(12-25-2021, 01:51 AM)Whatever Wrote: Marvin had 3 All Pro's and 5 Pro Bowlers that he would carry over 3 years into his rebuild.  Zac has 1 All Pro and no Pro Bowlers.  Marvin inherited a much stronger core of talent that was entering their primes.  The top tier talent that Zac got were past their sell by date.  

Let's be honest...you can't rebuild any team without a QB.  Not everyone has a Ray Lewis led defense.

If ZT didn't land Joe Burrow he would be out this year or next.  As of right now i'm of the opinion JB is the reason we're now winning and not ZT.

I personally don't judge head coaches for rebuilding...i judge them for....head coaching.  (yes i'm sure they have plenty of input)

The jury is still out on ZT....

1) Can he consistently win?
2) Can he make the playoffs?
3) Can he win in the playoffs?

Until the answer to all three of these questions is Yes....he's worse than ML.  

(12-25-2021, 01:07 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Man.... Simmons. He was a solid player on some dark ages defenses. Liked that guy.

One of my favorites. Quiet, professional and very very good.

Probably underrated at this point.

(12-25-2021, 01:12 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: To me, rebuilding the O and D is a rather big accomplishment in essentially two years is not too shabby. The first year of Taylor saw very little roster turnover.

It really is...if he was largely responsible. Which was the premise of this thread. That said, I get that it's pretty impossible to tell for sure.

I am disqualifying myself from objectively participating in this thread due to my intense dislike of Zac Taylor as a coach. Thank you, and carry on.

(12-25-2021, 01:51 AM)Whatever Wrote: This is because of 2 main reasons.

First, Marvin's Bengals took Palmer #1 overall before there was a rookie wage scale and Palmer got a massive (at that time) 6 year, $42.7 mil rookie deal.  That drastically cuts down the money available for free agents.

Second, Marvin had nowhere near the complete rebuild that Zac had to do.  Look at the starters on the '05 club that were holdovers from previous coaches...

Rudi Johnson
Chad Johnson
TJ Houshmanzadeh
Willie Anderson
Rich Braham
Levi Jones
Justin Smith
Brian Simmons

Compared to for Zac in '21...

Tyler Boyd
CJ Uzomah
Trey Hopkins
Sam Hubbard
Jessie Bates

Marvin had 3 All Pro's and 5 Pro Bowlers that he would carry over 3 years into his rebuild.  Zac has 1 All Pro and no Pro Bowlers.  Marvin inherited a much stronger core of talent that was entering their primes.  The top tier talent that Zac got were past their sell by date.  

First of all you forgot that Taylor inherited Joe Mixon.

Second, not a single player that Marvin inherited had made a Pro Bowl until he coached them up.  In fact all that impressive "talent" that you claim Marvin inherited won only 2 games with a different coach the year before he arrived.  Meanwhile all the shitty players you complain about Taylor inheriting won 6 games with Marvin as coach.

(12-25-2021, 06:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all you forgot that Taylor inherited Joe Mixon.

Second, not a single player that Marvin inherited had made a Pro Bowl until he coached them up.  In fact all that impressive "talent" that you claim Marvin inherited won only 2 games with a different coach the year before he arrived.  Meanwhile all the shitty players you complain about Taylor inheriting won 6 games with Marvin as coach.

Well, until this season, Mixon has been mostly injured.

It’s a results oriented business. Taylor is one draft and FA away from having any excuses. Next year he needs ( barring key injuries) or ( losing some key players in FA and not replacing them) to at minimum win a playoff game. If they do it this year great. But make no mistake winning any division much less the AFC North is a coaching accomplishment from where he’s come.


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(12-25-2021, 06:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all you forgot that Taylor inherited Joe Mixon.

Second, not a single player that Marvin inherited had made a Pro Bowl until he coached them up.  In fact all that impressive "talent" that you claim Marvin inherited won only 2 games with a different coach the year before he arrived.  Meanwhile all the shitty players you complain about Taylor inheriting won 6 games with Marvin as coach.

Fair catch on Mixon.

First, on that list of Pro Bowlers and All Pro's, only one was a defensive guy(Justin Smith) and he didn't become a Pro Bowler/All Pro until he got out of Cinci and away from Marvin, the supposed defensive guru.  It's a big stretch to give Marvin credit for coaching up the offensive guys on rookie contracts when the team still had the OC that drafted them.  That would be like crediting Zac for Bates' All Pro season last year.

Second, you're arguing FA as an excuse for Marvin's failures but totally ignoring it when it comes to first year win totals.  Zac got John Miller (3 years/$16.5 mil), BW Webb(3 years/$10.5 mil), Kerry Wynn(1 year/$1.4 mil), and John Jerry(1 year/$930k).  That's like $12.3 mil APY.  Marvin got John Thornton (6 years,/$23 mil), Tory James(4 years/$14 mil), Kevin Hardy(4 years/$14 million), and Reggie Kelly(4 years/$6.8 mil).  That's about $12.5 mil APY and that was with the 2003 salary cap.  That's around $30 mil APY in adjusted cap dollars.  

Of course, another monkey wrench in this argument is that while Marvin won 6 games in '18, he only won 1 of 7 games without AJ Green, who also coincidentally didn't play at all in year 1 for Zac.  

At the end of the day, Marvin was a mediocre head coach who crumbled under pressure despite being given every opportunity to prove otherwise.  He is literally the worst playoff HC in NFL history at 0-7.  That's behind Jim Mora at 0-6.  His teams consistently underachieved.  

(12-22-2021, 08:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So one of the biggest reasons people gave for defending Marv through the years was that Marv was great at building rosters. Seeing how this team is loaded with talent and pretty much every player we've picked up (be it draft or free agency) has been a home run, do we attribute that to Zac and the current staff?

Or do we credit Tobin for rebuilding this team for a 3rd time (2001-2003, 2010-2013, 2019-2021)?

I ask because if Zac had a major role in shaping this roster, he has a much stronger case for another year, even if we go 0-3 down the stretch. If you think it was mainly Tobin, and the talented roster pretty much carried Zac to where we're at, I'd say the last 3 games should weigh heavily on whether we continue on with Zac.

Thoughts?

I haven't read through the entire thread, but here's my take.

1. The drafts have been fairly even in quality. Marvin had many excellent selections at basically every position with the exception of maybe center.


2. Free agency funds are dictated by the the front office and there's been a big change in this area.

However I really don't see how Zac has performed all that well when compared given the difference of money spent. He's spent A LOT more money on A LOT more players and has had mixed results. Three year deals to Miller, Brown, Hart and Webb were all signings that ended up released before completing their deals. Brown, Miller and Webb didn't make it to their 2nd year.

Then you add in Trae Waynes' $42M deal. I'm sorry, but Mike Brown would have never tolerated that kind of waisted money. The Waynes' waste alone would have prevented the signing of another significant outside free agent for 10 years if it had been done back in 2005.

For Marvin the front office signed a number guys who were near the end (LB Karlos Dansby, LB AJ Hawk, OT Newhouse, OT Winston, LB James Harrison). Marvin also got to sign 1st round busts as reclamation projects which gave us Reggie Nelson (trade), Adam Jones, Terence Newman, Cedric Benson. These guys were all excellent value but were done on a shoestring budget. I don't see that Zac could have done anything with reclamation projects.

Here's an interesting article covering the top outside free agents in the Marvin Lewis era. https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/4/3/15150488/top-10-bengals-free-agents-during-marvin-lewis-era Mike Nugent is listed as the #10 best free agent, which has to tell you something as the list covers 16 years worth of free agent signings. That just shows how Froogle the front office was. Chris Crocker also made the list.

I haven't looked up the contracts, but I'm guess that the amount of money spent on outside free agents in the last 3 years is much more than they'd spent for Marvin's teams over many, many years.


3. Let's talk record, the most important thing really. Marvin took over a 2 win team and turned it into an 8 win team and after 3 seasons had a 27-21 record. Marvin Lewis' 3rd season was 11-5 with a playoff birth, the first Bengals winning season and playoff appearance since Mike Brown inherited the team and named himself GM. That was historic!

