(05-01-2022, 04:28 PM)Stewy Wrote: Yeah and the coaches who have forgotten more about football than you and those who think like you will ever know, disagree.  

You, layman armchair GM are not convincing at all and repeating the same arguments, backed by no more evidence than your opinion, is laughable.

 Yet they trotted out that shit OL last year and tried to tell the fans it was good, as they did the year before, when most everyone in the world knew it would be trash.  Last year could have just as easily been a disaster had Burrow been injured once again on the record number of sacks he took last year.

(05-01-2022, 07:55 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote:  Yet they trotted out that shit OL last year and tried to tell the fans it was good, as they did the year before, when most everyone in the world knew it would be trash.  Last year could have just as easily been a disaster had Burrow been injured once again on the record number of sacks he took last year.

Yeah.  So what?  This isn't last year and they've done a huge overhaul of the line.  So your point is meaningless.

People have no understanding of subtly.  Of course they were going to say they were satisfied with the line.  Do you honestly expect the coaches to stand in front of the press and the fans and the line sucked last year?  Only a coach who is a fool and who wants to lose his locker room would throw his players under the bus.  

Even after the SB when reporters brought up , Taylor wouldn't bag on them, but said "they got us here."  So many clueless folks went off on that....the chicken littles came out in droves.  And what did we do?  We signed 3 new quality or better starters, which says two things....#1 The FO isn't clueless and #2 - Zach is not going to throw players under the bus regardless of performance.  And if you can't learn to read between those lines then you and others like you are going to be upset.....a lot.

(05-01-2022, 07:50 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think the reason they focused this draft on defense, and why I suspect we may be looking at primarily defensive drafts for the next few years, is because I believe (and am hopeful) that the coaching staff and front office intend to keep Burrow, Chase and Higgins together for their entire careers, or at least their prime years. We've already seen what has happened to the WR market this off season. We went from 3 wide receivers contracts with an AAV of 20M or more (Hopkins, Allen, Cooper) to a whopping 9 (Hill, Adams, Hopkins, Diggs, Moore, Allen, Godwin, Cooper, Williams) with many more entering the 15M+ range as well, including some arguably overpaid receivers like Golladay, Kirk, Woods, Thomas, Cooks, Robinson and Sutton. 

If those players are worth 20 or 15M+ dollars, I would think that Higgins would be worth AT LEAST 20 to 25M next off season. I would also hazard a guess that, as the salary cap continues to grow, Chase will cost 30M to 35M per year by 2024. And Burrow? I am betting by the time we extend him in 2023, he'll cost us at least 50M per year, if not more.

So, if they intend to keep these 3 players let's say they do some cap magic or maybe get one of them (or perhaps all of them) to take a hometown discount to keep the band together, let's say those 3 players cost us 100M per year in cap space.

Safety is already one of the least valued positions in the NFL, as evidenced by the steep drop off in franchise tag prices from OL to S (Safety is 4th lowest at 12.91M per year, above only RB, TE and K. OL is priced at 16.66M). So, given the emphasis on offense coming in the next few years' extensions, as well as the requirement to eventually re-sign other defensive players like Logan Wilson, Chidobe Awuzie and DJ Reader in the next 2 seasons, would it be better to re-sign Bates for what he wants (presumably, he wants top market money, which would be 16 to 18 million dollars per year, if not 20M by the time next off season rolls around) but lose one of our other young stars? Or should we try to replace the lower value positions in the draft and sign the more "cornerstone" type players to long term deals?

Case in point, if signing Bates meant letting Higgins walk, I say no. I'd rather keep Higgins than Bates. If that's the choice that our front office is being faced with, I'm glad they are taking steps towards allowing Bates to leave in order to keep our offensive core together.

I get what your saying and maybe that is the situation. I like Bates and would want to keep him but not at a price that will handcuff us going forward. I'm fine drafting his potential replacement and certainly the way the draft fell. But drafting 2 safeties I would probably rather of let him walk and used that money to sign Tretter to a couple year deal. But I guess you don't know how the draft is gonna shake out. Another reason I would've rather drafted a LB at some point is depth this year but also are we gonna be forced to choose between Pratt and Wilson. If so I'd go Wilson and maybe Pratt is cheap but if not you have the replacement. 

 On the note of offense and the receiver market. I don't think we resign Higgins. If his stats improve which I'm assuming they will continue to improve. He will be asking big money. After this last season I think the offense is gonna revolve around Burrow and Chase. Then just continue to add receivers thru the draft.

I liked the draft and feel our team is pretty much set, so this draft should've been more about drafting for future needs, such as Bates or Bell leaving.

That said, I won't rip OP or anyone for thinking differently. We all have drafts we don't like afterward, and we've all been right or wrong on certain picks.

