(10-18-2022, 11:24 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yeah, I'm not sold on the coaches having any sort of revelation that suddenly changed the product on the field.  Like you, I think that it's more a case of the guys on the field getting it together and playing up to what they have shown to be capable of.  OL getting a little continuity, Joe scanning his entire array of weapons on any given play, defense hanging tough in the face of injuries.

I think it's a combination of both. 

They are definitely doing things differently on offense scheme wise. They aren't going under center AT ALL anymore and are running everything out of shotgun. The predictability of the run/pass is no longer there. It also looks like they are doing a lot less outsize zone run stuff which has seemed to help the run game a lot. 

Players are definitely playing "better" though, that's for sure. 

Think Burrow being willing to spread the ball around and the O-line establishing the run game, if even on a limited basis opened things up.

Not sure Zac could be blamed for everything early on but absolutely some of it was on him and happy to see the adjustments.

(10-18-2022, 10:58 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This is why the run game matters. It makes the defense play you differently - which is a huge deal when you have guys like Chase and Higgins who can absolutely feast on man coverage. This is the type of stuff that doesn't show up in analytics. 

The Chase TD at the end of the game essentially turned into man coverage. The safety on his side of the field played down and respected the run/short pass to the TE, the safety on the other side was late coming over. 

Agree completely and have been saying this all summer. If a team is built to run or even split then the analytics may support this theory.

But when a team has a QB and 3 WR's that are studs and you can make the defense respect the run, it's turn out the lights the party's is over.  

They can't stop everything.  

(10-18-2022, 11:42 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Think Burrow being willing to spread the ball around and the O-line establishing the run game, if even on a limited basis opened things up.

Not sure Zac could be blamed for everything early on but absolutely some of it was on him and happy to see the adjustments.

True. Joe hates it under center. But under center put pressure on the defense and the cover 2 w/ deep safeties. But they had to either run better or get the short passes and YAC going. They finally meshed.

(10-18-2022, 11:47 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Have been saying this all summer. If a team is built to run or even split then the analytics may support this theory.

But when a team has a QB and 3 WR's that are studs and you can make the defense respect the run, it's turn out the lights the party's is over.  

They can't stop everything.  

A successful run game is so vital.

(10-18-2022, 11:24 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yeah, I'm not sold on the coaches having any sort of revelation that suddenly changed the product on the field.  Like you, I think that it's more a case of the guys on the field getting it together and playing up to what they have shown to be capable of.  OL getting a little continuity, Joe scanning his entire array of weapons on any given play, defense hanging tough in the face of injuries.

Yes. There have CERTAINLY been questionable decisions by the staff *cough* Baltimore *cough*. That said, our young QB is learning that you can move the chains and score by taking what they give you. More of that, and soon enough, he'll be able to push it down the field because more of those opportunities will arise. I was impressed with his play Sunday. 

I would like to see better and more consistent results in first quarter and first half. Seems like bengals are usually playing from behind in second half.

(10-18-2022, 11:24 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yeah, I'm not sold on the coaches having any sort of revelation that suddenly changed the product on the field.  Like you, I think that it's more a case of the guys on the field getting it together and playing up to what they have shown to be capable of.  OL getting a little continuity, Joe scanning his entire array of weapons on any given play, defense hanging tough in the face of injuries.

This staff has seen the cover 2 defense all their lives as players and coaches. They know how to defend it. Now getting a QB who has the patience to attack it is a whole other matter. After the NO game Taylor said the offense bought into the scheme and plan. What he meant was Joe. Joe hates it under center. But we couldn’t run it out of the shotgun. The poor OL play was not helping the run game out of the shotgun. Joe is still learning. He’s not seen a lot of cover 2. Lots of teams are playing this defense. It’s a copy cat league. Did you watch KC/Bills and LAC/Den last night. The big pass plays are tougher. You have to be able to run it on cover 2 w/ deep safeties. You have to have a great short passing game. The Bengals are now all on the same page and more in sync. Joe has more latitude in changing the play than anybody not named Brady. He always wants the big play. Everybody knows that. He’s now resigned teams are going to play them that way. He hates it but he’s bought in now. He wants to win. The staff and Joe are now on the same page.

Charlie Goldsmith: The Enquirer

After the Cincinnati Bengals lost to the Dallas Cowboys in a Week 2 game where the Bengals’ offense looked broken, head coach Zac Taylor and offensive coordinator Brian Callahan had a meeting to deconstruct the identity of the Bengals’ offense.

The Bengals were running two separate offenses at that point. There was a shotgun passing game, which looks a lot like the spread offense that Bengals quarterback Joe Burrow ran at LSU. And there was a power wide-zone run game the Bengals ran when they were under center.

The problem was the two schemes didn’t mesh. Defenses could tell what was coming based on how the Bengals lined up. They were predictable, and Taylor and Callahan

The message from Taylor and Burrow was to play for first downs, not necessarily for explosive plays. With the Bengals’ success over the middle of the field, with the run game and with run-pass options, Mixon said the Saints became the first team this year that “had to play the Bengals honest.”
“Burrow wasn’t looking for the big play, he was taking what the defense was giving us,” Mixon said. “That led to the glory everybody is getting right now. As long as he’s doing what we’ve got to do, we’ll win nine times out of ten. Really 10 times out of 10. That’s the type of offense we are.”

(10-18-2022, 01:32 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Charlie Goldsmith: The Enquirer

After the Cincinnati Bengals lost to the Dallas Cowboys in a Week 2 game where the Bengals’ offense looked broken, head coach Zac Taylor and offensive coordinator Brian Callahan had a meeting to deconstruct the identity of the Bengals’ offense.

The Bengals were running two separate offenses at that point. There was a shotgun passing game, which looks a lot like the spread offense that Bengals quarterback Joe Burrow ran at LSU. And there was a power wide-zone run game the Bengals ran when they were under center.

The problem was the two schemes didn’t mesh. Defenses could tell what was coming based on how the Bengals lined up. They were predictable, and Taylor and Callahan

The message from Taylor and Burrow was to play for first downs, not necessarily for explosive plays. With the Bengals’ success over the middle of the field, with the run game and with run-pass options, Mixon said the Saints became the first team this year that “had to play the Bengals honest.”
“Burrow wasn’t looking for the big play, he was taking what the defense was giving us,” Mixon said. “That led to the glory everybody is getting right now. As long as he’s doing what we’ve got to do, we’ll win nine times out of ten. Really 10 times out of 10. That’s the type of offense we are.”

Exactly. 

Figured I'd piggyback off of this thread instead on starting a shiny new Zac thread:

Watching the Denver game last night, I saw what I consider the "anti-Zac" and it wasn't pretty.

Now I think Zac is doing a fine job as our HC, but one flaw that even I cannot overlook is our propensity to start slow. We've done it every game, yet managed to put ourselves in a position to win all of them at the end. Conversely, Denver was lights out at the start of last night's game and then turned to complete crap.

IDK what we can do to start playing well early, but we need to figure it out and if we do I feel we'll go far this year. One Sirius this AM Bob Pappa and Charlie Wyse were talking and asked is there any AFC team(s0 that can challenge Buffalo or KC for the AFC and without hesitation Charlie said: The Bengals.

(10-18-2022, 01:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Figured I'd piggyback off of this thread instead on starting a shiny new Zac thread:

Watching the Denver game last night, I saw what I consider the "anti-Zac" and it wasn't pretty.

Now I think Zac is doing a fine job as our HC, but one flaw that even I cannot overlook is our propensity to start slow. We've done it every game, yet managed to put ourselves in a position to win all of them at the end. Conversely, Denver was lights out at the start of last night's game and then turned to complete crap.

IDK what we can do to start playing well early, but we need to figure it out and if we do I feel we'll go far this year. One Sirius this AM Bob Pappa and Charlie Wyse were talking and asked is there any AFC team(s0 that can challenge Buffalo or KC for the AFC and without hesitation Charlie said: The Bengals.

