(02-03-2022, 07:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Great QB does make everything look better, sure...but we've signed/drafted the following players in the last 2 years:

DJ Reader
Larry Ogunjobi
BJ Hill
Trey Hendrickson
(We suddenly have an elite dline now)
Logan Wilson
Awuzie
Hilton
Bell
Chase
Spain
Etc

Joe Burrow is great. Lots of credit to him...but I get triggered when people go overboard. He didn't make these guys great players. He didn't identify if they were a fit and go out and sign them.

They deserve credit for their own greatness without us assigning it to Joe Burrow instead. Same with the FO. 

Joey is the same guy he was last year when he went 2-7-1. We just put a cast around him that's worthy. Now we're seeing his (and everyone else's) true ability.

I think it's a tricky argument to make either way. We're trying to put our finger on the source of the magic. Of course it can't only be Burrow- he plays in one phase of the game. But as a leader and just a guy who serves as the axis of the team (they literally call him "Franchise") it's hard to define how far-reaching and profound his influence really is. 

If you look at the historical data, you'll almost never find a great quarterback who wasn't supplemented by supposedly great drafts, coaches or free agents. Not to say that the importance of those drafts, coaches or free agents can be summarily dismissed on account of the quarterback. But it's hard to ascribe something like that to coincidence. They sort of work together, don't they? The difference is, I think if you move the quarterback to another team, he'll excel there too... as we saw with Peyton in Denver or Brady in Tampa, for example. Whereas I'm not sure you could say the same for the drafts, coaches or free agents that are left behind. 

I think the notion of an elevator is very real, even if it doesn't necessarily make sense. I might even be inclined to use the term "mask" instead of elevator, since they tend to hide weaknesses as much as they reinforce (or give rise to) strengths. One example of that might be our offensive line this year. I mean, this is a putrid line, yet it hasn't slowed down Joe Burrow. We're just a sliver away from having some people argue that you don't need pass protection to win in this league lol, "Look at Joe Burrow!" So not only can franchise players make their teammates look good, they can also challenge our value system as football fans more broadly. It's awfully intriguing to me. 

(02-03-2022, 07:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Great QB does make everything look better, sure...but we've signed/drafted the following players in the last 2 years:

DJ Reader
Larry Ogunjobi
BJ Hill
Trey Hendrickson
(We suddenly have an elite dline now)
Logan Wilson
Awuzie
Hilton
Bell
Chase
Spain
Etc

Joe Burrow is great. Lots of credit to him...but I get triggered when people go overboard. He didn't make these guys great players. He didn't identify if they were a fit and go out and sign them.

They deserve credit for their own greatness without us assigning it to Joe Burrow instead. Same with the FO. 

Joey is the same guy he was last year when he went 2-7-1. We just put a cast around him that's worthy. Now we're seeing his (and everyone else's) true ability.

Well, Joe should at least get some of the credit for us having one of the players on that list. And I’m not talking about Reader…

(02-03-2022, 02:32 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Tyler Boyd and Sam Hubbard (I think).

That is really freaking hard from me to believe - that this roster was completely scrubbed in like three years. It was completely gutted from the coaching staff to the players on the field.

I know it helps to basically luck into the drafting of Burrow #1 overall - that will completely accelerate a rebuild...but man, could this rebuild have went ANY better? Just complete hits on the draft, free agency, and a lot of key positions on the team that matter.

Yes there were some misses and they could add pieces this off-season to REALLY solidify this team, but I think a major storyline that doesn't get talk about enough is just how efficient this rebuild was and how this roster was completely flipped.

Many players left who were here with Marvin, as others have noted.

Taylor doesn't do the drafting, but he helps just as Marvin did. The coaches didn't want Ross, but the front office did. I'd also like to point out that the team has had 3 picks in the top 11 in Taylor's 3 seasons. Marvin only had 5 picks in the top 11 over his 18 years. Of course, Marvin didn't have pick 32 either. LOL

There have been many excellent draft picks over the past 20 years.

We'll be picking last in the each round this year. The draft changes for a team in that position.

 

(02-03-2022, 02:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Even good teams miss on first round picks sometimes, but the Bengals went from a string of the worst luck with first round picks in the history of the league to taking back-to-back All Pro type players in Burrow and Chase.

