Patrick Mahones consistently hit smash and dig routes in his earlier years. Burrow depends too heavily on deep vertical ones. This is a surface level comparison that shows cracks the more you dig into the specifics of why each offense struggled and the players capabilities to adapt.

(10-10-2022, 06:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Good news! We don't have to play the Bengals this year!

And yet Zac Taylor beat us last game….

(10-10-2022, 03:33 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: You know that team that has hosted four AFC Championship games in a row? The same one our Bengals beat twice last season? Let's take a look at how their 2021 season started:

Beat Cleveland by 4 (1-0)
Lost to Baltimore by 1 (1-1)
Lost to LAC by 6 (1-2)
Beat Philadelphia by 12 (2-2)
Lost to Buffalo by 18 (2-3)
Beat Washington by 18 (3-3)
Lost to Tennessee by 24 (3-4)

They opened 2-3, and two of those losses were very close.

How about all-world quarterback Patrick Mahomes in those first five games? He threw six interceptions. The Chiefs very publicly struggled through the first half of 2021 as defenses played with two safeties deep to force Mahomes to be patient and sustain long, methodical drives. It led to him making mistakes at an inordinate rate, and they were very slow to get out of that funk, even with Hall of Fame offensive mastermind head coach Andy Reid in command. Eventually they did (they won every other game not listed above apart from their two games against the Bengals). Hell, even as the Chiefs started winning, Mahomes himself was still struggling throughout the middle portion of the season against cover two. He finished with seven overall games under 7 yards per pass attempt.

There are clearly parallels here. How about another one?

~ They opened 2021 with three new starters on the offensive line (Thuney, Humphrey, and Brown) after their previous unit got pushed around in the Super Bowl.

---

This isn't all to say that the 2022 Bengals are the 2021 Chiefs. But they sure as hell can be. These Bengals are also much better on defense than those Chiefs were. My point is that the struggles the Bengals have had so far this year should look familiar, because a team with a very similar build to ours (excellent quarterback with a million weapons, an offensive head coach, a defense with questionable pass rush but strong fundamentals, etc) just went through a lot of the same problems and still found themselves.

Indeed, I think the Bengals problems on offense are symptomatic of larger trends league-wide: scoring is down in general. Defense has been ahead of offense across the NFL for the first five weeks. There are exceptions here and there, but this is the trend. It's very easy to look at our arsenal of offensive talent and scream WTF, but it seems to me that the Bengals are not alone in this struggle (and neither is Zac Taylor). Their chances this season will likely depend on their ability to break free from the malaise faster than most other teams manage, and their willingness to follow the blueprint laid before them by the Chiefs.

I referred to the Chiefs of 2021 in another post, but without as much detail.  Nice post.

I think it also illustrates a similar path in QB development.  Mahomes was very frustrated with teams taking away deep plays and he kept trying to force the issue.  When he got the RB involved in the passing game more (they have a guy more like Evans than Mixon) as well as shallow crossers to his WRs while Kelce and Hill took the proverbial top off the defense, it all started to click.  

One big difference, Andy Reid is the KING of misdirection, play-action, and motion.  We have Burrow stand on one place FAR too often and it makes him a sitting duck for pass rushers.  

Hoping it all gets turned around this weekend and they can go on a nice run and start playing like they are having fun again.  

(10-10-2022, 03:41 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yes, but in another part of that post, he pointed to 3 new olinemen to start the year for KC. 

This is fun.  One guy makes a post (a good one) and everyone spends the rest of the thread explaining it to a guy that admittedly didn't read it.  

(10-14-2022, 09:48 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I referred to the Chiefs of 2021 in another post, but without as much detail.  Nice post.

I think it also illustrates a similar path in QB development.  Mahomes was very frustrated with teams taking away deep plays and he kept trying to force the issue.  When he got the RB involved in the passing game more (they have a guy more like Evans than Mixon) as well as shallow crossers to his WRs while Kelce and Hill took the proverbial top off the defense, it all started to click.  

One big difference, Andy Reid is the KING of misdirection, play-action, and motion.  We have Burrow stand on one place FAR too often and it makes him a sitting duck for pass rushers.  

Hoping it all gets turned around this weekend and they can go on a nice run and start playing like they are having fun again.  

Agree here. Never could understand not getting Burrow out on the edge more to buy a little more time. It also shortens throwing lanes and also not as many batted balls by the DL.

