(04-07-2022, 09:21 AM)Southpaw Frerotte Wrote: So you’re using his longevity against him.  Haters are just gonna hate I suppose.

He deffinetly doesn't suck, I just don't like LeBron lol... Dudes a physical specimen. I wonder what kind of tight end he woulda made in football??

(04-07-2022, 04:23 PM)Tony Wrote: He deffinetly doesn't suck, I just don't like LeBron lol... Dudes a physical specimen. I wonder what kind of tight end he woulda made in football??

A petulant one.

(04-07-2022, 10:16 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Joe B is cool, but the NBA just sux in general.

(04-07-2022, 12:14 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Couldn't agree more !

The color green is cool, but the color yellow just sucks in general.

I understand this is not a tell all. But just met with a landscaper born and raised in Florida. I was wearing my Bengals t-shirt. He said I love Joe Burrow, I can't see how anyone can root against that guy. He is a huge Joe B fan

Men love him and women adore him. Anyone have kids stories, I have a hunch a lot of kids in the US are wearing Joe B. jerseys or will be soon.

(03-25-2022, 10:16 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I don't know. He's rarely talked about in my market. No commercials.

I predict that he becomes hated like Brady outside of the fan base. I like his confidence, but other fan bases won't.

There are just a bunch of marquee QBs especially in the AFC.

Spot on. I like Joe, and tbh I think he's ultimately a good dude, but if I were on the outside, his outfits and some of the things he does would 100% make me cringe and probably dislike the guy.

(04-07-2022, 09:40 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Lebron is better than Kobe and Bird in nearly every single way imaginable. Bird has him on shooting, but that's about it. Kobe has no argument (RIP, loved the guy). Lebron is better in nearly every single per-possession metric than these guys. When Lebron has the ball in his hands, his teams did better than Kobe's or Bird's. When Lebron shoots, he produces better results than Kobe or Bird. When Lebron passes, more of those passes turn into points than Kobe or Bird. In his prime, he was a better defender than either of those guys. He is just all around better. 

Oh boy.

Bird was a better shooter, rebounder and frankly a better passer than LeBron. More clutch by a country mile. Plus he never gave half effort on defense (to put it kindly) like LeBron has for at least 4 years now. Bron should be embarrassed by the lack of effort he's shown with the Lakers.

LeBron has Bird on athleticism and longevity.

Seriously. Google Bird's official NBA mixtape. It's probably the most impressive mixtape ever, and the NBA did a fantastic job with all of them. Bird's court vision was probably rivaled only by Magic.

(04-07-2022, 09:40 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Lebron is better than Kobe and Bird in nearly every single way imaginable. Bird has him on shooting, but that's about it. Kobe has no argument (RIP, loved the guy). Lebron is better in nearly every single per-possession metric than these guys. When Lebron has the ball in his hands, his teams did better than Kobe's or Bird's. When Lebron shoots, he produces better results than Kobe or Bird. When Lebron passes, more of those passes turn into points than Kobe or Bird. In his prime, he was a better defender than either of those guys. He is just all around better. 

Oh boy.

Bird was a better shooter, rebounder and frankly a better passer than LeBron. More clutch by a country mile. Plus he never gave half effort on defense (to put it kindly) like LeBron has for at least 4 years now. Bron should be embarrassed by the lack of effort he's shown with the Lakers.

LeBron has Bird on athleticism and longevity. Probably on defense when Bron was younger, although (iirc) Bird has more defensive team selections.

Seriously. Google Bird's official NBA mixtape. It's probably the most impressive mixtape ever, and the NBA did a fantastic job with all of them. Bird's court vision was probably rivaled only by Magic.

I'd probably put Kobe above Bron too. 5 rings. That intense drive that Bron lacks. If I need someone to drop 40 in a playoff game, put the team on his back and take the last shot, I'm taking Kobe 100 times out of 100 over Bron.

(03-28-2022, 11:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: He does not suck.

He is #7 on the career assist list

And he takes as many, if not more, "game winning shots" than any other player.

So pretty much everything you said was 100% false.

1. When the ball is always in your hands, you're going to get assists. LeBron has played a very long time. So of course his all-time total is going to be high. That said, he's only averaged double digit assists exactly once in his career.

So I would say his passing is a smidge overrated. If you were judging him purely as a passer, would you put him over Stockton? Magic? Kidd? CP3? I wouldn't put him in that class at all. He mainly gets assists by driving the paint and kicking to an open guy.

Also worth noting that the NBA has been much more liberal on what constitutes an assist during Bron's era. Bron can make a simple pass to AD, have him make 2 moves and drive the paint well defended, and Bron still gets an assist.