Look at what we had gotten out of first round picks in the last 6 years of Marvins reign.

13-Eifert....Elite talent, but only one full season at elite level
14-Dennard....Not bad, but again only one full season of top play in 6 years
15-Ogbuehi....Total disaster.  Sometimes you "miss" on a first round pick because he just becomes an average starter.  Ogbuehi could not even do that.
16-WJ3.....Really good player early in career.  But only played 16 games once in 5 years.
17-Ross......See "Ogbuehi"
18-Price......See "Ross"


Combine those picks with the fact that our front office would not sign top free agents to fill the holes left by missed first round picks and the team was doomed.

Agreed, we did tend to draft horrible after Marvin got entrenched. It was like we got worse when the organization trusted more to Marvin.

More on the role and impact Burrow has had…

Burrow with a strong statement about being involved in the process of acquiring talent. Being asked his opinion on players coming in for visits, or watch film on draft prospects. Said you don’t have to use my opinion, but it’s nice to have it heard. Said he’s seen QBs frustrated

— James Palmer (@JamesPalmerTV) February 3, 2022

(02-03-2022, 08:07 PM)tms Wrote: I think it's a tricky argument to make either way. We're trying to put our finger on the source of the magic. Of course it can't only be Burrow- he plays in one phase of the game. But as a leader and just a guy who serves as the axis of the team (they literally call him "Franchise") it's hard to define how far-reaching and profound his influence really is. 

If you look at the historical data, you'll almost never find a great quarterback who wasn't supplemented by supposedly great drafts, coaches or free agents. Not to say that the importance of those drafts, coaches or free agents can be summarily dismissed on account of the quarterback. But it's hard to ascribe something like that to coincidence. They sort of work together, don't they? The difference is, I think if you move the quarterback to another team, he'll excel there too... as we saw with Peyton in Denver or Brady in Tampa, for example. Whereas I'm not sure you could say the same for the drafts, coaches or free agents that are left behind. 

I think the notion of an elevator is very real, even if it doesn't necessarily make sense. I might even be inclined to use the term "mask" instead of elevator, since they tend to hide weaknesses as much as they reinforce (or give rise to) strengths. One example of that might be our offensive line this year. I mean, this is a putrid line, yet it hasn't slowed down Joe Burrow. We're just a sliver away from having some people argue that you don't need pass protection to win in this league lol, "Look at Joe Burrow!" So not only can franchise players make their teammates look good, they can also challenge our value system as football fans more broadly. It's awfully intriguing to me. 

The Bucs went 7-9 in 2019...so that team was trash till Brady showed up, right? Well, not exactly. They had the 3rd ranked offense in both points and yards. Defense showed potential being 15th in yards, but were 29th in points allowed.

That probably had something to Winston throwing 30 picks. You swap that out for an elite QB? Pretty easy to see how they won a SB. Offense was already amazing without Brady, and the D showed it's true colors when they weren't having to deal with a QB turning it over 2-3 times every week.

Same story with Peyton in Denver. Tim Tebow won a playoff game with that roster. Add in elite QB? Super Bowl.

Of course teams are way better with an elite QB. You almost need one to be in the championship conversation. But you also need a boatload of talent. Brady and Peyton weren't stupid. They picked Tampa and Denver for a reason.

Similar story here. Burrow showed serious potential last year...but the defense was abysmal and on top of a porous o-line, we had no big play explosive players. We went 2-7-1 in his starts. Not because Joey wasn't ready. I think he was.

The team just wasn't there yet. All those players I listed got started this year, pretty much.

TL/DR: I agree an elite QB inspires an entire team and has a tremendous impact on pretty much every aspect of the team. But I also say an elite QB isn't going to lift a cast of scrubs or even mediocre players to anything really. You need an elite QB and a great roster to be where we are.

(02-03-2022, 10:22 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: More on the role and impact Burrow has had…

Burrow with a strong statement about being involved in the process of acquiring talent. Being asked his opinion on players coming in for visits, or watch film on draft prospects. Said you don’t have to use my opinion, but it’s nice to have it heard. Said he’s seen QBs frustrated

— James Palmer (@JamesPalmerTV) February 3, 2022

Most teams ask their franchise guy his opinion. That doesn't mean Joey B should get more credit than Tobin or Zac for the guys on this roster. We're being foolish if we believe it was contructed by Burrow. I'm sure he has some sway, but the guys they're showing him, I'm pretty sure they already have an opinion on, and only a strong reaction by Joe would change that opinion.

