(06-05-2015, 12:18 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: You said he "hardly" showed improvement.  He set franchise records in his third season.  He was in Gruden's system 3 years and he improved in each season.  

Dalton's QBR has, essentially, been stagnant since he's been here.

(06-05-2015, 05:35 PM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: Dalton's QBR has, essentially, been stagnant since he's been here.

His rating, tds and yards passing haven't

(06-05-2015, 04:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great post Murdock, reps.

"I look at Boomer who most fans here love. He wasn't the most talented guy in the league"....for real?

Boomer was a toss up coming out of college as the top QB in the Draft between he and Steve Young. He was unbelievably talented. He was the first QB drafted in his draft class. He had a cannon of an arm, smart, and the leadership qualities of a 5 star general.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff to try and justify Dalton's lack of talent. If Dalton is not drafted to a team who's starting QB vacated the position he would still be holding a clipboard somewhere. He does not possess the tools of a franchise QB. Not the Arm, Not the smarts, not the leadership and without a doubt not the ability to handle pressure (most call that heart).

(06-05-2015, 05:01 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I don't think anyone can honestly say Andy Dalton physically is not a good QB. Go watch the Saints game where he just shredded them, and made every throw with ease. The issue with Dalton is being consistent. Take a guy like Manning, or Brady or Rogers. They have bad games too, just like every QB in the league, but their bad games aren't a 2 QBR vs Cleveland.

I honestly believe the difference between Andy Dalton as he is now, and him being in the talks of a top 10 QB is mental. 

This times 1000.

I could understand the hopelessness some seem to have about Dalton if he had produced average numbers by being consistently average.  That would pretty much show us what his ceiling was.  But instead Dalton has had a lot of great games.  When you look at the number of games with a 100+ passer over the last 4 years Dalton is top ten and all the other guys on the list have passer ratings well up in the 90's.  The problem is that Dalton also has more really bad games than any of those other top QBs.

So while Dalton is just average right now he has shown that he has a higher potential ceiling than the QBs who produce average numbers by just being consistently average.

**EDIT** looked at the numbers and Dalton is actually tied at 11th with Joe Flacco for most games with a 100+ rating over the last four seasons. Cam Newton is 10th. Both Flacco and Newton have passer ratings in the 80's like Dalton, but the other 8 QBs on the list all have career ratings up in the 90's.

(06-06-2015, 10:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This times 1000.

I could understand the hopelessness some seem to have about Dalton if he had produced average numbers by being consistently average.  That would pretty much show us what his ceiling was.  But instead Dalton has had a lot of great games.  When you look at the number of games with a 100+ passer over the last 4 years Dalton is top ten and all the other guys on the list have passer ratings well up in the 90's.  The problem is that Dalton also has more really bad games than any of those other top QBs.

So while Dalton is just average right now he has shown that he has a higher potential ceiling than the QBs who produce average numbers by being consistently average.

This is the most maddening thing about him.  His best is really good.  If only someone could find the magic key to unlock that vault permanently.

(06-05-2015, 07:44 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: "I look at Boomer who most fans here love. He wasn't the most talented guy in the league"....for real?

Boomer was a toss up coming out of college as the top QB in the Draft between he and Steve Young. He was unbelievably talented. He was the first QB drafted in his draft class. He had a cannon of an arm, smart, and the leadership qualities of a 5 star general.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff to try and justify Dalton's lack of talent. If Dalton is not drafted to a team who's starting QB vacated the position he would still be holding a clipboard somewhere. He does not possess the tools of a franchise QB. Not the Arm, Not the smarts, not the leadership and without a doubt not the ability to handle pressure (most call that heart).

You should be talking to Murdock, not me since it was his words you quoted, i just agreed with them.

(06-06-2015, 10:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This times 1000.

I could understand the hopelessness some seem to have about Dalton if he had produced average numbers by being consistently average.  That would pretty much show us what his ceiling was.  But instead Dalton has had a lot of great games.  When you look at the number of games with a 100+ passer over the last 4 years Dalton is top ten and all the other guys on the list have passer ratings well up in the 90's.  The problem is that Dalton also has more really bad games than any of those other top QBs.

So while Dalton is just average right now he has shown that he has a higher potential ceiling than the QBs who produce average numbers by just being consistently average.

**EDIT** looked at the numbers and Dalton is actually tied at 11th with Joe Flacco for most games with a 100+ rating over the last four seasons.  Cam Newton is 10th.  Both Flacco and Newton have passer ratings in the 80's like Dalton, but the other 8 QBs on the list all have career ratings up in the 90's.

(06-06-2015, 10:20 AM)McC Wrote: This is the most maddening thing about him.  His best is really good.  If only someone could find the magic key to unlock that vault permanently.

