(07-02-2022, 11:29 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: People still talk about how you need to establish the running game to be successful passing, or that you need to have a good running game for the play action to be successful. Those things, along with 'less penalized teams are more successful' are all things that have been studied and found to not be true on an overall scale. 

Three of the top four most penalized teams made the playoffs. The fourth (Chargers) just missed the playoffs. The Bills and Chiefs were both in the top 8 most penalized teams. 

Colts, WFT, Broncos, Giants and Falcons were in the bottom 8 (least penalized) and didn't make the playoffs. 

You can make the argument that the Bengals and Rams were in the bottom 4 of most penalized teams and played in the SB. You can make claims in any set of statistics that are factually correct, but in a larger study, they don't make a significant correlation. 

The studies that have been done on penalties and winning show that, overall, there is no correlation. 

Outliers can be found in anything. 

I just don't understand how a Bengal fan who has watched us lose game after game because of penalties or lack of penalties
against the other team can say they have no correlation with winning or losing. Baffles my mind, there are hundreds of examples.

We wouldn't of made the Playoffs last year if we weren't as disciplined as we were, let alone won 3 games and went to the SB. 

Guarantee it.

We would be in the same boat as we were with no hope and being apathetic. Penalties are a much bigger deal than you and 
Fred make out. Careful who you tie your boat to Rfaulk lol

(07-02-2022, 11:51 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: It’s an element of a successful offensive football plain and simple.

Truth. Shows good coaching as well. The Raiders have been one of the most penalized teams of the last 2 decades.

There is a reason no matter how much talent they have they cannot win when it matters, they are undisciplined.

Some teams like the Steelers get away with it though, unless they play the Patriots and Brady.

Just my opinion. There may be no correlation between penalties and winning but I think a low amount of penalties also shows a more disciplined team. Very good teams can of course overcome lots of penalties especially if they are getting those penalties when they already have a substantial lead. But in my opinion less penalties is an example of a team that is more cohesive and disciplined. I don't know but they may be less likely to let the stress of a game situation lead them into causing an unnecessary penalty during a crucial situation. As Bengals fans we have certainly seen when dumb penalties at bad times have been costly. Then again fans of every team has seen that at one time or another. Those tend to get remembered a lot more than when a player gets a holding or PI for example when their team is up a bunch of points.

My opinion is that losing yards or giving up yards on a penalty is never helpful and the less times it happens benefits the team. It can be overcome but it certainly doesn't help.

Overall I think the Bengals having a low penalty count is good. It may not mean much according to stats but I still think it is a positive.

(07-02-2022, 01:03 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: Just my opinion.  There may be no correlation between penalties and winning but I think a low amount of penalties also shows a more disciplined team.  Very good teams can of course overcome lots of penalties especially if they are getting those penalties when they already have a substantial lead.   But in my opinion less penalties is an example of a team that is more cohesive and disciplined.  I don't know but they may be less likely to let the stress of a game situation lead them into causing an unnecessary penalty during a crucial situation.    As Bengals fans we have certainly seen when dumb penalties at bad times have been costly.  Then again fans of every team has seen that at one time or another.  Those tend to get remembered a lot more than when a player gets a holding or PI for example when their team is up a bunch of points.

Overall I think the Bengals having a low penalty count is good.  It may not mean much according to stats but I still think it is a positive.

Nice post George, as you know I am of the same opinion.

(07-02-2022, 01:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Nice post George, as you know I am of the same opinion.

It’s just silly to say it’s not an element of offensive football. Can you overcome it? Sure but it’s like having or not having a sprinkler system for your lawn. The less penalties is going make things easier. Ha I mean realistically does this team make the Super Bowl if it’s heavily penalized? How about those last few playoff games? How about illegal procedure on some of McPherson’s field goals. It’s a silly discussion

(07-02-2022, 12:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I just don't understand how a Bengal fan who has watched us lose game after game because of penalties or lack of penalties
against the other team can say they have no correlation with winning or losing. Baffles my mind, there are hundreds of examples.

We would be in the same boat as we were with no hope and being apathetic. Penalties are a much bigger deal than you and 
Fred make out. Careful who you tie your boat to Rfaulk

What baffles my mind is when you show people factual proof and they refuse to accept it. Rfaulk is not "taking Fred's side". He us beading his opinion on facts and data.

You can't just point to one penalty that coat a game. The facts show that there are also some negative aspects to teams with fewer penalties (less aggression, less desire to keep QB from getting hit, not playing consistent tight pass coverage, etc, etc) that wipe out any benefit of fewer penalties.

