(02-03-2022, 10:17 AM)Sled21 Wrote:  you would recognize a vast change from years previous, where players would give up and turn on each other. 

Give me an example of when this happened?

(02-03-2022, 09:00 AM)Au165 Wrote: Yea, I definitely wanted Young early in the process because of the issues at O line. By the end of Burrows season at LSU though I had turned to Burrow and we will figure it out haha. Sometimes a guy just transcends normal logic.

Isn't that what Burrow does? He makes you Believe.

(02-02-2022, 03:43 PM)Au165 Wrote: I have thought a lot about this since Sunday. I usually comment more or make threads that are more X and O centric as that is what I think about when it comes to winning. For the last few years we have had people here who took every chance they could get to discredit the cultural changes that were occurring. I in some of these cases was one of those skeptics on how it would help the team actually win. No single change was a magic bullet but the sum of the pieces have definitely contributed to turning the organizational culture around.

Ownership: In hindsight we made the right pick with Zach, but how did we get there? We had a group beyond just Mike Brown that relied on Katie Blackburn, but also Duke Tobin and others who were open to finding the next big thing rather than a retread or easy choice. We went after a guy who may have been a year or two off from being ready but we weren't in a position to get the top guy when he is the top guy so they gambled on getting the top guy before he was fully baked. A lot of organizations play it safe and take the retread, we took a risk and it worked.

Coaching: Zac came in and wanted a very specific staff. Did he make some mistakes? Sure, Pollack getting away in favor of turner was a bump in the road but he learned and moved forward. His coordinator positions were often questioned but he had faith in these guys who many other didn't, and it would have been easy to sacrifice them after the first two years like most organizations but we stayed the course. Now both look to be on the road to getting HC shots in the future.

Roster Construction: This was a huge undertaking no matter what anyone wants to say. The roster when Taylor got here was not good as it was filled with aging vets and guys who frankly were to engrained in their ways to buy in to a new approach. We had to move on from many long time staples, and sometimes that was ugly, but it was the right move for the culture. The organization set out to spend in FA, but spend on players who fit both schematically and culturally. While someone like Waynes didn't pan out many of those free agents did, and even some of the bets they made in letting our good players leave to bring in replacements who on paper were arguably downgrades was a huge change. For years our motto was keep our own, but we knew our own weren't going to get it done.

Draft: It's easy to look at Burrow and end this point here because culturally speaking he is the kind of person you want on your team, but it actually goes further than that. Early on when Taylor was here there was an emphasis on drafting guys of high character, guys who were captains. Did we kill every pick? No, but what we did was built a roster of guys who you can trust to handle adversity and bounce back which we have done this year well.

Game Experience: People laughed at things like Elizabeth Blackburn coming in and improving our game day experience or our social media experience. People would quip that it wouldn't lead to wins on the field, but good engagement helps create better fans and better fans create a better home field experience as well as helps keep players in the organization. The uniforms were similar, anyone who has coached knows that players feel good when they think they look good and letting this group experience a little bit of an overhaul definitely helped energize them this year.

Ring of honor: What do names on a stadium have to do with winning? Pride in who you are and where you come from means a lot. Recognizing the past helps create a pride for the team and makes it a more desirable place to be.

People will probably come here and say most of these things have nothing to do with winning, but I'll disagree. Players are humans, and even though it's their job it doesn't mean they are going to bring the energy to perform it well everyday just because they get a check. We had that for years, even when we had success, and it didn't evolve into a true culture people wanted to be a part of long term. You hear a lot from our players, especially the free agents that have gotten here in the last two years, the culture is different and it makes this place a place people want to be. It's a team first place and a place I think we will see free agents flock to over the next couple years. Sure, Joe Burrow will be a big selling point but there is going to be a lot more to it I think when those players start talking.

Culture does matter to the team.  If they weren't winning, everything else would not be falling in to place.  The way they have won, and the fact that nearly EVERY player has had some moment where they were a huge contribution to the win, shows the dedication and group effort that these guys want to play so hard for each other. 

Energy guys like Joe Mixon and Mike Hilton.  Veteran leaders like Reader, Hubbard, and Bates.  Young talent like Chase, Burrow, Higgins, Wilson.  This team was BEAUTIFULLY constructed.  

Even though they didn't deserve it, they carried a massive monkey on their back, which they exorcised.  They then make an amazing run to the big game.  After they win it all, there will be a MASSIVE surge in Bengal fans as the world sees what we have seen almost all season long:  this team is fun, talented, and special. 

(02-03-2022, 10:17 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Anyone with any semblance of impartiality should have been able to look at what Taylor was doing with the roster and see he was building something special. 

You were never impartial.  You were in love with Zac before he ever did a single thing with the roster.  You thought he was brilliant to give Preston Brown a 2 year extension before the '19 season and then cut him halfway through the season. You thought he was brilliant when he decided Ryan Finley was better than Andy Dalton.

(02-03-2022, 11:11 AM)Synric Wrote: Isn't that what Burrow does? He makes you Believe.

Yes....yes he does.

(02-03-2022, 11:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You were never impartial.  You were in love with Zac before he ever did a single thing with the roster.  You thought he was brilliant to give Preston Brown a 2 year extension before the '19 season and then cut him halfway through the season. You thought he was brilliant when he decided Ryan Finley was better than Andy Dalton.

Zac doesn’t extend anybody. Mike Brown and Duke do. Does Zac have a say? Sure. Zac started Finley because he needed to find out what he had. They knew they were moving on from Andy which is now obvious.

(02-03-2022, 12:43 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Zac doesn’t extend anybody. Mike Brown and Duke do. Does Zac have a say? Sure. Zac started Finley because he needed to find out what he had. They knew they were moving on from Andy which is now obvious.

Exactly. There was no way to know what Finley was without letting him play a little bit. We all knew what Dalton was, and at that time he was not getting it done. 

(02-03-2022, 11:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You were never impartial.  You were in love with Zac before he ever did a single thing with the roster.  You thought he was brilliant to give Preston Brown a 2 year extension before the '19 season and then cut him halfway through the season. You thought he was brilliant when he decided Ryan Finley was better than Andy Dalton.

Nope, never in love with Taylor. I was in love with Taylor's vision of what he wanted this team to become. And yes, you have to play Finley to see if he was worth keeping. I mean, it's not like Dalton (who I really liked) was winning any games at that point.

(02-03-2022, 03:49 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You ninja'd, so you know the "propped up" bit is absurd, but I wouldn't disagree that he's been greatly helped by Chase. Being able to just chuck it downfield and knowing you have a guy open down there is great for any QB.

We saw that with Young/Rice, Murray/Hopkins, and Stafford/Megatron just off the top of my head, but there are countless others I am sure. It's no mystery why Kirk Cousins put up his two highest TD years, two of his 3 highest passing yard years, and two of his 3 highest QB Rating years all in his 2 years with Justin Jefferson. In the regular season the Bengals were 3-5 when Chase had less than 60 receiving yards, 7-2 when he had more than 60.

Absolutely was hyperbole....Joe Burrow is a one of a kind type of player. No question. I think you know what I was referring to.

That said, Chase has opened up the passing game tremendously...and therefore Zac's playbook. Joe Burrow just happens to execute said playbook with near surgical precision. Then there's the intangible aspect of his game. 

(02-03-2022, 12:43 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Zac doesn’t extend anybody. 

Interesting comment considering that so many people here are giving Zac credit for all the free agents we signed to build this roster.

(02-03-2022, 10:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Perfect example of the point I was making.  Culture does not create wins.  Wins create culture.  If the '88 team won because of some culture they had created then they would not have been a .500 team the very next year with the very same coach and the very same "culture".

Hmmm.....and yet Ken Anderson was on WLW this morning talking about how Forrest Gregg's culture changing methods contributed *directly* to the 81 season's good fortunes. I'm sure you know better than Kenny about how a NFL locker room operates though.

(02-03-2022, 12:54 PM)Sled21 Wrote: And yes, you have to play Finley to see if he was worth keeping. 

Most NFL coaches are able to evaluate players in practice.

That is why most back up QBs don't play unless there is an injury.

(02-03-2022, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Give me an example of when this happened?

When they gave up? The Minnesota game when it was rumored that Marvin was leaving.

(02-03-2022, 12:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Most NFL coaches are able to evaluate players in practice.

That is why most back up QBs don't play unless there is an injury.

You mean like Brady?

(02-03-2022, 12:57 PM)Wyche Wrote: Hmmm.....and yet Ken Anderson was WLW this morning talking about how Forrest Gregg's culture changing methods contributed *directly* to the 81 season's good fortunes. I'm sure you know better than Kenny about how a NFL locker room operates though.

I can find clips of players who supported their coaches even when they were horrible.  What do you say about all the Bengals who said Marvin was a greta coach?

Did Anderson happen to mention why Gregg was fired just two years later after a losing season?  Did he explain how the "culture" disappeared so quickly while the exact same coach was still there?

(02-03-2022, 01:01 PM)Sled21 Wrote: You mean like Brady?

Exactly my point.

You had to go back 20 years to find an example.  Tom Brady is probably the most extreme "outlier" in NFL history.

(02-03-2022, 03:31 AM)Wyche Wrote: So.....talk to that 88 team about building a family culture, and how it helped them out. There was an article I posted about all of that last week. Seems like there is some of that cooking now.

It can be a combination of things, ya know. It also took a little time to weed out all of the dead wood from the last system that was in place.

Yep

This is just speculation but I believe AJ Green, Carlos Dunlap and others had little to no desire to be on this team after ML left.

(02-03-2022, 12:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Most NFL coaches are able to evaluate players in practice.

That is why most back up QBs don't play unless there is an injury.

Tyrod Taylor? He was in Baltimore and was constantly drafted around by other guys who were going to be the future in BAL. Eventually he did get to play a couple games and other teams saw he could play and that started his pretty successful journeyman career. Ryan Fitzpatrick had a similar experience. Jacoby Brissett as well. You don't tend to find superstars on the bench like Brady, but you do tend to find out pretty often how good of a backup/journeyman type guy you may have by getting them game experience. 

(02-03-2022, 12:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Interesting comment considering that so many people here are giving Zac credit for all the free agents we signed to build this roster.

Zac, Duke, and Mike make decisions on FA and the draft together. They present their case and if Duke and Zac disagree which is seldom then Mike breaks the tie. But extensions? Zac has little input. Most coaches don’t. You know that.

(02-03-2022, 01:06 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep

This is just speculation but I believe AJ Green, Carlos Dunlap and others had little to no desire to be on this team after ML left.

Can't blame Dunlap.  In 2019 he got 9 sacks, 13 TFL, and 21 QB hits and the coaches responded by wanting to get rid of him because he "did not fit their system".

Why would any player want to stay where he was not wanted?