I completely agree, when Dalton has been good he has looked great. You cannot say that about terrible QB's.

And he is still young. I think if Hue would just get out of his head and let him play we will see the improvement we want out of Dalton.

(06-06-2015, 01:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I completely agree, when Dalton has been good he has looked great. You cannot say that about terrible QB's.

And he is still young. I think if Hue would just get out of his head and let him play we will see the improvement we want out of Dalton.

They've wanted him to be this way, that, way, then this other way.  So he ends up constantly thinking and telling himself this or that.   They just need to let him play.  Give him a system he can run and get the hell out of the way.  You can't have your QB thinking so much.  

(06-06-2015, 01:56 PM)McC Wrote: They've wanted him to be this way, that, way, then this other way.  So he ends up constantly thinking and telling himself this or that.   They just need to let him play.  Give him a system he can run and get the hell out of the way.  You can't have your QB thinking so much.  

Damn rights.

(06-06-2015, 01:56 PM)McC Wrote: They've wanted him to be this way, that, way, then this other way.  So he ends up constantly thinking and telling himself this or that.   They just need to let him play.  Give him a system he can run and get the hell out of the way.  You can't have your QB thinking so much.  

(06-06-2015, 02:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Damn rights.

Agree 1000% !

Quit trying to mold him into this type QB, that type passer, unscripted plays, mistake free game mgr, etc. and just shut the hell up and let him play.

I will always believe they shattered his confidence last season with the constant interference or whatever you want to call it.

(06-05-2015, 10:27 AM)Nately120 Wrote: You make some fair points but 2011 had a much easier schedule (it was night and day, really), no Bratkowski, and I'm sure there is some other stuff in there.  Palmer and Dalton were both better in 2011-2014 (for the most part) than Palmer in 2010 and there are a lot of reasons for that.  My main point simply comes down to the fact that we played teams in 2010 with the following records:

14-2
12-4
2-14
5-11
10-6
13-3
7-9
12-4
10-6
4-12
11-5
11-5
12-4
5-11
9-7
12-4

Now we managed to lose to two clunker teams, so we were outright bad at times but the 2011 team showed the same inability to beat winning teams as the 2010 one did (they both beat a single winning team)...they just ran into a lot less really good teams.

NE made it to the superbowl beating 1 team with a winning record including the playoffs.
Would you take that SB appearance away from them?

The who did you beat argument is kinda moot considering a lot factors in determining who you play.
Too many variables.

(06-06-2015, 02:37 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: NE made it to the superbowl beating 1 team with a winning record including the playoffs.
Would you take that SB appearance away from them?

The who did you beat argument is kinda moot considering a lot factors in determining who you play.
Too many variables.

Making the Super Bowl versus wilting in the first round against a 3rd string QB?  I sense a difference there.

(06-04-2015, 05:13 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: http://www.cincyjungle.com/2015/6/2/8715341/most-passing-yards-first-four-seasons

For a guy who everyone says "can't throw," Andy sure has thrown for a lot of yards.   I am rooting for him.  I think he has the talent to put it together and win a playoff game and more  I really want him to succeed.  I'll admit some of my reasons are not football related.  He's a fabulous face for the Bengals, a guy who gives to others and doesn't get in trouble.  A guy who has supported Cincinnati Children's Hospital, which is near and dear to my heart, along with other charities.  So do I want him to succeed?  Absolutely.  I am really rooting for him this year because I think it's his last chance to win a playoff game before the Bengals move on.

This just goes to show you that stats don't always tell the whole story. Manning and Marino are far more impressive because of the era they racked up those yards in.

I'm rooting for Andy too. Unfortunately my expectations could not be lower. 

(06-06-2015, 07:04 PM)Utts Wrote: This just goes to show you that stats don't always tell the whole story. Manning and Marino are far more impressive because of the era they racked up those yards in.

I'm rooting for Andy too. Unfortunately my expectations could not be lower. 

Yep you sure sound like you are rooting for him.............

(06-05-2015, 07:44 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: "I look at Boomer who most fans here love. He wasn't the most talented guy in the league"....for real?

Boomer was a toss up coming out of college as the top QB in the Draft between he and Steve Young. He was unbelievably talented. He was the first QB drafted in his draft class. He had a cannon of an arm, smart, and the leadership qualities of a 5 star general.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff to try and justify Dalton's lack of talent. If Dalton is not drafted to a team who's starting QB vacated the position he would still be holding a clipboard somewhere. He does not possess the tools of a franchise QB. Not the Arm, Not the smarts, not the leadership and without a doubt not the ability to handle pressure (most call that heart).