There is no correlation between fewer total penalties and winning. That us a fact. Not an opinion. Learn the difference and you will no longer be "baffled".

(07-02-2022, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What baffles my mind is when you show people factual proof and they refuse to accept it. Rfaulk is not "taking Fred's side". He us beading his opinion on facts and data.

You can't just point to one penalty that coat a game. The facts show that there are also some negative aspects to teams with fewer penalties (less aggression, less desire to keep QB from getting hit, not playing consistent tight pass coverage, etc, etc) that wipe out any benefit of fewer penalties.

There is no correlation between fewer total penalties and winning. That us a fact. Not an opinion. Learn the difference and you will no longer be "baffled".

Are you celebrating the 4th a bit early like I am?  I'm just goofing around here and giving you shit,  having a bit of fun. Not trying to be a typo critic.   Had a few myself already today.  So nothing wrong with that.   :)

Enjoy the holiday all and be safe.   And remember don't drive drunk or it my coat you.   There probably won't beading an opinion if you get busted for driving drunk.  That us a fact. :)

No offense to Fred or anyone intended.   Just being a bit silly.   :)

(07-02-2022, 02:54 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: Are you celebrating the 4th a bit early like I am?  I'm just goofing around here and giving you shit,  having a bit of fun. Not trying to be a typo critic.   Had a few myself already today.  So nothing wrong with that.   :)

Enjoy the holiday all and be safe.   And remember don't drive drunk or it my coat you.   There probably won't beading an opinion if you get busted for driving drunk.  That us a fact. :)

No offense to Fred or anyone intended.   Just being a bit silly.   :)

I have a 100% true autocorrect story.

When I text someone for business purposes I sign them as "Atty Fred Toast" (except I use my real name). I just recently discovered that they were all being autocorrected to "Fatty Fred Toast"

(07-02-2022, 02:04 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: It’s just silly to say it’s not an element of offensive football. Can you overcome it? Sure but it’s like having or not having a sprinkler system for your lawn. The less penalties is going make things easier. Ha I mean realistically does this team make the Super Bowl if it’s heavily penalized? How about those last few playoff games? How about illegal procedure on some of McPherson’s field goals. It’s a silly discussion

Completely agree.

(07-02-2022, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What baffles my mind is when you show people factual proof and they refuse to accept it. Rfaulk is not "taking Fred's side". He us beading his opinion on facts and data.

You can't just point to one penalty that coat a game. The facts show that there are also some negative aspects to teams with fewer penalties (less aggression, less desire to keep QB from getting hit, not playing consistent tight pass coverage, etc, etc) that wipe out any benefit of fewer penalties.

There is no correlation between fewer total penalties and winning. That us a fact. Not an opinion. Learn the difference and you will no longer be "baffled".

It is more in the middle, of course penalties can hurt you but also you can overcome them as Soonerpeace says.

Sure helps being disciplined is all I am saying cause you can shoot yourself in the foot and lose games if you are not.

(07-02-2022, 11:51 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: It’s an element of a successful offensive football plain and simple.

It's also an element of a losing football team, plain and simple.

(07-02-2022, 12:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I just don't understand how a Bengal fan who has watched us lose game after game because of penalties or lack of penalties
against the other team can say they have no correlation with winning or losing. Baffles my mind, there are hundreds of examples.

 Penalties are a much bigger deal than you and 
Fred make out. Careful who you tie your boat to Rfaulk lol

First of all, your understanding should lie with studies that are based on statistical trends and not old, out-dated cliches. But it's up to you. You can walk around here saying "we need to establish the run so our play action is effective" and other such things or you can get with the 21st century.

I've had many battles with Fred in the past. I tie my boat to the facts and truth and reply to that and not the name associated with the post. 

Over the last couple weeks a few of you have seemingly gone out of your way to lay the negativity on thick with him when you don't agree with him and it's been pretty noticeable. 

(07-03-2022, 12:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: First of all, your understanding should lie with studies that are based on statistical trends and not old, out-dated cliches. But it's up to you. You can walk around here saying "we need to establish the run so our play action is effective" and other such things or you can get with the 21st century.

I've had many battles with Fred in the past. I tie my boat to the facts and truth and reply to that and not the name associated with the post. 

Over the last couple weeks a few of you have seemingly gone out of your way to lay the negativity on thick with him when you don't agree with him and it's been pretty noticeable. 

I haven't laid negativity on him, he does that all by himself. I just disagree with both of you.

If you disagree with me and are saying that if we were completely undisciplined last season we would of made the Playoffs and 
went to the SuperBowl fine. I find your disagreement absurd. There is no way we go to the Playoffs let alone the SB if we were
completely undisciplined and committing penalties all the time.

(07-03-2022, 12:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: First of all, your understanding should lie with studies that are based on statistical trends and not old, out-dated cliches. But it's up to you. You can walk around here saying "we need to establish the run so our play action is effective" and other such things or you can get with the 21st century.

I've had many battles with Fred in the past. I tie my boat to the facts and truth and reply to that and not the name associated with the post. 

Over the last couple weeks a few of you have seemingly gone out of your way to lay the negativity on thick with him when you don't agree with him and it's been pretty noticeable. 

Which is a skewed statistic because of all the spread shotgun teams that use fake handoffs to hold linebackers in place. They technically run more playaction than rush first teams that playaction is a cornerstone of their offense. 

(07-03-2022, 03:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I haven't laid negativity on him, he does that all by himself. I just disagree with both of you.

If you disagree with me and are saying that if we were completely undisciplined last season we would of made the Playoffs and 
went to the SuperBowl fine. I find your disagreement absurd. There is no way we go to the Playoffs let alone the SB if we were
completely undisciplined and committing penalties all the time.

No one came close to saying that. The simple fact is, penalties, overall, do not correlate to winning and losing. I gave you examples so i'll post a couple links so you can look at the most and least penalized teams the last couple years and take a look at their W/L record.

2020:
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/what-is-the-most-penalties-by-an-nfl-team-in-2020#:~:text=The%20Arizona%20Cardinals%20had%20the,in%202020%2C%20with%20113%20penalties.
7 of the 10 least penalized teams had losing records. 5 of the 10 most penalized teams had winning records.

2021:
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/what-is-the-most-penalties-by-an-nfl-team-in-2021#:~:text=The%20Dallas%20Cowboys%20had%20the,in%202021%2C%20with%20127%20penalties.
5 of the 10 least penalized teams had losing records. 5 of the 10 most penalized teams had winning records. 

(07-03-2022, 03:23 PM)Synric Wrote: Which is a skewed statistic because of all the spread shotgun teams that use fake handoffs to hold linebackers in place. They technically run more playaction than rush first teams that playaction is a cornerstone of their offense. 

I'd have to see the numbers, team by team, to see just how skewed it might be. I'm sure it is to a degree but i'd like to be able to look at how and when it's run and if it matters or not where the QB is lined up. 

To the best of my knowledge, last time it was discussed in depth, formation and scheme didn't really matter in the results. 

(07-03-2022, 12:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: First of all, your understanding should lie with studies that are based on statistical trends and not old, out-dated cliches. But it's up to you. You can walk around here saying "we need to establish the run so our play action is effective" and other such things or you can get with the 21st century.

I've had many battles with Fred in the past. I tie my boat to the facts and truth and reply to that and not the name associated with the post. 

Over the last couple weeks a few of you have seemingly gone out of your way to lay the negativity on thick with him when you don't agree with him and it's been pretty noticeable. 

Fred has been equally negative. Winning and penalties do not correlate by stats, I’ll give you. . Professional sports are outlawed on Sunday in Rhode Island. The serving of beer and pretzels simultaneously is against the law in North Dakota. 3 straight penalties on our defense allowed the Rams to score the go ahead TD in the Super Bowl. Penalties can and do effect games. It’s better to not have them.

(07-03-2022, 04:50 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: No one came close to saying that. The simple fact is, penalties, overall, do not correlate to winning and losing. I gave you examples so i'll post a couple links so you can look at the most and least penalized teams the last couple years and take a look at their W/L record.

2020:
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/what-is-the-most-penalties-by-an-nfl-team-in-2020#:~:text=The%20Arizona%20Cardinals%20had%20the,in%202020%2C%20with%20113%20penalties.
7 of the 10 least penalized teams had losing records. 5 of the 10 most penalized teams had winning records.

2021:
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/what-is-the-most-penalties-by-an-nfl-team-in-2021#:~:text=The%20Dallas%20Cowboys%20had%20the,in%202021%2C%20with%20127%20penalties.
5 of the 10 least penalized teams had losing records. 5 of the 10 most penalized teams had winning records. 

Okay, I can understand you then Rfaulk. Still, penalties are a factor along with everything else in winning and losing.

I personally find it very refreshing to have a very disciplined team for once.