2. It's hard to find up to date comprehensive info on LeBron's game winning shots, and some sources try to tweak what constitutes a "game winner".

To me (and most), a game winner should be a shot that gets you the lead and happens within 5 seconds of the game ending.

On such shots, LeBron went a ridiculously bad 5/47 from 2006 to 2016. I imagine it didn't improve much in the past 5-6 years, as Bron is regularly shown bricking clutch shots or deferring to teammates.

https://mobile.twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/status/703425374294769664?lang=en

(04-07-2022, 12:48 PM)BengalRed Wrote: I saw Jimmy Garoppolo in a Subway commercial. Of course he's been around a lot longer than Joe and he's good looking. I think it's just a matter of time before Joe pops up in a commercial.

He's got an online ad out there somewhere. 
Popped up in a game i play and while watching it.. i was like ???? Joe! I saw it shortly after the SB.

(04-09-2022, 04:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: On such shots, LeBron went a ridiculously bad 5/47 from 2006 to 2016.

I don't care much about basketball, but damn, that's like Marvin-Lewis-in-Primetime bad. (Maybe worse?)

(04-09-2022, 04:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't care much about basketball, but damn, that's like Marvin-Lewis-in-Primetime bad. (Maybe worse?)

I guess it's better than ML in the playoffs.

(04-09-2022, 04:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't care much about basketball, but damn, that's like Marvin-Lewis-in-Primetime bad. (Maybe worse?)

I'll be honest, I didn't think it'd be quite that bad when I looked it up.

Those types of shots are typically low % because defense tightens up and you often have to jack up a bad shot...but shooting a shade over .100 is amazing levels of bad.

(04-09-2022, 03:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Oh boy.

Bird was a better shooter, rebounder and frankly a better passer than LeBron. More clutch by a country mile. Plus he never gave half effort on defense (to put it kindly) like LeBron has for at least 4 years now. Bron should be embarrassed by the lack of effort he's shown with the Lakers.

LeBron has Bird on athleticism and longevity.

Seriously. Google Bird's official NBA mixtape. It's probably the most impressive mixtape ever, and the NBA did a fantastic job with all of them. Bird's court vision was probably rivaled only by Magic.

Bird was a better shooter and rebounder (I neglected to mention rebounding, and I agree that Bird has Bron on rebounding) but that's it. I just have to disagree on passing. I'm not sure it is even arguable, to be honest. This is no disrespect to Bird, what makes Lebron the player that he is, is his passing ability and basketball IQ. Usage rates are higher today than they were in Bird's time so the raw numbers favor Lebron, but on a per-pass basis, they also favor Lebron. They favor him significantly. 

From a career standpoint, Lebron has an assist percentage of 36.4%. This means that 36.4% of his teammates buckets came via an assist from him. Larry Bird's assist percentage is 24.7%. We are talking about a 47% gap between Lebron and Bird's assist percentage. Larry Bird's BEST season in assist % (28.9%) would almost be Lebron's worst season. The only season where Lebron had less than a 28.9% was his rookie season. His passes are converted to buckets at a significantly higher ratio because he is a better passer. This was true even early in his career before offenses really started taking off, but that isn't even really an argument that needs addressed. Offenses in Bird's era were scoring at a pace that is very similar to today's game. They were high flying offenses with outputs similar to the NBA in 2018. Bird never ranked higher than 22nd in assist % throughout his career whereas Lebron has consistently been in the top ten with several top five appearances, leading the league once. 

Saying that Bird was only rivaled by Magic is pretty ludicrous. Magic beats Lebron's assist percentage by nearly 13%, and beats Bird's by 66%. Magic is one of the greatest passers of all time. Bird was never even the best passer for a single season. The only player who was consistently beating Magic Johnson in assist percentage during his career was John Stockton - Magic finished top three seven times, and finished #2 five times. Every time he lost to John Stockton. Regarding clutchness, you're right. It is very hard to find any reliable sources. I can only find raw numbers, which isn't helpful. Bird had four game winning shots and Lebron has seven, but I can't find any percentages. I also don't like isolating "clutch" to just buzzerbeaters. I would like fourth quarter metrics when the team has entered the fourth quarter losing, but I don't know where I could find those, if I even could. 

And just to get ahead of it, I have watched quite a bit of Bird. This is a discussion I have had a few times. I'm not just pulling up a spreadsheet here. I just find the numbers talk to be more direct and to the point. It is fact based. The eye test doesn't show me Bird being a better passer, or better overall player than Lebron. 