(05-01-2022, 08:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I liked the draft and feel our team is pretty much set, so this draft should've been more about drafting for future needs, such as Bates or Bell leaving.

That said, I won't rip OP or anyone for thinking differently. We all have drafts we don't like afterward, and we've all been right or wrong on certain picks.

Oh be all lucid and adulty and stuff why don't ya!!?!!?

I'll stop picking on the negative comments too.  *kicks a rock*  

(05-01-2022, 10:07 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I agree with Whatever, we got significantly better this year (and big picture the ravens didn’t improve much at all when factoring in their losses). Browns are the only divisional team to get significantly better, and that’s if Watson plays. The chargers and raiders got better for sure, as did the bills and broncos. Chiefs got worse.

Our oline is way better than last year, with more depth and high end starters. This is vital when considering how good our competition is in the afc. Our secondary has a lot more depth, versatility, intelligence, speed, and tackling ability. This was vital with the raiders getting Adams, and the strong rush attacks our division has.

My only complaint would be our pass rush didn’t improve at all. Hopefully Ossai can stay healthy and contribute this year. But we just didn’t have the draft position to draft a good pass rusher—unless you wanted us to use our first round pick on a guy with a torn Achilles.

I think next year will be a more balanced draft with picks along the dline, wideout, secondary, tight end, and so forth. But we needed to go oline heavy in free agency and secondary heavy in this draft. We weren’t in good draft position to draft oline so what we did in FA was vital.

×3 for the most part. The only position that got worse was DT with the loss of Ogunjobi, and we are worlds better on the o-line. Secondary depth as well. You also have to factor who the Ravens and Browns lost, and I'm not sold on the Steelers' QB room. My hands are bigger than Pickett's...and yes I literally measured lol.

(05-01-2022, 08:19 PM)Stewy Wrote: Oh be all lucid and adulty and stuff why don't ya!!?!!?

I'll stop picking on the negative comments too.  *kicks a rock*  

My bad dude.

I'll join in. Hey OP, your opinions are terrible! You must be a Steelers fan!!!

Better?

(05-01-2022, 08:10 PM)Stewy Wrote: Yeah.  So what?  This isn't last year and they've done a huge overhaul of the line.  So your point is meaningless.

People have no understanding of subtly.  Of course they were going to say they were satisfied with the line.  Do you honestly expect the coaches to stand in front of the press and the fans and the line sucked last year?  Only a coach who is a fool and who wants to lose his locker room would throw his players under the bus.  

Even after the SB when reporters brought up , Taylor wouldn't bag on them, but said "they got us here."  So many clueless folks went off on that....the chicken littles came out in droves.  And what did we do?  We signed 3 new quality or better starters, which says two things....#1 The FO isn't clueless and #2 - Zach is not going to throw players under the bus regardless of performance.  And if you can't learn to read between those lines then you and others like you are going to be upset.....a lot.

So after going with the line and having your #1 pick QB get his knee shredded it's not time to fix the line. But when you do the minimum then give up a league high in sacks and give up what I can only imagine is a post season record. While that same #1 QB is hobbled multiple times along the way. The fans that bought into that coaching staff are stupid for listening to their lies but also stupid for questioning the draft?

They brought in 3 guys while releasing one and drafting a 4th rounder. Not saying that's not good and I'm not excited for this team. But I think we could do more and probably owe Burrow more after the beating we've allowed him to take after the last 2 seasons. Maybe the way the draft fell is out of our hands but we shouldn't just accept that as a team. We should be signing someone like Tretter or possibly making a trade with a team. 

(05-01-2022, 08:26 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: My bad dude.

I'll join in. Hey OP, your opinions are terrible! You must be a Steelers fan!!!

Better?

No.  I was being serious.  Im going to be a good boy.  :)

(05-01-2022, 08:49 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: So after going with the line and having your #1 pick QB get his knee shredded it's not time to fix the line. But when you do the minimum then give up a league high in sacks and give up what I can only imagine is a post season record. While that same #1 QB is hobbled multiple times along the way. The fans that bought into that coaching staff are stupid for listening to their lies but also stupid for questioning the draft?

They brought in 3 guys while releasing one and drafting a 4th rounder. Not saying that's not good and I'm not excited for this team. But I think we could do more and probably owe Burrow more after the beating we've allowed him to take after the last 2 seasons. Maybe the way the draft fell is out of our hands but we shouldn't just accept that as a team. We should be signing someone like Tretter or possibly making a trade with a team. 

I don't see it being about raw numbers.  They replaced 2 backups and 1 questionable starters with 3 good to excellent starters.  They still have a lot of picks from last year that yes mostly looked fair to terrible and mostly questionable, but an OLine is a TEAM in and of itself.  It requires leadership and it requires them to recognize assignments and work together pre-snap.  We have not had that OLine leader since Whit left.  And unlike a chain, an OLine is not just as good as it's weakest link.  

Carman will benefit greatly by being surrounded by 4 quality veterans, as opposed to playing beside a bunch of backups.  They will point things out he might have missed otherwise, help him recognize stunts and assignments, help him to work together with the LT and C to cover stud DT's and DE's.  

Jonah will likely elevate his game for the same reason because the other veterans will increase his awareness, recognition and confidence.  Jonah has not had the savvy Vet to help him elevate or refine his game.

There are still several 1 year players from last year that are going to learn dramatically from working inside a quality OLine room.  All of the above are the reasons why I am not worried that we have not done more with the OLine.  Because it isn't about bodies, but overall all elevation of quality, teamwork, brotherhood with huge chips on their shoulders to protect the franchise.

I think everyone going to be surprised by how good this OLine can be.

(05-01-2022, 09:14 PM)Stewy Wrote: I don't see it being about raw numbers.  They replaced 2 backups and 1 questionable starters with 3 good to excellent starters.  They still have a lot of picks from last year that yes mostly looked fair to terrible and mostly questionable, but an OLine is a TEAM in and of itself.  It requires leadership and it requires them to recognize assignments and work together pre-snap.  We have not had that OLine leader since Whit left.  And unlike a chain, an OLine is not just as good as it's weakest link.  

Carman will benefit greatly by being surrounded by 4 quality veterans, as opposed to playing beside a bunch of backups.  They will point things out he might have missed otherwise, help him recognize stunts and assignments, help him to work together with the LT and C to cover stud DT's and DE's.  

Jonah will likely elevate his game for the same reason because the other veterans will increase his awareness, recognition and confidence.  Jonah has not had the savvy Vet to help him elevate or refine his game.

There are still several 1 year players from last year that are going to learn dramatically from working inside a quality OLine room.  All of the above are the reasons why I am not worried that we have not done more with the OLine.  Because it isn't about bodies, but overall all elevation of quality, teamwork, brotherhood with huge chips on their shoulders to protect the franchise.

I think everyone going to be surprised by how good this OLine can be.

I am very happy with the guys we signed, but why settle for just being good when we are a couple pieces away from being great.  What happens if Carman doesn't improve or his back injury doesn't get better.  We are putting a lot of faith in a guy that hasn't earned it.  And we don't really have a great backup plan.

(05-01-2022, 09:34 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: I am very happy with the guys we signed, but why settle for just being good when we are a couple pieces away from being great.  What happens if Carman doesn't improve or his back injury doesn't get better.  We are putting a lot of faith in a guy that hasn't earned it.  And we don't really have a great backup plan.

I cab guarantee you the coaches and FO are aware of this and are either not concerned due to positive medicals or they have a contingency.  

One doesn't show such great awareness as to the other oline needs and then close their eyes, spin around twice, hold their breath and hope thing workout with one guy.

(05-01-2022, 09:34 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: I am very happy with the guys we signed, but why settle for just being good when we are a couple pieces away from being great.  What happens if Carman doesn't improve or his back injury doesn't get better.  We are putting a lot of faith in a guy that hasn't earned it.  And we don't really have a great backup plan.

Who would you have drafted to plug in at LG?

(05-01-2022, 09:44 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Who would you have drafted to plug in at LG?

Spain is coming back

(05-01-2022, 08:49 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: So after going with the line and having your #1 pick QB get his knee shredded it's not time to fix the line. But when you do the minimum then give up a league high in sacks and give up what I can only imagine is a post season record. While that same #1 QB is hobbled multiple times along the way. The fans that bought into that coaching staff are stupid for listening to their lies but also stupid for questioning the draft?

They brought in 3 guys while releasing one and drafting a 4th rounder. Not saying that's not good and I'm not excited for this team. But I think we could do more and probably owe Burrow more after the beating we've allowed him to take after the last 2 seasons. Maybe the way the draft fell is out of our hands but we shouldn't just accept that as a team. We should be signing someone like Tretter or possibly making a trade with a team. 

I think you have to look around the league, specifically at KC, for those answers.  

KC won the SB in '19.  They then returned to the SB in '20 with a patchwork OL.  After losing in the SB in large part due to that OL, they sold out trying to build an elite unit and dumped a ton of cap dollars and draft picks into the position group.  However, they neglected their other position groups in the process and moved backwards as a team. 

For the Bengals, it's pretty simple to look at KC's mistakes and not repeat them.  They have tried to improve the OL, but they haven't drawn resources away from other position groups to do so.  

(05-01-2022, 09:45 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Spain is coming back

I wouldn’t mind it, but I’m not so sure. Feels like it would have already happened by now.

(05-01-2022, 07:50 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think the reason they focused this draft on defense, and why I suspect we may be looking at primarily defensive drafts for the next few years, is because I believe (and am hopeful) that the coaching staff and front office intend to keep Burrow, Chase and Higgins together for their entire careers, or at least their prime years. We've already seen what has happened to the WR market this off season. We went from 3 wide receivers contracts with an AAV of 20M or more (Hopkins, Allen, Cooper) to a whopping 9 (Hill, Adams, Hopkins, Diggs, Moore, Allen, Godwin, Cooper, Williams) with many more entering the 15M+ range as well, including some arguably overpaid receivers like Golladay, Kirk, Woods, Thomas, Cooks, Robinson and Sutton. 

If those players are worth 20 or 15M+ dollars, I would think that Higgins would be worth AT LEAST 20 to 25M next off season. I would also hazard a guess that, as the salary cap continues to grow, Chase will cost 30M to 35M per year by 2024. And Burrow? I am betting by the time we extend him in 2023, he'll cost us at least 50M per year, if not more.

So, if they intend to keep these 3 players let's say they do some cap magic or maybe get one of them (or perhaps all of them) to take a hometown discount to keep the band together, let's say those 3 players cost us 100M per year in cap space.

Safety is already one of the least valued positions in the NFL, as evidenced by the steep drop off in franchise tag prices from OL to S (Safety is 4th lowest at 12.91M per year, above only RB, TE and K. OL is priced at 16.66M). So, given the emphasis on offense coming in the next few years' extensions, as well as the requirement to eventually re-sign other defensive players like Logan Wilson, Chidobe Awuzie and DJ Reader in the next 2 seasons, would it be better to re-sign Bates for what he wants (presumably, he wants top market money, which would be 16 to 18 million dollars per year, if not 20M by the time next off season rolls around) but lose one of our other young stars? Or should we try to replace the lower value positions in the draft and sign the more "cornerstone" type players to long term deals?

Case in point, if signing Bates meant letting Higgins walk, I say no. I'd rather keep Higgins than Bates. If that's the choice that our front office is being faced with, I'm glad they are taking steps towards allowing Bates to leave in order to keep our offensive core together.

Yep... Not only would I rather keep Higgins than Bates; I'd rather keep Jonah. Jesse Bates may well be a top 3 safety in the league, but some other team can pay him as such. I don't like the way he's handled the situation either.

(05-01-2022, 09:59 PM)jason Wrote: Yep... Not only would I rather keep Higgins than Bates; I'd rather keep Jonah. Jesse Bates may well be a top 3 safety in the league, but some other team can pay him as such. I don't like the way he's handled the situation either.

I’m always going to take a WR or LT over a safety. Unless we’re talking the second coming of Ed Reed or something, and Bates ain’t that.

(05-01-2022, 09:14 PM)Stewy Wrote: I don't see it being about raw numbers.  They replaced 2 backups and 1 questionable starters with 3 good to excellent starters.  They still have a lot of picks from last year that yes mostly looked fair to terrible and mostly questionable, but an OLine is a TEAM in and of itself.  It requires leadership and it requires them to recognize assignments and work together pre-snap.  We have not had that OLine leader since Whit left.  And unlike a chain, an OLine is not just as good as it's weakest link.  

Carman will benefit greatly by being surrounded by 4 quality veterans, as opposed to playing beside a bunch of backups.  They will point things out he might have missed otherwise, help him recognize stunts and assignments, help him to work together with the LT and C to cover stud DT's and DE's.  

Jonah will likely elevate his game for the same reason because the other veterans will increase his awareness, recognition and confidence.  Jonah has not had the savvy Vet to help him elevate or refine his game.

There are still several 1 year players from last year that are going to learn dramatically from working inside a quality OLine room.  All of the above are the reasons why I am not worried that we have not done more with the OLine.  Because it isn't about bodies, but overall all elevation of quality, teamwork, brotherhood with huge chips on their shoulders to protect the franchise.

I think everyone going to be surprised by how good this OLine can be.

You may be right and I do agree with your logic. That's why I want a center to slide Karras to LG or just more of a proven left guard because I think that would help Jonah improve his play. I'm nervous about trusting Carman to develop and be penciled in as the starter trusting players will develop feels like what has gotten us into this mess in the first place. But there is a difference between hoping one player in one position improves and hoping 3 players on your Oline imrove.

I'd like for OP to look through the draft results and tell us who he'd have taken with each pick since he's so upset about the lack of depth that was added.

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks/