, 03:15 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I agree, he was good enough overall with his own play in spurts to win important games and he will eventually end up in the hall, i'm just saying he's never been able to carry a team that didn't have a top defense and a running game that was just plain good or needed to play good in a playoff game. 

JS said "He ain't carrying the team anymore". I'm saying he never did carry them when the defense and running game weren't up to snuff. Just so you don't think i'm talking out my ass, here are the things i'm talking about. This is all from 2005 on. 

Looking at their SB years first:
2005 the defense was 3rd in PA and 4th in YA. The rush offense was ranked 5th in yards. 
In the final 8 games (incl SB) they went 8-0
Defense gave up an average of 11.8 per game
Rush offense averaged 158.3 per game
Ben was 9/5 td/int, in 8 games. 

2008 the defense was 1st in PA and 1st in YA. The rush offense was ranked 23rd in yards. 
In the final 10 games (incl SB) they went 9-1
Defense gave up an average of 14.4 per game
Rush offense averaged 109 per game (meh)
Ben was 10/5 td/int in 10 games. 

2010 the defense was 1st in PA and 2nd in YA. The rush offense was ranked 11th in yards.
In the final 10 games (incl SB) they were 8-2 (lost SB to GB)
Defense gave up an average of 14.4 per game
Rush offense averaged 126.9 per game
Ben was 11/5 td/int in 10 games 

In the 2016 season where they lost the AFCCG:
2016 the defense was 10th in PA and 12th in YA. The rush offense was ranked 14th in yards.
In the final 10 games (incl AFCC) they were 9-1 (lost to NE)
Defense gave up an average of 18.5 per game
Rush offense averaged 134.8 per game
Ben was 12/10 td/int in 10 games 

In years where they fell short of the AFCCG: 
2010 Ben's rating was 77.4 with 2/2 td/int, the offense rushed for 126 yards and the defense gave up 31 points in the playoff loss.
2011 Ben's rating was 75.9 with 1/1 td/int, the offense rushed for 156 yards and the defense gave up 29 points in the playoff loss.
2014 Ben's rating was 79.3 with 1/2 td/int, the offense rushed for 68 yards and the defense gave up 30 points in the playoff loss. 
2015 Ben's rating was 94.3 with 0/0 td/int, the offense rushed for 85 yards and the defense gave up 23 points in the playoff loss. 
2017 Ben's rating was 110.5 with 5/1 td/int, the offense rushed for 83 yards and the defense gave up 45 points in the playoff loss. 
2020 Ben's rating was 85.5 with 4/4 td/int, the offense rushed for 52 yards and the defense gave up 48 points in the playoff loss. 

That's a lot of "not carrying" if you ask me, besides the SB GW drive against Arizona and him doing everything he could against Jax in '17. 

For his career, his playoff stats look like this; 63% comp, 7.7 ypa, 34td/28int, 86.4 rating.

P.S. I added the  at the last second...cause it made me chuckle.

I’m not exactly sure what this proves.  I think you’ll find that most SB winning QBs not named Brady had a strong team around them in the years they won, and did less well when their team was weaker. Heck, even Brady had strong support for most of his SB wins.  When it comes to carrying a team to a championship, most historical examples are more situational than seasonal, like Ben’s 2005 performance to get them to the SB and his game-ending drive in 2008 drive to win it. Instances where a QB carried a crappy team through an entire championship season, on the other hand, are exceedingly rare outliers.  

As for the career playoff stats, just about every player sees a downturn in those numbers compared to their regular season stats: even Brady’s playoff rating is 7 points lower than his career rating (and only four points higher than Ben’s, which is roughly the same as their overall difference).  It makes sense, since you don’t get to pad those numbers with bad teams the way you do in the season.  I mean, Brady’s career playoff completion percentage is actually a few tenths of a percentage point LOWER than Ben’s. 

Overall, I think most people in this thread are trying to hold Ben to a standard that only the elite of the elite ever met, and I’ve never argued that he belongs in that tier.  In the bottom half of current HoF members, though?  As you more or less have already said in your opening paragraph here ... Absolutely.  

(12-22-2021, 10:19 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: That's A LOT of work just to show that Big Ben has never been that good and now the Steelers are heading for the dumpster!

LOVE THE DEDICATION!

Read his whole post again. He begins by agreeing that Ben probably does belong in the Hall of Fame (f not on the first ballot).

(12-23-2021, 02:01 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: I’m not exactly sure what this proves.  I think you’ll find that most SB winning QBs not named Brady had a strong team around them in the years they won, and did less well when their team was weaker. Heck, even Brady had strong support for most of his SB wins.  When it comes to carrying a team to a championship, most historical examples are more situational than seasonal, like Ben’s 2005 performance to get them to the SB and his game-ending drive in 2008 drive to win it. Instances where a QB carried a crappy team through an entire championship season, on the other hand, are exceedingly rare outliers.  

As for the career playoff stats, just about every player sees a downturn in those numbers compared to their regular season stats: even Brady’s playoff rating is 7 points lower than his career rating (and only four points higher than Ben’s, which is roughly the same as their overall difference).  It makes sense, since you don’t get to pad those numbers with bad teams the way you do in the season.  I mean, Brady’s career playoff completion percentage is actually a few tenths of a percentage point LOWER than Ben’s. 

Overall, I think most people in this thread are trying to hold Ben to a standard that only the elite of the elite ever met, and I’ve never argued that he belongs in that tier.  In the bottom half of current HoF members, though?  As you more or less have already said in your opening paragraph here ... Absolutely.  

I just like to point out his failures. 

And his ugly face!!!

(12-23-2021, 03:07 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I just like to point out his failures. 

And his ugly face!!!

He's had them for sure, but so have most of the other greats.  

As for his ugly face, well, there was bound to be SOMETHING on which we'd agree.  

(12-23-2021, 03:10 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: He's had them for sure, but so have most of the other greats.  

As for his ugly face, well, there was bound to be SOMETHING on which we'd agree.  

Ben(22games), Brees(18 games), EManning(12 games), Rivers(12 games), Rodgers(21 games), Ryan(10 games), Flacco(15 games), Wilson(16 games), Brady(45 games), PManning(27 games). Ten guys, playoff passing stats for a minimum of ten playoff games. 

Ben ranks:
3rd in games played
2nd in playoff win percentage
3rd most pass attempts
5th most pass completions
5th in completion %
2nd in YPA
3rd in yards
5th in TDs
2nd in INTs (most)
9th in passer rating  (only Philip Rivers has a lower passer rating 85.3 to Ben's 86.4)

Ben
----
22 Games 13-9-0 (69.2%) 469 744 63.04 5757 34 28 86.4

Brees
-----
18 Games 9-9-0 (50.0%) 481 721 66.71 5366 37 15 97.1

E Manning
---------
12 Games 8-4-0 (66.6%) 242 400 60.50 2815 18  9 87.4

Rivers
------
12 Games 5-7-0 (41.6%) 238 401 59.35 2965 16 10 85.3

Rodgers
-------
21 Games 12-9-0 (57.1%) 481 745 64.56 5669 45 13 100.5

Ryan
----
10 Games 4-6-0 (40.0%)  237 351 67.52 2672 20  7 100.8

Flacco
------
15 Games 10-5-0 (66.6%) 253 447 56.60 3223 25 10  88.6

Wilson
------
16 Games  9-7-0 (56.2%) 275 451 60.98 3786 25 12  95.3

Brady
-----
45Games 34-11-0 (75.5%) 1106 1764 62.70 12449 83 38 90.4

P Manning
---------
27 Games 14-13-0 (51.8%) 649 1027 63.19 7339 40 25 87.4

Just admit it. Ben sucks!