(02-03-2022, 05:56 PM)tms Wrote: I'm one who believes we give waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit (and blame) to coaches for their drafts.

Here's Zach's 2019:

1 - Jonah Williams, OT
2 - Drew Sample, TE
3 - Germaine Pratt, LB
4 - Ryan Finley, QB
4 - Renell Wren, DT
4 - Michael Jordan, OL
6 - Trayveon Williams, RB
6 - Deshaun Davis, LB
6 - Rodney Anderson, RB
7 - Jordan Brown, DB

*5 of the 10 are gone. Wren is basically PS fodder and Trayveon doesn't see the field. Which leaves Jonah, Sample and Pratt. To his credit Pratt has emerged recently but he was never a game-breaker before. Sample's seen as one of the worst second-round picks in history. Jonah is... well... he's the kind of LT around whom three years into his career we still wonder whether he's even playing the right position. Best case, he's a serviceable blindside protector who stays in his lane. Worst case, he's the leader (by default) of a line that tops the league in sacks allowed.

But how many players taken after the fourth round do you really expect to stick each year? For the most part they're practice squad fodder and you hope to get one or two that can eventually make the active roster and contribute.  Going through the list from recent years, it's pretty uncommon for 5th+ round picks to stick around and contribute for long and rare to get more than one.

2017 - Jordan Evans, Brandon Wilson, Mason Schreck - three backups
2012 - Marvin Jones, George Iloka - two decent starters
2009 - Kevin Huber, Bernard Scott - two role players

On the topic of high round whiffs, don't forget Fisher in the second round the same year as Ogbuehi.  That double whiff on our "bookend tackles of the future" combined with letting Whitworth go was really the death of the Marvin Lewis era. 

(02-03-2022, 11:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Most teams ask their franchise guy his opinion. That doesn't mean Joey B should get more credit than Tobin or Zac for the guys on this roster. We're being foolish if we believe it was contructed by Burrow. I'm sure he has some sway, but the guys they're showing him, I'm pretty sure they already have an opinion on, and only a strong reaction by Joe would change that opinion.

I’m not going to get into assigning percentages as to who should get more or less credit. I was just adding on to what TMS was saying about the Burrow effect.

(02-03-2022, 11:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The Bucs went 7-9 in 2019...so that team was trash till Brady showed up, right? Well, not exactly. They had the 3rd ranked offense in both points and yards. Defense showed potential being 15th in yards, but were 29th in points allowed.

That probably had something to Winston throwing 30 picks. You swap that out for an elite QB? Pretty easy to see how they won a SB. Offense was already amazing without Brady, and the D showed it's true colors when they weren't having to deal with a QB turning it over 2-3 times every week.

Same story with Peyton in Denver. Tim Tebow won a playoff game with that roster. Add in elite QB? Super Bowl.

Of course teams are way better with an elite QB. You almost need one to be in the championship conversation. But you also need a boatload of talent. Brady and Peyton weren't stupid. They picked Tampa and Denver for a reason.

Similar story here. Burrow showed serious potential last year...but the defense was abysmal and on top of a porous o-line, we had no big play explosive players. We went 2-7-1 in his starts. Not because Joey wasn't ready. I think he was.

The team just wasn't there yet. All those players I listed got started this year, pretty much.

TL/DR: I agree an elite QB inspires an entire team and has a tremendous impact on pretty much every aspect of the team. But I also say an elite QB isn't going to lift a cast of scrubs or even mediocre players to anything really. You need an elite QB and a great roster to be where we are.

Yeah, we can go back and forth on the chicken or the egg. It's tough to say which is which and I believe it's some combination. Obviously if the team is garbage there's no hope regardless. I'm not really talking about those cases. More the seismic impact that a generational player can have on your team to enable them form a whole greater than the sum of the parts. 

I wouldn't get too close to those examples, either, they were just the first ones that came to mind. The fact is that Denver and Tampa took enormous leaps with those players. Not from ground zero, but enormous leaps nonetheless. It works the other way too. It's no different than New Orleans dropping from 12-4 to 9-8 their first season without Brees, Pats from 12-4 to 7-9 without Brady, SF from 12-4 to 4-12 without Young, Denver from 14-2 to 6-10 without Elway, etc. Quarterback is clearly a position that has an exponential effect across the board, which makes it difficult to isolate why and how other positions/departments are performing how they are. You can't grade any of them in a vacuum, at least not to the same extent.

A good quote is one I heard from Hubbard just now in the interview in the other thread:

"I think the thing you see with our team is that the defense plays so hard at all times because we have full faith that whenever Joe gets the ball, he can get us back into the game. So we literally never quit or question that if we keep getting stops, Joe can bring us back in the game." 

In other words, they never quit for reasons that have nothing to do with talent, drafting or coaching. In fact for reasons that have nothing even to do with them. Just Joe Burrow. Now whether he's exaggerating or not, we can't say for sure. But it's still pretty powerful.

(02-04-2022, 12:20 AM)tms Wrote: Yeah, we can go back and forth on the chicken or the egg. It's tough to say which is which and I believe it's some combination. Obviously if the team is garbage there's no hope regardless. I'm not really talking about those cases. More the seismic impact that a generational player can have on your team to enable them form a whole greater than the sum of the parts. 

I wouldn't get too close to those examples, either, they were just the first ones that came to mind. The fact is that Denver and Tampa took enormous leaps with those players. Not from ground zero, but enormous leaps nonetheless. It works the other way too. It's no different than New Orleans dropping from 12-4 to 9-8 their first season without Brees, Pats from 12-4 to 7-9 without Brady, SF from 12-4 to 4-12 without Young, Denver from 14-2 to 6-10 without Elway, etc. Quarterback is clearly a position that has an exponential effect across the board, which makes it difficult to isolate why and how other positions/departments are performing how they are. You can't grade any of them in a vacuum, at least not to the same extent.

A good quote is one I heard from Hubbard just now in the interview in the other thread:

"I think the thing you see with our team is that the defense plays so hard at all times because we have full faith that whenever Joe gets the ball, he can get us back into the game. So we literally never quit or question that if we keep getting stops, Joe can bring us back in the game." 

In other words, they never quit for reasons that have nothing to do with talent, drafting or coaching. In fact for reasons that have nothing even to do with them. Just Joe Burrow. Now whether he's exaggerating or not, we can't say for sure. But it's still pretty powerful.

I don't see why there should be any confusion. Doesn't seem all that complicated to me. If you just look at team records without any context, sure you'll get confused...but with the context I added on my last post in reference to the Bucs and Broncos, it's easy to see that they were exceptionally talented teams with dire needs at QB that were then filled by Hall or Famers.

Again, Peyton and Brady knew what they were doing when they hand selected Denver and Tampa. It wasn't a mistake. They didn't go there due to the nice weather. They had the best setup of any of their options.

Elite QB + great roster = SB. Simple as that.
Elite QB + mediocre roster = Brady/Rodgers/Peyton losing in the playoffs, as has occurred many times.
Great roster + mediocre QB = similar disappointing result.

I'll leave it at that. We don't have to fully agree.

(02-04-2022, 12:04 AM)Roland Wrote: But how many players taken after the fourth round do you really expect to stick each year? For the most part they're practice squad fodder and you hope to get one or two that can eventually make the active roster and contribute.  Going through the list from recent years, it's pretty uncommon for 5th+ round picks to stick around and contribute for long and rare to get more than one.

2017 - Jordan Evans, Brandon Wilson, Mason Schreck - three backups
2012 - Marvin Jones, George Iloka - two decent starters
2009 - Kevin Huber, Bernard Scott - two role players

For sure. I don't disagree. I'm probably bigger into the draft than I am the NFL, and most fans would concede that anything from Day 3 is a bonus. I'm just saying that the drafts have not necessarily gotten a major lift from Zac as from Burrow. The only discrete data that we have on this is from 2019, which was very pedestrian. 2020 and 2021 are hard to gauge because we're now in the After-Joe era. Today's players and coaches are being thrown to the wolves and they're part of a winner, yes- but how much can be attributed to their performance in isolation of their quarterback's? It's hard to say. 