That really surprises me because Weiss is usually playing down the Bengals.  Many here bemoan Zac because his teams seem to get down, then come back to win or almost win.... but look at coaches like Harbaugh, who's teams get out ahead then blow the lead at the end. Of the two, I'd rather be in the first group.

(10-18-2022, 01:32 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Charlie Goldsmith: The Enquirer

After the Cincinnati Bengals lost to the Dallas Cowboys in a Week 2 game where the Bengals’ offense looked broken, head coach Zac Taylor and offensive coordinator Brian Callahan had a meeting to deconstruct the identity of the Bengals’ offense.

The Bengals were running two separate offenses at that point. There was a shotgun passing game, which looks a lot like the spread offense that Bengals quarterback Joe Burrow ran at LSU. And there was a power wide-zone run game the Bengals ran when they were under center.

The problem was the two schemes didn’t mesh. Defenses could tell what was coming based on how the Bengals lined up. They were predictable, and Taylor and Callahan

The message from Taylor and Burrow was to play for first downs, not necessarily for explosive plays. With the Bengals’ success over the middle of the field, with the run game and with run-pass options, Mixon said the Saints became the first team this year that “had to play the Bengals honest.”
“Burrow wasn’t looking for the big play, he was taking what the defense was giving us,” Mixon said. “That led to the glory everybody is getting right now. As long as he’s doing what we’ve got to do, we’ll win nine times out of ten. Really 10 times out of 10. That’s the type of offense we are.”

I've been saying that since last year but everyone will take Charlie's word for it over mine...

(10-18-2022, 09:57 AM)thompson19osu Wrote: The difference I noticed were the routes and portion of the field that was utilized. A lot of the quick hits were slants using the middle of the field. Big change from our typical passes which is outside the hashes. They essentially moved the ball at will yesterday aside from when Mixon was giving up sacks.

Shorter throws over the middle/slants also gives the defenders less time to react and Burrow can hit those passes all day with perfect passes. As Taylor and Callahan are figuring that out, I think Burrow also is figuring it out and realizing that every play doesn't have to be a home run deep ball, especially when players like Chase can break short curl routes for long plays like he did against the Saints.

(10-18-2022, 10:11 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I know a lot of people don't want to hear this...but having success running the ball is the number one reason why this offense is taking off.

They are running everything out of shotgun now and have ditched the outside zone stuff. Defenses aren't playing as much two high and are now respecting our running game. This completely opens up the offense.

Mixon has looked awesome the past couple of weeks.

I agree but I think we need to feed him the ball more, especially in short yardage and especially now that teams are going to start fearing our pass game with shorter routes. Defenses saw how dangerous our receivers, especially Chase, are when they catch the ball with even a little space to move.

Hell, I think even Hurst showed some decent ability to make defenders miss tackles when he has the ball with a little space.

(10-18-2022, 11:20 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've also been of the opinion it helps finish off seasons as well. What I mean is when you get into the back half of your schedule and the weather gets colder and wetter and more miserable the passing game tends to slow a bit. And you need the ability to get those 3rd and two's, score in the red zone inside the 5 running it. Kill the clock late in games and so on.

It can and often does make a big difference in the W column. 

I've preached that all along because of how cold it can get in the AFCN cities in November and December. Hell, it was in the 60s/70s a few days ago here in Cinci and now it's in the low 40s! 

I've been preaching all along that Joe needs to be under center more and we need to feed the ball to Mixon with a head of steam because that's where he works best from and the shorter passing game I think makes being under center even more valuable because Burrow doesn't need as much time to see routes develop.