Taylor took over a 6 win team and turned it into a 2 win team and after 3 years has a 15-31-1 record with 2 games left this season. Even if the Bengals do make the playoffs, it won't be historic unless they win some playoff games.

Zac hasn't been all bad. The team will end this season with a winning record, first one since 2015.

The defense, for the money spent, has been underachieving. Let's face it, this team bought itself a defense and it's an expensive defense with above average results overall but far from top flight.

I believe Mike Brown sees his days nearing an end and he wants to go out a winner and this is the reason for the changes in spending that we've seen. Has nothing to do with Taylor other than Taylor is seen as the guy Mike Brown wants to get it done for him.

I wasn't happy with Marvin the last couple of years. I don't see that Zac is any better even though the team is spending a lot more to field a better team.

 

(12-26-2021, 05:17 AM)Whatever Wrote: At the end of the day, Marvin was a mediocre head coach who crumbled under pressure despite being given every opportunity to prove otherwise.  

At the end of the day Marvin had a winning record against the rest of the NFL despite being handicapped by the worst front office in the league.

(12-26-2021, 05:17 AM)Whatever Wrote:  His teams consistently underachieved.  

No they did not.  The Bengals were rarely preseason picks to challenge for championships.  They were underdogs in 5 of their 7 playoff games under Marvin.  

(12-26-2021, 06:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: At the end of the day Marvin had a winning record against the rest of the NFL despite being handicapped by the worst front office in the league.



No they did not.  The Bengals were rarely preseason picks to challenge for championships.  They were underdogs in 5 of their 7 playoff games under Marvin.  

You can try to run with the "worst FO in in the league" narrative, but Marvin's 15+ years of employment is one of the biggest cited examples of the Brown family's incompetence.

You understand that odds makers don't just look at a team's roster when setting betting odds, right?  They also look at the coaching staff.  When your teams consistently choke and crumble in big games, odds makers are not going to favor you in playoff games.  That's been a constant through two roster rebuilds and numerous coordinators and assistant coaches.  Plus the same talking heads you're citing as not picking the Bengals in preseason are the same talking heads that screamed for years that Marvin should be fired for his failure in primetime and the postseason.  Marvin was a big reason why pundits wouldn't back the Bengals.  

Marvin Lewis deserves all the credit in the world for making this team relevant in the regular season. Unfortunately he didn’t have what it took to take the franchise to the next level and win in the playoffs. Marvin was 8-31 in prime time games. If you don’t know why people don’t take the Bengals seriously look at that record. Marvin sucked every time he took center stage.

The jury is still out on Zac Taylor. Despite a weak start To his career he can end this argument with one victory. If he wins one playoff game this year he’ll have accomplished something Marvin Lewis never will. He can’t say he had a .500 record his rookie season but he’s a young coach with a chance to put Cincinnati back on the map.

(12-26-2021, 08:24 PM)Whatever Wrote: You can try to run with the "worst FO in in the league" narrative, but Marvin's 15+ years of employment is one of the biggest cited examples of the Brown family's incompetence.

No it isn't.  Not even close.  The '90's was the era that created the "bungles".  Marvin's tenure was the longets sustained winning era in team history.

(12-26-2021, 08:24 PM)Whatever Wrote: You understand that odds makers don't just look at a team's roster when setting betting odds, right?  

Right, they also look at win/loss records and if you are starting your back up QB.

The media you claim hated Marvin voted him NFL Coach of the Year in 2009.  And there actually were not a lot of pundits who called fro Marvin to be replaced until after the 2015 playoff collapse.  In fact it was so rare that fans who hated Steven A. Smith with a passion would post quotes from him because he was anti-Marvin.

(12-26-2021, 08:42 PM)C0de_M0nkey Wrote: Marvin Lewis deserves all the credit in the world for making this team relevant in the regular season. Unfortunately he didn’t have what it took to take the franchise to the next level and win in the playoffs. Marvin was 8-31 in prime time games. If you don’t know why people don’t take the Bengals seriously look at that record. Marvin sucked every time he took center stage.