(10-10-2022, 03:45 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: calm down, Francis. I admitted I was wrong

tell you what though, Collins doesnt look good at all

He is struggling with a back injury, but he is out there toughing it out.  He has become everyone's favorite whipping boy now that Carman is on the pine.  

Collins could be pulling a Cordy Glenn and just sitting this one out, but he is out there and getting in game shape the hard way.  He seems very stiff to me and I am sure a back issue is a ***** for a lineman.  He will be getting extra treatment and work to stay loose and should continue to progress as his body adapts to his new normal.  I am sure glad he is out there over Isiah Prince, even if the early returns haven't been what everyone has hoped for.  

(10-10-2022, 03:58 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: The Chiefs have Andy Reid.

Obvious truth, but a good point.  I will also point out that last year, Anarumo got the best of him....twice.  

(10-10-2022, 04:03 PM)Whacked Wrote: OP:  They have a totally different coach though.

*Edit - someone beat me to it lol

Me as well...haha.  As I read through this thread, I am the third person to point this out.  At this point.  I wonder what place I will end  up?  

(10-10-2022, 04:11 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: One player that I think would excel working underneath against cover two spam is Trent Taylor. I don't think he'll get the opportunities, but if he did I would expect good things. Tyler Boyd is getting those opportunities, and unfortunately it hasn't been panning out yet -- even with Burrow increasingly willing to check it down lately.

On a lot of video being shared, Boyd has been wide open in the middle of the field and Burrow is either not seeing it or intentionally (stupidly) looking for more downfield.  

Agreed on Taylor, at least in a rotational effort.  Chris Evans could also be this person.  Although Chris Evans is to Zac Taylor what Tyler Boyd was to Marvin Lewis.  

(10-14-2022, 09:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Obvious truth, but a good point.  I will also point out that last year, Anarumo got the best of him....twice.  

Yep and Andy Reid looked like our current version of Zac Taylor for both of those 2nd half goose eggs. Where was the outcry that Reid should give up play-calling duties or share those? Reid isn't getting paid huge $$ to beat the Texans in week 4 by 20 points. He's like Ryan Day or Nick Saban as it's all about getting into the playoffs and advancing to the top prize.

(10-10-2022, 08:14 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: What I am saying, that I probably haven't communicated clearly enough, is this:

We know that Andy Reid faced this cover two problem last year with an absolutely loaded offensive roster. About 9-10 games into the season, the Chiefs seemed to settle into a rhythm and ended up third in the league in total yards when the season ended.

We also know that Zac Taylor faces a similar problem right now with a similarly loaded offensive roster. Through 5 games, we have seen inconsistent signs of improvement, but it looked bad last night.

We don't know yet whether the Zac Taylor offense will manage to turn it around like Andy Reid and the Chiefs did. Just predicting they *won't* on the basis of "Zac Taylor" strikes me as incredibly pessimistic and even unrealistic given the talent on the roster. Even an all-time great coach had trouble with this, and it took him longer than five games to get it sorted. We won't know whether Zac Taylor is the world's biggest doofus (or at least less successful than Andy Reid in solving this particular issue) until he has had at least as much time as Andy Reid had. It just so happens that the schedule will be softer for a while, so the opportunity for stacking wins is ripe for the taking.

I don't know if they'll do it, but I think it's plenty realistic that they can do it. We'll see. If after 10 games the offense is still stinking up the place and the team is sputtering around under .500, then by all means. Hurl those pitchforks.

You are dead on with this assessment, IMHO.  Those saying ZT hasn't done shyt must have been in a coma last year.  What ZT did with THAT line and some rookie talent was very impressive.  Remember, the defense might have been what got them to the Super Bowl through the playoffs last year, but the offense got them to the playoffs in the first place.  

I have a lot of hope and optimism that they will get things figured out, and I sure hope it starts this weekend.  

One thing is for sure....the expectations for this team were changed dramatically by last season.  There were times that bumbling around .500 sounded pretty good around here.  

(10-14-2022, 09:52 AM)higgy100 Wrote: Agree here. Never could understand not getting Burrow out on the edge more to buy a little more time. It also shortens throwing lanes and also not as many batted balls by the DL.

Yep.  Someone charted Burrow's dropbacks in one game (not sure if it was Baltimore) and it showed something like all but two (so around 95%) had him at the same depth behind the line, and right in the middle.  When you only have to aim for one spot as a pass rusher, it makes your job easier.  Less read and react, and too much just teeing off.  

(10-14-2022, 01:45 AM)SladeX Wrote: And yet Zac Taylor beat us last game….

Fourth place...

(10-14-2022, 10:00 AM)higgy100 Wrote: Yep and Andy Reid looked like our current version of Zac Taylor for both of those 2nd half goose eggs. Where was the outcry that Reid should give up play-calling duties or share those? Reid isn't getting paid huge $$ to beat the Texans in week 4 by 20 points. He's like Ryan Day or Nick Saban as it's all about getting into the playoffs and advancing to the top prize.

I am not positive, but I think Bienemy calls the plays, FWIW.  But I get your point.  

(10-14-2022, 10:08 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yep.  Someone charted Burrow's dropbacks in one game (not sure if it was Baltimore) and it showed something like all but two (so around 95%) had him at the same depth behind the line, and right in the middle.  When you only have to aim for one spot as a pass rusher, it makes your job easier.  Less read and react, and too much just teeing off.  

I've been wondering the same thing myself ? Why don't they do more rollouts? Why doesn't he shuffle left and right more? He's shown the ability to move in the pocket and throw on the run very well in the past.

But it seems at times during games they're/he's just determined to do a 5 step drop or stay cemented in the shotgun to the center of the pocket. Like you say an easy target point.

I hope they get the offense figured out against the Saints. It's torture to set and watch them struggle like the dickens when we know they're so much more.

(10-14-2022, 10:16 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've been wondering the same thing myself ? Why don't they do more rollouts? Why doesn't he shuffle left and right more? He's shown the ability to move in the pocket and throw on the run very well in the past.

But it seems at times during games they're/he's just determined to do a 5 step drop or stay cemented in the shotgun to the center of the pocket. Like you say an easy target point.

I hope they get the offense figured out against the Saints. It's torture to set and watch them struggle like the dickens when we know they're so much more.

I think one reason is he is just not comfortable yet.  He doesn't read what the linemen are doing as well as he did last year, but it took him time last year as well.  The pressure last year seemed to always come right at his face, and he could step around it.  This year, it seems to come mostly from the outside.  When he tries to step up in the pocket, there isn't room to escape.  Different problem, same result.  

He figured it out last year.  I still have a ton of faith in Burrow.  The coaches aren't stupid, even if they make stupid decisions sometimes when it comes to play calling.  They will work with Joe and have a better plan.  No one hates losing more than Joe.  And I am sure he is keeping receipts for all those in the media that are heavily criticizing him now.  

what about ism doesnt usually work or mean much

(10-10-2022, 06:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Good news! We don't have to play the Bengals this year!

Yes. I'd hate to have a 17 to 17 tie on the record.

(10-14-2022, 10:16 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've been wondering the same thing myself ? Why don't they do more rollouts? Why doesn't he shuffle left and right more? He's shown the ability to move in the pocket and throw on the run very well in the past.

But it seems at times during games they're/he's just determined to do a 5 step drop or stay cemented in the shotgun to the center of the pocket. Like you say an easy target point.

I hope they get the offense figured out against the Saints. It's torture to set and watch them struggle like the dickens when we know they're so much more.

He's not real comfortable rolling out and never has been. He didn't do that at LSU unless forced out of the pocket and he's done it very very rarely here. Success hit Burrow and the receivers (especially Chase) awful quickly last year and too quick for defenses to make real, lasting adjustments. NFL is the ultimate game of chess.The average fan thinks it takes 4-5 practice snaps to run successful roll outs. It can take weeks to get all 11 players on the same page and knowing each guy next to him is also doing.

Roll forward to now and you have 4 new OL (5 with the TE) and a QB that missed the entire preseason including several weeks of practice. You don't pickup comfortability in this league in just a couple games against anybody let alone seeing TJ Watt in week one and an excellent DL/Bck 7 in Dallas.

(10-14-2022, 10:11 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am not positive, but I think Bienemy calls the plays, FWIW.  But I get your point.  

Sorry for the tangent, but I remember seeing Reid say this earlier this year.   Prior to him saying this, wasn't everyone saying that he (Bieniemy) didn't call them?  It seems to have been an oft-referenced concern when he was a HC candidate over the recent past.