And Alex Smith was taken before Aaron Rodgers, and Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf was "a close debate" as well at one time. The draft hype means absolutely nothing. 

My statement was he was never the most talented guy in the league. For his Bengals' career, he is one game over .500 62 wins to 61 losses. His career numbers if you add in the Jets and the one year in Arizona, 80-93. Compare him to Steve Young and tell me who ended up as the more natural talent.

Boomer was good, but his best quality wasn't his arm, it was his mind, which you actually agreed with. You called him a natural leader, and that was exactly what I said. He has that "it" factor the smarts and leadership and that is exactly what Andy is missing.

Dalton has the raw physical ability you don't have those great games he has had because you got lucky. He just has to find the way to tap into the other side of things, and be that field general that the great QB's are, like Peyton, like Brady, like Brees and Rodgers. Those guys command respect, and their team gives everything on every play. That is what Andy needs to find, that fire, that confidence, that drive.

(06-07-2015, 01:06 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: And Alex Smith was taken before Aaron Rodgers, and Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf was "a close debate" as well at one time. The draft hype means absolutely nothing. 

My statement was he was never the most talented guy in the league. For his Bengals' career, he is one game over .500 62 wins to 61 losses. His career numbers if you add in the Jets and the one year in Arizona, 80-93. Compare him to Steve Young and tell me who ended up as the more natural talent.

Boomer was good, but his best quality wasn't his arm, it was his mind, which you actually agreed with. You called him a natural leader, and that was exactly what I said. He has that "it" factor the smarts and leadership and that is exactly what Andy is missing.

Dalton has the raw physical ability you don't have those great games he has had because you got lucky. He just has to find the way to tap into the other side of things, and be that field general that the great QB's are, like Peyton, like Brady, like Brees and Rodgers. Those guys command respect, and their team gives everything on every play. That is what Andy needs to find, that fire, that confidence, that drive.

A couple points...
1. What do you think Steve Young's record would have been if he had decided to enter into the NFL draft rather than AVOID the BENGALS (who presented him with their contact offer as they were going to draft him)? Boomer would have gone to the Giants and history would be a lot different. Do you think Steve Young's record would have been better than Boomer's had he finished his career with the team that drafted him once the USFL folded? That team was Tampa Bay and  Young's record as starter was 3–16. In his 19 games, he threw for only 11 touchdowns with 21 interceptions while completing fewer than 55% of his passes. Boomer was as good athletically as he was mentally and as a leader. He record is an indication of being drafted by a terribly ran organization...like many top talents the Bengals have wasted away under SOP's watch.

2. Point one makes point two...won loss records do not tell the whole story most of the time. Dalton has none of the skill set of the other QB's you mentioned. You will find no scouting report that says he has a strong NFL arm, that he can make all the throws, that he has great mobility, that he is fast, or has an uncanny knack for shedding off D-linemen. What Dalton was supposed to have was good NFL intelligence, and strong leadership ability. As you pointed out he does not have those either. Look at the air yards Dalton has...not very impressive. His receivers get a lot of YAC's for him. Now I do not discount his ability to find those open receivers and get them the ball. However I have come to realize he does it out of necessity due to his lack of being able to throw to the entire field. 

Rhino, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. You have this blind belief that Dalton is garbage, and I choose to believe that he has the physical tools, just lacks in the mental side of things. You don't put up the numbers he has without being physically talented. Does he have room to improve in his physical game, absolutely. I just see a guy who can shred a team's defense and make all the throws, then the very next week, he looks lost, and confused and can't get out of his own way. That's not a physical issue, that is confidence and that "it" factor the great ones have.

(06-07-2015, 04:41 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Rhino, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. You have this blind belief that Dalton is garbage, and I choose to believe that he has the physical tools, just lacks in the mental side of things. You don't put up the numbers he has without being physically talented. Does he have room to improve in his physical game, absolutely. I just see a guy who can shred a team's defense and make all the throws, then the very next week, he looks lost, and confused and can't get out of his own way. That's not a physical issue, that is confidence and that "it" factor the great ones have.

Murdock I appreciate the dialog and I respect that you have an opinion. I realize that I am not going to change your view on Dalton’s skill-set nor do I want to. I do not think Dalton is “garbage”…I do think he has the athletic talent (skill-set) of a back-up NFL QB.  

I only present the facts so that others who are reading our banter are not misinformed by your passion to defend Dalton’s skills. Not only you, but several on here make statement about Dalton “shredding” teams, often mentioned are the Saints and how he looked like a hall-of-famer that can make any throw.

The Saints were a sub 500 team with a record of 4-5 when the Bengals played them. They had lost to the Falcons, Browns, Cowboys, Lions and 49er’s prior to losing to the Bengals. They finished the year 7-9…not very good. It’s par for the course for Dalton…like any NFL back-up he looks good against bad teams and every once in a great while (when all the stars align) he looks OK against a good team.

Unfortunately he does not fare well against good team very often. Most of the time, against good teams the Bengal's loose to the Dalton defenders can only say “Dalton didn’t lose this one”…the fact is he is not good enough in those games to win them.

Let’s look at the misnomer that Dalton “shredded” the saints. He threw the ball 22 times and completed 16…a great completion percentage on a low number of passes. He only had 220 yards of passing. Is that shredding a team? BTW the Bengals rushed for 186…yes Dalton had 12 of those on two carries. The game plan was to run the ball…only 37% of the plays were pass plays. One may think that the Bengals were playing a time of possession strategy to seal the game…well the Saints had the edge in TOP!

Of Dalton’s 16 completions, 6 or 38% were to #18. Those catches by #18 made up 58% of all the passing yards. The tight end caught 2 passes for 13 yards and 2 TD’s. Not “lights out” or “OMG” types of plays. One was a fumble short of the end zone that #84 recovered his self  for a TD…not sure how that is a passing TD but I digress.  The longest pass play was only 38 yards (to number #18) 6 YAC’s (32 in air…shredding?).  

Yes Dalton did take care of the ball; he had no INT’s and 3 TD’s…from that perspective ONLY it was a good game. He threw a beautiful 24yd TD to #18 with only 1 YAC…great touch on the ball. This is Dalton’s range…0-35 yds in the middle of the field or to the short sideline. That is not the range of a QB that can make all the throws.

BTW…the 10 pts scored by the Saints were the fewest of the season and 330 totals net yards was the 2nd fewest of the season for the Saints. The Defense won that game, period. Dalton was a participant of a win, not a reason the Bengals won.
 
Dalton had 220 yds 3 TD’s 0 Int’s against a defense that was terrible.
QB’s with three TD’s against the 2014 Satins: Ryan, Romo, and Newton. 
QB’s with 0 Int’s against the 2014 Saints: Rayn (2x’s), Hoyer, Bridegwater,  Romo, Kaepernick, Flacco, and Newton
QB’s with more than 220 yds against the 2014 Saints: Ryan (448), Romo, Glennon, Stafford (no #81), Rodgers (418), Flacco, Roethlisberger (435), Newton, Ryan.

Still think Dalton “shredded” the Saints?

(06-07-2015, 01:06 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: And Alex Smith was taken before Aaron Rodgers, and Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf was "a close debate" as well at one time. The draft hype means absolutely nothing. 

My statement was he was never the most talented guy in the league. For his Bengals' career, he is one game over .500 62 wins to 61 losses. His career numbers if you add in the Jets and the one year in Arizona, 80-93. Compare him to Steve Young and tell me who ended up as the more natural talent.

Boomer was good, but his best quality wasn't his arm, it was his mind, which you actually agreed with. You called him a natural leader, and that was exactly what I said. He has that "it" factor the smarts and leadership and that is exactly what Andy is missing.

Dalton has the raw physical ability you don't have those great games he has had because you got lucky. He just has to find the way to tap into the other side of things, and be that field general that the great QB's are, like Peyton, like Brady, like Brees and Rodgers. Those guys command respect, and their team gives everything on every play. That is what Andy needs to find, that fire, that confidence, that drive.

Lighting it up man, another great post.

(06-04-2015, 05:13 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: http://www.cincyjungle.com/2015/6/2/8715341/most-passing-yards-first-four-seasons

For a guy who everyone says "can't throw," Andy sure has thrown for a lot of yards. 

All this really shows is he's played in a lot of games through four years.  I'm sorry to be the bad guy here, the Debbie Downer, but that's what these "Andy Dalton through 4 years" stats mean.  That he's a modern QB that has started a lot of games since day 1.

First of all, any QB prior to 1990 is going to be judge entirely differently because the game was entirely different.  Even pre 2000 it was different.  Heck, really in the last 7 years passing numbers have exploded.  You've seen double digit percentage increases in all the major categories just in Marvin's time.

So when you bring a QB's total yardage now vs QB's of the past it's not at all apples to apples.

How many QB's started from day 1?  What if a QB starts year 2 and post way better numbers in years 2, 3, and 4?  Did he have a worse start to his career than the the guy who started since day 1, simply because his totals are lower?

I don't know if many of you are just being stubborn or short-sided with these types of stats.  It pretty clear that all they really say is Andy played in more games than most people and that he played in post 2010, where even average QB's throw for 4,000 yards.  That's it.

Andy Dalton has started a lot games.  The end.  In no way does that make the start to his career better than someone who didn't play four straight 16 games seasons.