(04-09-2022, 09:03 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Bird was a better shooter and rebounder (I neglected to mention rebounding, and I agree that Bird has Bron on rebounding) but that's it. I just have to disagree on passing. I'm not sure it is even arguable, to be honest. This is no disrespect to Bird, what makes Lebron the player that he is, is his passing ability and basketball IQ. Usage rates are higher today than they were in Bird's time so the raw numbers favor Lebron, but on a per-pass basis, they also favor Lebron. They favor him significantly. 

From a career standpoint, Lebron has an assist percentage of 36.4%. This means that 36.4% of his teammates buckets came via an assist from him. Larry Bird's assist percentage is 24.7%. We are talking about a 47% gap between Lebron and Bird's assist percentage. Larry Bird's BEST season in assist % (28.9%) would almost be Lebron's worst season. The only season where Lebron had less than a 28.9% was his rookie season. His passes are converted to buckets at a significantly higher ratio because he is a better passer. This was true even early in his career before offenses really started taking off, but that isn't even really an argument that needs addressed. Offenses in Bird's era were scoring at a pace that is very similar to today's game. They were high flying offenses with outputs similar to the NBA in 2018. Bird never ranked higher than 22nd in assist % throughout his career whereas Lebron has consistently been in the top ten with several top five appearances, leading the league once. 

Saying that Bird was only rivaled by Magic is pretty ludicrous. Magic beats Lebron's assist percentage by nearly 13%, and beats Bird's by 66%. Magic is one of the greatest passers of all time. Bird was never even the best passer for a single season. The only player who was consistently beating Magic Johnson in assist percentage during his career was John Stockton - Magic finished top three seven times, and finished #2 five times. Every time he lost to John Stockton. Regarding clutchness, you're right. It is very hard to find any reliable sources. I can only find raw numbers, which isn't helpful. Bird had four game winning shots and Lebron has seven, but I can't find any percentages. I also don't like isolating "clutch" to just buzzerbeaters. I would like fourth quarter metrics when the team has entered the fourth quarter losing, but I don't know where I could find those, if I even could. 

And just to get ahead of it, I have watched quite a bit of Bird. This is a discussion I have had a few times. I'm not just pulling up a spreadsheet here. I just find the numbers talk to be more direct and to the point. It is fact based. The eye test doesn't show me Bird being a better passer, or better overall player than Lebron. 

1. Again...the NBA has been much more liberal with what constitutes an assist in the modern era. You can pass to a guy, have him make moves to beat a defender, and the assist is still rewarded. This wasn't the case in previous eras.

2. It's not an apples to apples comparison. The Celtics had point guards, while LeBron has almost always ran the LeBron system and brought the ball up. Hence more assists. That said, your folly is blindly associating passing skill with assist totals.

My eyes see better court vision and a far more impressive highlight reel with Bird. Both in passing and general court vision. So we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Which is fine. Imo, Bird likely would've been a point forward in this era, and his assists would've gone way up as a result.

3. I provided a good link from ESPN which gave 10 years worth of data. Bron sucks on clutch shots. If you can't even admit that Bird is more clutch than Bron, that tells me all I need to know.

I also strongly disagree with you on what constitutes a clutch shot. You want to include entire 4th quarters? Or something close? Nothing is more clutch than the game being on the line with 5 seconds left. Nothing. So that's what I look at, and most people who aren't trying to defend their guy.

Be honest, are you a Cavs or LeBron fan?

One last thing on Bird/Kobe/LeBron: I have no problem with anyone putting LeBron ahead of those two. I don't particularly agree, but I'd have no problem with that. When I have a problem is when people disrespect a pair of top 8 players ever by suggesting LeBron is in a completely different class...which is a terrible and disrespectful take.

Now, probably way to late for this, but just a reminder that this is a Joey B thread...and yes I think Joe is one of the future stars of the league. Somebody has to fill the shoes of Brady, Brees, Ben, etc.

(04-10-2022, 01:32 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Again...the NBA has been much more liberal with what constitutes an assist in the modern era. You can pass to a guy, have him make moves to beat a defender, and the assist is still rewarded. This wasn't the case in previous eras.

2. It's not an apples to apples comparison. The Celtics had point guards, while LeBron has almost always ran the LeBron system and brought the ball up. Hence more assists. That said, your folly is blindly associating passing skill with assist totals.

My eyes see better court vision and a far more impressive highlight reel with Bird. Both in passing and general court vision. So we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Which is fine. Imo, Bird likely would've been a point forward in this era, and his assists would've gone way up as a result.

3. I provided a good link from ESPN which gave 10 years worth of data. Bron sucks on clutch shots. If you can't even admit that Bird is more clutch than Bron, that tells me all I need to know.