The jury is still out on Zac Taylor. Despite a weak start To his career he can end this argument with one victory. If he wins one playoff game this year he’ll have accomplished something Marvin Lewis never will. He can’t say he had a .500 record his rookie season but he’s a young coach with a chance to put Cincinnati back on the map.

This is nonsense at it's core..Marvin coached against the steelers when they were loaded not This steelers team you see today...He also coached against ravens teams that would've tore this zac Taylor team to pieces and that's just facts..

(12-26-2021, 09:11 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: This is nonsense at it's core..Marvin coached against the steelers when they were loaded not This steelers team you see today...He also coached against ravens teams that would've tore this zac Taylor team to pieces and that's just facts..

I don’t know what that has to do with Marvin’s winless playoff record. The Steelers aren’t good but they’re no worse than the 8-8 Steelers team that knocked Marvin out of the playoffs in 2006. He was bad against the Steeler’s but he wasn’t good against anyone in the playoffs or in prime time games. If Zac wins one playoff game this year few fans will call Marvin the better coach. I know that’s a low bar but Marvin had 15 years to clear it and he failed.

(12-26-2021, 09:43 PM)C0de_M0nkey Wrote: I don’t know what that has to do with Marvin’s winless playoff record. The Steelers aren’t good but they’re  no worse than the 8-8 Steelers team that knocked Marvin out of the playoffs in 2006. He was bad against the Steeler’s but he wasn’t good against anyone in the playoffs or in prime time games. If Zac wins one playoff game this year few fans will call Marvin the better coach. I know that’s a low bar but Marvin had 15 years to clear it and he failed.

I can't disagree, though it will feel pretty weird saying a guy who is like 15 games under .500 is our best HC in over 30 years.  That's the Bengals for ya...win a playoff game and you'll be the best HC the team has had since the Reagan era.

(12-26-2021, 09:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I can't disagree, though it will feel pretty weird saying a guy who is like 15 games under .500 is our best HC in over 30 years.  That's the Bengals for ya...win a playoff game and you'll be the best HC the team has had since the Reagan era.

If he gets a playoff win, I offer we take the perspective he's laying a foundation to become a top Bengals all-tome coach.

If he wins a Super Bowl, erect the bronze statue outside the stadium asap.

(12-26-2021, 09:49 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: If he gets a playoff win, I offer we take the perspective he's laying a foundation to become a top Bengals all-tome coach.

If he wins a Super Bowl, erect the bronze statue outside the stadium asap.

I guess we will see.  I'm on board with guzzling the orange Flavorade and declaring Burrow the best QB we've had in 50+ years, but I'm a bit more hesitant to declare ZT anything but a lucky guy who is getting carried to victory by that QB who is already better than you know...multiple MVP QBs we've had.

(12-26-2021, 09:11 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: This is nonsense at it's core..Marvin coached against the steelers when they were loaded not This steelers team you see today...He also coached against ravens teams that would've tore this zac Taylor team to pieces and that's just facts..

.633 win percentage against Baltimore...

(12-26-2021, 09:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I guess we will see.  I'm on board with guzzling the orange Flavorade and declaring Burrow the best QB we've had in 50+ years, but I'm a bit more hesitant to declare ZT anything but a lucky guy who is getting carried to victory by that QB who is already better than you know...multiple MVP QBs we've had.

I'm with you. I mean I hope and pray ZT is turning a corner finally. But I'm still not ready to declare him the bestest of them all.

(12-26-2021, 09:43 PM)C0de_M0nkey Wrote:  If Zac wins one playoff game this year few fans will call Marvin the better coach. I know that’s a low bar but Marvin had 15 years to clear it and he failed.

(12-26-2021, 09:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I can't disagree, though it will feel pretty weird saying a guy who is like 15 games under .500 is our best HC in over 30 years.  That's the Bengals for ya...win a playoff game and you'll be the best HC the team has had since the Reagan administartion.

Bengal fans are probably the only ones who ignore regular season games and Super Bowls and instead just judge coaches on playoff wins.

No other fan base would think Dom Capers, Mike Mularky, and Jim Haslett were all better head coaches than Marvin Lewis.