We already know Joe can win games- potentially a Super Bowl- with a bottom five offensive line. Which makes it almost impossible to draw conclusions on what anyone else is doing. If he can win despite the guys standing right in front of him, it stands to reason he can win despite any of the other positions as well. I can't name any player on the 53 who's perceived to be having a "bad year"- is that because they're not, or because Burrow's extraordinary success is giving everyone a shiny paint job? I don't know.

(02-04-2022, 12:40 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't see why there should be any confusion. Doesn't seem all that complicated to me. If you just look at team records without any context, sure you'll get confused...but with the context I added on my last post in reference to the Bucs and Broncos, it's easy to see that they were exceptionally talented teams with dire needs at QB that were then filled by Hall or Famers.

Again, Peyton and Brady knew what they were doing when they hand selected Denver and Tampa. It wasn't a mistake. They didn't go there due to the nice weather. They had the best setup of any of their options.

Elite QB + great roster = SB. Simple as that.
Elite QB + mediocre roster = Brady/Rodgers/Peyton losing in the playoffs, as has occurred many times.
Great roster + mediocre QB = similar disappointing result.

I'll leave it at that. We don't have to fully agree.

Yeah, I don't want to get too close to those cases but I also don't want to use the exception to prove the rule. So I'll try to rule out the exception lol. I agree it wasn't a coincidence that they went to those teams- and they only joined them because they thought they could win- but neither one was considered a Super Bowl contender without them. It only further proves the point. Peyton and Brady were so good that they could take even mediocre teams (8-8 and 7-9 respectively) to a ring.

We don't have to agree on this but I think Hubbard's point speaks for itself. The ripple effect of a generational quarterback on a team's performance is profound. :p

(02-04-2022, 12:41 AM)tms Wrote: We already know Joe can win games- potentially a Super Bowl- with a bottom five offensive line. Which makes it almost impossible to draw conclusions on what anyone else is doing. If he can win despite the guys standing right in front of him, it stands to reason he can win despite any of the other positions as well. I can't name any player on the 53 who's perceived to be having a "bad year"- is that because they're not, or because Burrow's extraordinary success is giving everyone a shiny paint job? I don't know.

OK I know I said I was done responding but I can't resist on this take.

How is Joe Burrow responsible for Hendrickson getting 14 sacks? For Awuzie being a top rated corner? For Wilson taking a giant leap and becoming a big playmaker? For Chase beating his man constantly or taking a short pass, juking 3 defenders and outrunning everyone to the house? For Mixon being the tank he's always been?

I mean, I get that Joe gives a massive moral boost and makes everyone feel like they're "always in it". That may help their energy/effort level, but it's not making these players beat their man. Joe's Aura isn't going to help them there. They need talent.

A good portion of our players performed at the same level with guys not named Joe Burrow. The overall team W/L performance is just better because we have an elite QB. That can also change some people's PERCEPTION of these players.

In reality though, they're just great players. Even Joe will tell you that. He raves about the talent on this team. Maybe we should take a page out of Joe's book and do the same. This is a great team. Period.

I'm almost starting to feel like if I don't grovel at Joe's feet and credit him with the invention of sliced bread and electricity, it won't be enough for some on here.

(02-04-2022, 12:56 AM)tms Wrote: Yeah, I don't want to get too close to those cases but I also don't want to use the exception to prove the rule. So I'll try to rule out the exception lol. I agree it wasn't a coincidence that they went to those teams- and they only joined them because they thought they could win- but neither one was considered a Super Bowl contender without them. It only further proves the point. Peyton and Brady were so good that they could take even mediocre teams (8-8 and 7-9 respectively) to a ring.

We don't have to agree on this but I think Hubbard's point speaks for itself. The ripple effect of a generational quarterback on a team's performance is profound. :p

They weren't mediocre rosters though.

They were great rosters with bad QBs (Tebow and Winston).

(02-04-2022, 12:59 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: OK I know I said I was done responding but I can't resist on this take.

How is Joe Burrow responsible for Hendrickson getting 14 sacks? For Awuzie being a top rated corner? For Wilson taking a giant leap and becoming a big playmaker? For Chase beating his man constantly or taking a short pass, juking 3 defenders and outrunning everyone to the house? For Mixon being the tank he's always been?

I mean, I get that Joe gives a massive moral boost and makes everyone feel like they're "always in it". That may help their energy/effort level, but it's not making these players beat their man. Joe's Aura isn't going to help them there. They need talent.

A good portion of our players performed at the same level with guys not named Joe Burrow. The overall team W/L performance is just better because we have an elite QB. That can also change some people's PERCEPTION of these players.

In reality though, they're just great players. Even Joe will tell you that. He raves about the talent on this team. Maybe we should take a page out of Joe's book and do the same. This is a great team. Period.

I'm almost starting to feel like if I don't grovel at Joe's feet and credit him with the invention of sliced bread and electricity, it won't be enough for some on here.

I think you're missing the point, but that's at least partly my fault. I'm saying it's a combination. The chicken or the egg is unclear. Your guess is as good as mine as to why players perform better in the presence of greatness, but it's a common theme across sports. At a bare minimum it imbues them with confidence to realize their potential, which they may not have done otherwise. Chido is a fine example. He was seen as disposable to Dallas, signed here as a CB2, and now he's a "top-rated" CB1. It's ludicrous. Was he always this good or did take a mysterious leap in the middle of his career?

Logan is an interesting case. His PFF grade for this year is just 54, yet you're saying yourself that he's taken "a giant leap" and become a "big playmaker". Can both be true? Maybe. But would we be describing in the same terms if Burrow had gotten hurt again and Allen had replaced him? I doubt it. We'd be talking about him as a 54 grade. Neither playmaker nor "giant leap" would apply despite holding everything about his performance constant.

Mixon is another fantastic example. He hadn't had a great year since 2018. That could be due to a lot of factors (including Pollack) but is it a coincidence that he's gone all-league alongside a stud quarterback? Maybe, maybe not. Is it a coincidence that he rushed himself back from injury this year and not last? Maybe, maybe not. But these are all the kinds of intangibles that I'm talking about. I'm not saying they're all linked to Burrow. But I'm also not saying they're not. The culture of the team has undergone a facelift and I think if you ran a survey of the players, they would give you a pretty clear indication of who's responsible for that. 

As for 8-8 and 7-9 being Super Bowl contenders... uhh no. That can only be said in hindsight. 8-8 and 7-9 is by definition mediocre. Marvin Lewis could speak to that at length.  

People should stop acting as if the Lewis era didn't help the Taylor era,frankly speaking if it wasn't for the Lewis era the foundation for the Taylor era would have never been in place..

Marvin took over a franchise where players were literally sharing jockstraps..

(02-04-2022, 12:04 AM)Roland Wrote:  That double whiff on our "bookend tackles of the future" combined with letting Whitworth go was really the death of the Marvin Lewis era. 

There were other factors, but I agree 100% that that was the biggest nail in the coffin.

Elite QBs don't make players better with magical auras or anything like that.  It is all about their play on the field.

Receivers... too obvious to explain.

Running backs....Better passing game forces safeties deep and loosens up running game.  Also teams in the lead run the ball more.

O-line...Obviously a QB who makes quicker reads and gets rid of the ball faster can make an O-line look much better.  But also playing with a lead forces opposing defenders to respect the run instead of just pinning back their ears and rushing the passer

D-line...Playing with the lead allows them to pin back their ears and rush the passer more than respecting the run.

DBs.... Opposing QBs playing from behind have to take more chances and force more bad passes.


QB is by far the single most important position on the team.  Upgrading that position increases a teams ability to win.  And when a team is winning and playing with the lead more often it makes EVERY player look better.

(02-03-2022, 11:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Most teams ask their franchise guy his opinion. That doesn't mean Joey B should get more credit than Tobin or Zac for the guys on this roster. We're being foolish if we believe it was contructed by Burrow. I'm sure he has some sway, but the guys they're showing him, I'm pretty sure they already have an opinion on, and only a strong reaction by Joe would change that opinion.

A lot don't. That's why you see frustrated QB's demanding trades. See Aaron Rodgers for example.