I also strongly disagree with you on what constitutes a clutch shot. You want to include entire 4th quarters? Or something close? Nothing is more clutch than the game being on the line with 5 seconds left. Nothing. So that's what I look at, and most people who aren't trying to defend their guy.

Be honest, are you a Cavs or LeBron fan?

I'll be honest, I didn't even see the link. For some reason, the orange link blended in with your sig for me at first glance and I didn't register it. I think that "clutch" is at least more encompassing than the final five seconds. If a player goes off for the final three minutes of a game but misses a shot in the final five seconds, does that mean he is not clutch? I don't think so. That's really what I am getting at. I also think to suck, you have to have an idea of what you're comparing to. I don't know how Bird, or anyone else has performed in the same situations. The statline looks absolutely awful, but it would help to at least have context to see how other guys performed. I would assume that Lebron was easily worse, but I don't know. I would also be curious to see how that stat has changed since 2016. 

In the end, agree to disagree, that's fine with me. And no, I am not a fan of either the Cavs or Lebron. I live in Oklahoma and I am a staunch Thunder fan. 

(04-10-2022, 01:53 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I'll be honest, I didn't even see the link. For some reason, the orange link blended in with your sig for me at first glance and I didn't register it. I think that "clutch" is at least more encompassing than the final five seconds. If a player goes off for the final three minutes of a game but misses a shot in the final five seconds, does that mean he is not clutch? I don't think so. That's really what I am getting at. I also think to suck, you have to have an idea of what you're comparing to. I don't know how Bird, or anyone else has performed in the same situations. The statline looks absolutely awful, but it would help to at least have context to see how other guys performed. I would assume that Lebron was easily worse, but I don't know. I would also be curious to see how that stat has changed since 2016. 

In the end, agree to disagree, that's fine with me. And no, I am not a fan of either the Cavs or Lebron. I live in Oklahoma and I am a staunch Thunder fan. 

Just want to say I didn't mean that as an insult. Just know a lot of people on here are from Ohio and have bias. But yeah...I think if a guy busts his tail through the 4th and misses the game winner, he's not clutch.

Look at it this way, Randy Bullock hit a ton of 4th quarter kicks for us in close games. Would anyone on here say he's clutch? Probably not, because he didn't hit the most important ones. Not often enough, anyway.

But yeah, glad to talk hoops even if we don't agree.

(04-10-2022, 01:58 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Just want to say I didn't mean that as an insult. Just know a lot of people on here are from Ohio and have bias. But yeah...I think if a guy busts his tail through the 4th and misses the game winner, he's not clutch.

Look at it this way, Randy Bullock hit a ton of 4th quarter kicks for us in close games. Would anyone on here say he's clutch? Probably not, because he didn't hit the most important ones. Not often enough, anyway.

But yeah, glad to talk hoops even if we don't agree.

No insult taken. I’ve ran into plenty of people who will bend over backward to defend their guy. I have probably done it in the past with Russell Westbrook. It’s a valid question, probably a good one too.

Always fun to talk b-ball. My second favorite sport, it’s a great change up from football.

(04-09-2022, 04:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2. It's hard to find up to date comprehensive info on LeBron's game winning shots, and some sources try to tweak what constitutes a "game winner".

To me (and most), a game winner should be a shot that gets you the lead and happens within 5 seconds of the game ending.

On such shots, LeBron went a ridiculously bad 5/47 from 2006 to 2016. I imagine it didn't improve much in the past 5-6 years, as Bron is regularly shown bricking clutch shots or deferring to teammates.

https://mobile.twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/status/703425374294769664?lang=en

Yeah, and there have been times where I have seen Lebron pass on taking a game-winning shot, and it's not like he was driving, drew a double-team, and kicked it to another player because it was more like he dribbling at the top of the key with 10 seconds left and just passed it to a guy on the wing and hoped that he'd make a move.

Lebron doesn't, and never did, have the "it" factor.

Burrow has already proven that he can take over the game and lead his team to (at least) a split second block from winning a title. 

(04-02-2022, 05:53 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Lebron is 100 assists away from being 6th all time, people also say he's one of the best passers of all time. He's probably going to have the NBA record for scoring while being a pass first focus. Not like Kobe and MJ who were score first.

It's an easy comparison to make between Lebron and burrow, home state kid winning a championship for the city/state after a long time. Since I live in CLE I know what that feels like, it would be a similar feeling for Bengals fans. Just need 1 and whatever happens after that, doesn't matter as much.

MJ was not a shoot first player. That’s LeBron


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk