(05-19-2022, 09:46 AM)Stewy Wrote: I have no great love or dislike for Bates.  Not debating he turned it on during the SB.  Not debating he had a great 2020.  But a guy that is so emotional about his contract that he cannot separate business from the ball field, IS A PROBLEM.

That his contract would affect his play, AND then admitted it (I'm sure his agent wanted to smack him), is a HUGE red flag.  It's affecting him now.  He has no leverage in holding out during team activities, he cannot afford to NOT to sign his TAG because he wasn't making 1st rnd pick money to sock away the previous years, and he'll get fined thousands of dollars per day once mandatories start.  On top of that he's picking the wrong team to have money issues with in the first place.  The Bengals do not give in, period.  

Finally, if we sign him to a top 5 contract, what happens in 2 years when new money drops his contract out of the top 10?  His history says he's going to get grumpy, it'll get into his head and it will affect his play.  Bates needs to pull his head out of his ass and separate business from the playing field because he's developing a reputation that's going to follow him the rest of his career.

This is the post right here. Someone else may have said it as well, but I didn't go through the entire thread.

I like Bates a lot and want to keep him. However, admitting that you played poorly because you didn't get an extension is not a good look. Saying you weren't looking to be the highest paid safety and then saying you're willing to sit out instead of play on the tag is also not a good look. Obviously the guy needs to look out for himself. This is a physical sport and it could end at any time. Sign the tag, play your ass off, and get paid by someone next season. Go get the financial security you're looking for. Don't cost yourself money (fines) or build a negative reputation that will follow you.

I get both sides and both sides feel they are doing what's best for themselves. Unfortunately, Bates stands to lose more if he does sit out. I want him here but I understand if he has to leave to find what he wants. I wish him the best, but he needs to sign and play on the tag so he can try to cash in next year.

(05-19-2022, 09:36 AM)ochocincos Wrote: But yet his postseason PFF was 90.0 last year...

Bates admitted during the regular season last year that his contract situation was affecting him.
He was vastly underperforming during (at least) the first half of last regular season.
He then started turning it around, and he was a key factor in the Bengals making it to the Super Bowl.

It’s ironic that he’s in the situation because we’d basically have to sign him if he didn’t play so ass in the regular season.


Playing contract war with a guy on a down year is way different than playing contract war with a guy who just had an all pro year.

(05-19-2022, 09:46 AM)Stewy Wrote: I have no great love or dislike for Bates.  Not debating he turned it on during the SB.  Not debating he had a great 2020.  But a guy that is so emotional about his contract that he cannot separate business from the ball field, IS A PROBLEM.

That his contract would affect his play, AND then admitted it (I'm sure his agent wanted to smack him), is a HUGE red flag.  It's affecting him now.  He has no leverage in holding out during team activities, he cannot afford to NOT to sign his TAG because he wasn't making 1st rnd pick money to sock away the previous years, and he'll get fined thousands of dollars per day once mandatories start.  On top of that he's picking the wrong team to have money issues with in the first place.  The Bengals do not give in, period.  

Finally, if we sign him to a top 5 contract, what happens in 2 years when new money drops his contract out of the top 10?  His history says he's going to get grumpy, it'll get into his head and it will affect his play.  Bates needs to pull his head out of his ass and separate business from the playing field because he's developing a reputation that's going to follow him the rest of his career.

I don’t think he cares about his rep with fans. All his teammates want him paid. Our feelings don’t mean a thing if he plays on the tag and tears his Achilles in week 3 and never gets back to his peak form.


At this point someone has to leak a number. The way this is going i have to assume Bates is asking for 17+ million per or he’s asking for most of his contract to be guaranteed. Since i do not believe he’s asking for as much as Jamal Adams, i have to assume the amount of guaranteed money is the issue. If we had a 70 million dollar deal on the table it could be a situation where the last year of the deal could be voided or something.


Like SOMETHING is wrong with our offer. I feel like Bates is a very down to earth guy.

(05-19-2022, 09:46 AM)Stewy Wrote: I have no great love or dislike for Bates.  Not debating he turned it on during the SB.  Not debating he had a great 2020.  But a guy that is so emotional about his contract that he cannot separate business from the ball field, IS A PROBLEM.

That his contract would affect his play, AND then admitted it (I'm sure his agent wanted to smack him), is a HUGE red flag.  It's affecting him now.  He has no leverage in holding out during team activities, he cannot afford to NOT to sign his TAG because he wasn't making 1st rnd pick money to sock away the previous years, and he'll get fined thousands of dollars per day once mandatories start.  On top of that he's picking the wrong team to have money issues with in the first place.  The Bengals do not give in, period.  

Finally, if we sign him to a top 5 contract, what happens in 2 years when new money drops his contract out of the top 10?  His history says he's going to get grumpy, it'll get into his head and it will affect his play.  Bates needs to pull his head out of his ass and separate business from the playing field because he's developing a reputation that's going to follow him the rest of his career.

Not so sure on that.
He's accumulated $6.854 mill to date.
If he can't make it through a single season after having earned that much across just 4 years, that's a problem.

LeVeon Bell was able to make it through sitting out a year and he didn't have 1st round pick money either.
He signed a pretty good deal with NYJ after that, but he floundered out after a couple seasons there.

(05-19-2022, 10:27 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Not so sure on that.
He's accumulated $6.854 mill to date.
If he can't make it through a single season after having earned that much across just 4 years, that's a problem.

LeVeon Bell was able to make it through sitting out a year and he didn't have 1st round pick money either.
He signed a pretty good deal with NYJ after that, but he floundered out after a couple seasons there.

plus until he signs the Deal hes not offically under contract and not subjected to fines (at least to my understanding hes as much a bengal right now as you or me)

(05-19-2022, 10:16 AM)Housh Wrote: I don’t think he cares about his rep with fans. All his teammates want him paid. Our feelings don’t mean a thing if he plays on the tag and tears his Achilles in week 3 and never gets back to his peak form.


At this point someone has to leak a number. The way this is going i have to assume Bates is asking for 17+ million per or he’s asking for most of his contract to be guaranteed. Since i do not believe he’s asking for as much as Jamal Adams, i have to assume the amount of guaranteed money is the issue. If we had a 70 million dollar deal on the table it could be a situation where the last year of the deal could be voided or something.


Like SOMETHING is wrong with our offer. I feel like Bates is a very down to earth guy.

I think the reality is that none of us knows Bates and to try and come up with numbers based on the assumed personality of a guy we don't know isn't a good excercise.  

It's a difficult negotiation based on the up and down nature of Bates' play.  He was good as a rookie, mediocre in Year 2, elite in Year 3, sucked last year, and was elite in the playoffs.  Bates' camp is likely making the argument that he's proven he can play at an elite level and the Bengals' counterargument is that he doesn't actually play at an elite level most of the time and shouldn't be paid as if he does.

(05-19-2022, 10:45 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: plus until he signs the Deal hes not offically under contract and not subjected to fines (at least to my understanding hes as much a bengal right now as you or me)

I thought that was the case too.
The fines are only if you sign but still don't show up.

I know that if a player signs a franchise tag, teams have until July 15 deadline to sign the player to a long-term extension.
However, I'm not sure what the deadline is for Bates to sign the tag before he would become a FA.

If for some reason Bates doesn't play with the Bengals this year, the Bengals should repurpose (some of) that cap toward other upgrades on the team.

I'd 100% look to add at least one versatile veteran to the OL for depth. Just someone $4 mill or less.
Bengals can (and should) do this without needing Bates' tag $$, but they'd definitely have more room with the extra $12.9 mill to work with.

(05-19-2022, 12:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I thought that was the case too.
The fines are only if you sign but still don't show up.

I know that if a player signs a franchise tag, teams have until July 15 deadline to sign the player to a long-term extension.
However, I'm not sure what the deadline is for Bates to sign the tag before he would become a FA.

If for some reason Bates doesn't play with the Bengals this year, the Bengals should repurpose (some of) that cap toward other upgrades on the team.

I'd 100% look to add at least one versatile veteran to the OL for depth. Just someone $4 mill or less.
Bengals can (and should) do this without needing Bates' tag $$, but they'd definitely have more room with the extra $12.9 mill to work with.

Perhaps even a vet Oline and vet WR ?

(05-19-2022, 12:24 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Perhaps even a vet Oline and vet WR ?

Yes WR too. OL and WR.
I'd be doing this even if Bates signs his tag, but especially if he doesn't.

(05-19-2022, 12:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I thought that was the case too.
The fines are only if you sign but still don't show up.

I know that if a player signs a franchise tag, teams have until July 15 deadline to sign the player to a long-term extension.
However, I'm not sure what the deadline is for Bates to sign the tag before he would become a FA.

If for some reason Bates doesn't play with the Bengals this year, the Bengals should repurpose (some of) that cap toward other upgrades on the team.

I'd 100% look to add at least one versatile veteran to the OL for depth. Just someone $4 mill or less.
Bengals can (and should) do this without needing Bates' tag $$, but they'd definitely have more room with the extra $12.9 mill to work with.

Per league rules, a player has to be on a list that entitles him to full pay for 6 games in order to accrue a season.  Hypothetically speaking, Bates would only have to sign before the 12th game in order count this season and force the Bengals to burn one of their two FT years they can use on him.  

I think there's a very real possibility he sits out the season, though.  Reason being, he's stated he won't be there for OTA's or TC, which means the Bengals will be forced to prepare Hill to start in his place.  If he signs before the season starts, it's going to take him a few weeks to get back in football shape, especially if he's taking it easy during the off-season to avoid injury.  If Dax balls out, Bates may very well find himself in a reduced or even backup role, which would hurt his next contract a lot more than sitting out the season would.  

(05-18-2022, 04:41 PM)J24 Wrote: He was still a top 5 Safety in 2020. Also his missed tackles rate drastically improved in 2021.

He had 90 rating during the playoffs and was the key to the defenses turnaround in said playoffs.

True enough, if you want to pay him only for the Playoffs go right ahead. Not my money.

I just love the Dax Hill pick enough and don't like the Agents BS enough to move on in anyway that is best for the team and Jessie.

(05-19-2022, 02:02 AM)pulses Wrote: The Texans have a ton of cap space and plenty of draft capital and they need a FS badly. I'd bet we could get a couple of picks out of them....say a 2 and 4 and u can have him.

Probably just a dream but that would be fantastic or just getting something for him would be just fine too.

(05-19-2022, 09:00 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: he played poor most the year. until the playoffs...   Was he hurt? or just butthurt if the later send him on his way.

No doubt that is the question. I don't like it myself even though he played great in the Postseason, to let the lack of a contract get
in his head like that and affect his game to that extent is not a good sign in my eyes. Gives me pause especially now with his Agent
being a doosh. If it was me I would of told my Agent to back off and would of just signed the extension offered already.

I am sure it is extremely fair and you get to play on a team that should be a contender for a long time with Burrow.

(05-19-2022, 09:36 AM)ochocincos Wrote: But yet his postseason PFF was 90.0 last year...

Bates admitted during the regular season last year that his contract situation was affecting him.
He was vastly underperforming during (at least) the first half of last regular season.
He then started turning it around, and he was a key factor in the Bengals making it to the Super Bowl.

True if you want to pay him only cause of what he did in the SB run so be it. I think that is what he wants and we aren't going
to pay him that cause of his poor play in the regular season and his overall poor tackling his entire career. Dude has great range
though and that is rare, but Dax Hill makes him expendable even if he hasn't played an NFL down yet. He is way more pro ready
than Bates was coming out and is ten times the tackler with great range himself.

(05-19-2022, 09:46 AM)Stewy Wrote: I have no great love or dislike for Bates.  Not debating he turned it on during the SB.  Not debating he had a great 2020.  But a guy that is so emotional about his contract that he cannot separate business from the ball field, IS A PROBLEM.

That his contract would affect his play, AND then admitted it (I'm sure his agent wanted to smack him), is a HUGE red flag.  It's affecting him now.  He has no leverage in holding out during team activities, he cannot afford to NOT to sign his TAG because he wasn't making 1st rnd pick money to sock away the previous years, and he'll get fined thousands of dollars per day once mandatories start.  On top of that he's picking the wrong team to have money issues with in the first place.  The Bengals do not give in, period.  

Finally, if we sign him to a top 5 contract, what happens in 2 years when new money drops his contract out of the top 10?  His history says he's going to get grumpy, it'll get into his head and it will affect his play.  Bates needs to pull his head out of his ass and separate business from the playing field because he's developing a reputation that's going to follow him the rest of his career.

Great post Stewy, well said man.

Has anyone ever won a staring contest with Mike Brown? My best guess is Bates signs his tag, plays the season out and goes elsewhere next year. I don't believe Jessie and his agent are going to get what they think they deserve here, our front office seems to be fair when it comes to contracts, but they will not over pay. I believe the front office knows they have higher priorities down the road, hence, the way they used draft picks on the secondary this year. If the front office would've gave in to AJ Green's demands and gave him a long term deal, would we of had the money to sure up the oline like we did in free agency? The Bengal's may also be a little hesitant handing out a new deal, because of the Wayne's disaster.

(05-19-2022, 10:27 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Not so sure on that.
He's accumulated $6.854 mill to date.
If he can't make it through a single season after having earned that much across just 4 years, that's a problem.

LeVeon Bell was able to make it through sitting out a year and he didn't have 1st round pick money either.
He signed a pretty good deal with NYJ after that, but he floundered out after a couple seasons there.

LeVeon Bell had already played through one Tag in 2017 and banked 9.7 million dollars after his rookie contract.  He sat out the second tag.  BIG DIFFERENCE.

And cherry picking one case who was never the same after holding out, doesn't help your narrative, especially since, the post holdout results are a huge NEGATIVE vs. a positive.  Bell didn't play in 2018, signed (by the Jets) as the second highest plaid RB in 2019, was released in mid 2020 in what was a disaster for the Jets, and essentially after getting paid he barely broke 1000 total yards from scrimmage for the ENITRITY of the rest of his professional career.

I'd suggest finding an example that actually supports your arguments next time vs. working against your narrative.

(05-19-2022, 10:16 AM)Housh Wrote: I don’t think he cares about his rep with fans. All his teammates want him paid. Our feelings don’t mean a thing if he plays on the tag and tears his Achilles in week 3 and never gets back to his peak form.

I was speaking of his reputation among the teams.  What fans think don't matter.

Look what happened to Kapernick.  He became a problem and no one want to even consider him a backup.  Now there is a HUGE difference in the two situations, but if a player becomes enough of a problem and isn't an elite talent (which JB is not), Teams are going to stay away.

(05-19-2022, 09:51 AM)Stewy Wrote: Exactly.  And this is what the local media here is saying on top of Nick Cassario's actions to shed bad money, build talent and bring in cheap vets, until they finish their rebuild.  They are not going to bring in a 20mil/yr Vet in exchange for draft capitol, when they are going to be horrible and are paying their other vets league minimum on 1-2 year contracts.

@Pulses
Just because the lady across the ballroom has great legs and you think she needs a partner, doesn't mean she wants to dance with you.  The Texans have no interest in dancing with the likes of Bates for at least a couple years.

It wasn't my idea I saw it in a yahoo article and thought it was worth mentioning.

(05-19-2022, 02:15 PM)Stewy Wrote: LeVeon Bell had already played through one Tag in 2017 and banked 9.7 million dollars after his rookie contract.  He sat out the second tag.  BIG DIFFERENCE.

And cherry picking one case who was never the same after holding out, doesn't help your narrative, especially since, the post holdout results are a huge NEGATIVE vs. a positive.  Bell didn't play in 2018, signed (by the Jets) as the second highest plaid RB in 2019, was released in mid 2020 in what was a disaster for the Jets, and essentially after getting paid he barely broke 1000 total yards from scrimmage for the ENITRITY of the rest of his professional career.

I'd suggest finding an example that actually supports your arguments next time vs. working against your narrative.

How does the Bell situation not support my argument?

You just said so yourself that Bell became the 2nd HIGHEST PAID RB IN 2019.
He did that AFTER sitting out the year.

If Bates is concerned about having a good, multi-year contract in place even after sitting out a year being tagged, Bell is an example of getting that.
Bell falling off a cliff after signing his contract with the Jets and getting let go early doesn't mean Bates is going to do the same.
If Bates wants to take that gamble, that's on him.

(05-19-2022, 02:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: How does the Bell situation not support my argument?

You just said so yourself that Bell became the 2nd HIGHEST PAID RB IN 2019.
He did that AFTER sitting out the year.

If Bates is concerned about having a good, multi-year contract in place even after sitting out a year being tagged, Bell is an example of getting that.
Bell falling off a cliff after signing his contract with the Jets and getting let go early doesn't mean Bates is going to do the same.
If Bates wants to take that gamble, that's on him.

Right and Bell SUCKED after he got paid, which is a warning to Teams, which was my point.  While Bell is a positive example from Bates perspective, it is a horrible example from the Team and fans perspective.  However, as Bates dancing partners (the Bengals FO) aren't dumb or desperate (like the Jets were), Bell is a HUGE negative example in regard to Bates not signing the tag because the Bengals don't broker that BS.  

Bates can sit out all he wants, but the Bengals can tag him 3 times.  Bates might not play again until 2024 if he gets tagged twice and sits twice.  As a matter of fact, tagging him 3 times doesn't even get him to the 17 mil/yr people are speculating he wants.  Sitting out gives him almost no leverage, regardless of your singular and non-equivalent example.

And you conveniently ignored the fact that the Bell and Bates situations were entirely different.  Bell had already played through one tag banking 10 mil dollar.  Bates has not had that luxury of extra cash.  He's on the first tag....not the second.  Get it?  FIRST.  He hasn't banked an extra 10 mil.  The situations are DIFFERENT.

(05-19-2022, 02:48 PM)Stewy Wrote: Right and Bell SUCKED after he got paid, which is a warning to Teams, which was my point.  While Bell is a positive example from Bates perspective, it is a horrible example from the Team and fans perspective.  However, as Bates dancing partners (the Bengals FO) aren't dumb or desperate (like the Jets were), Bell is a HUGE negative example in regard to Bates not signing the tag because the Bengals don't broker that BS.  

Bates can sit out all he wants, but the Bengals can tag him 3 times.  Bates might not play again until 2024 if he gets tagged twice and sits twice.  As a matter of fact, tagging him 3 times doesn't even get him to the 17 mil/yr people are speculating he wants.  Sitting out gives him almost no leverage, regardless of your singular and non-equivalent example.

And you conveniently ignored the fact that the Bell and Bates situations were entirely different.  Bell had already played through one tag banking 10 mil dollar.  Bates has not had that luxury of extra cash.  He's on the first tag....not the second.  Get it?  FIRST.  He hasn't banked an extra 10 mil.  The situations are DIFFERENT.

I didn't ignore it.
I thought he was only tagged the once.
If I had any question on that, I would have looked it up before posting, but I thought I had it right.

Regardless, if someone has accumulated $6+ mill already, I wouldn't think they'll be hurting for money for a season if they sat out to remain healthy for their next contract.
Maybe they're living so extravagantly though that they would.

(05-19-2022, 02:51 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: right a second tag would not give him any increase if he never played the first one..

Are you sure about that?  I was just looking through franchise tag prices, and one of the things I read about the LeVeon Bell situation was that the Steelers didn't want to pay the or strangle their CAP with the 3rd TAG number which is 40% about the top 5 average.  If Bell didn't play under the 20% second tag bump, then why would they be concerned about the 40% bump on tag 3?  What am I missing?

In regard to safety, the numbers going through my head were as follows - 1st Tag - 12m/yr; 2nd Tag - 14.4m/yr; 3rd Tag - 17.2 m/yr:  Yes these numbers would obviously go up as the avg. increases per year, so the 2nd and 3rd tags would be worth more than these numbers.

So the 3rd Tag barely gets him to where he'd be by signing for (some have speculated this number) 17m.yr or even 15m/yr because if he sits out two years that's 26.5 mil lost.

And another thing to consider....if Bates sits out two tags, that two of his prime years gone.  He would have walked about from 27 mil guranteed, while likely turning down at least 15m/yr from the Bengals (a reasonable number).  He'll never get that money back.  It's money lost, due to age and years played.  He could sit two years and come out and sign a 5yr 100mil contract, but he'll never get a 3rd contract, and after not playing for two years, he'll find his market VERY thin.  More reasons why players do not have the leverage that some think they do.  Their clocks are ticking, constantly, and teams know it.

I feel as fans we don't appreciate the fact that these players lay it on the line every single week. 1 bad injury can ruin a career. Never fault a player trying to get their worth. Us franchising him may have cost him 30 million more in guaranteed money over his current contract. What would his value be if he tore an acl this year?