(10-18-2022, 11:28 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Joe gets tons of unprecedented leeway in free lancing in this offense. It’s paid huge dividends. But he’s been slow to accept the short passing game. The coaches haven’t neglected Tyler Boyd. The coaches haven’t just learned how to defeat the cover 2 with deep safeties. Joe hates it. They’ve been adapting the offense to suit Joe’s preferences. Zac said after the game that the offense bought into the scheme for NO. What he meant was Joe. Joe finally realized the cover 2 wasn’t going away. He adapted. Joe wants to win and his mindset has changed. They are working on the receivers breaking more tackles on short passes and their YAC. Of course the OL playing better has helped. There’s not a staff that’s ever coached in the NFL thst would wait until the 6th game to adapt. Joe just hated it. He’s still learning and hates to lose.

I'm glad that he gets a lot of leeway in free lancing and play calling but I just hope that he calls a lot of run plays. As it gets colder, and especially with this line, we'll need to neutralize pass rushes. Parsons and Watt being able to tee off on the pass rush is what lost us the first two games, IMCO.

(10-18-2022, 01:32 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Charlie Goldsmith: The Enquirer

After the Cincinnati Bengals lost to the Dallas Cowboys in a Week 2 game where the Bengals’ offense looked broken, head coach Zac Taylor and offensive coordinator Brian Callahan had a meeting to deconstruct the identity of the Bengals’ offense.

The Bengals were running two separate offenses at that point. There was a shotgun passing game, which looks a lot like the spread offense that Bengals quarterback Joe Burrow ran at LSU. And there was a power wide-zone run game the Bengals ran when they were under center.

The problem was the two schemes didn’t mesh. Defenses could tell what was coming based on how the Bengals lined up. They were predictable, and Taylor and Callahan

The message from Taylor and Burrow was to play for first downs, not necessarily for explosive plays. With the Bengals’ success over the middle of the field, with the run game and with run-pass options, Mixon said the Saints became the first team this year that “had to play the Bengals honest.”
“Burrow wasn’t looking for the big play, he was taking what the defense was giving us,” Mixon said. “That led to the glory everybody is getting right now. As long as he’s doing what we’ve got to do, we’ll win nine times out of ten. Really 10 times out of 10. That’s the type of offense we are.”

I LOVE IT! Keep it simple! I don't understand why we weren't running Mixon more, but the short passing game was working well! I love that Mixon and all the other players are buying into it and realizing that their stat line doesn't matter as long as we get the W!

Of course, doing that will lead to the safeties cheating up and then Burrow can hit Chase or any other receiver on a quick pass, make one guy miss, and go for a big gain, or even just loft one up and know that Chase or anyone else can outrun the corner! 

(10-18-2022, 10:58 AM)Big_Ern Wrote: Funny thing is he was looking a little off until that big hit from the linebacker on the sideline that drew the flag 

He needed calibrated. 

In conclusion they’ve been running 2 offenses… for awhile. Zac’s and Joe’s. Of course they wanted to appease him and there were elements that were good. But the cover 2 with deep safeties rendered Joe’s favorite plays meaningless. The recipe for the Cover 2 is a good run game ( was a failure mostly early) and a short passing game ( Joe hates that). Mixon said it.

“Burrow wasn’t looking for the big play, he was taking what the defense was giving us,” Mixon said. “That led to the glory everybody is getting right now. As long as he’s doing what we’ve got to do, we’ll win nine times out of ten. Really 10 times out of 10. That’s the type of offense we are.”

Joe is not focusing on the big play as much. They are working on short pass plays and breaking tackles. The bottom line is Joe’s embraced their strategy.

I think the most annoying part about all of this is..... the fans called for this change of approach by the end of game 1.

Why it takes a 2-3 start to implement the correct read/offense is beyond me.

It is interesting. By both running and passing out of shotgun they are reducing the defense's ability to tell the play. And by largely ditching the wide zone and going to a more direct power gap run scheme they are allowing Mixon to just hit the gas into the gap.

(10-18-2022, 09:29 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Our line is bad but it seems like our coaches are finally figuring out that a bad line means that the quarterback needs to release the ball quick because Burrow was 21 of 24 for 201 yards in passes thrown within 10 yards.

We only ran the ball 14 times which is because the Saints were loading the box and forcing us to throw, which I love that our coaches recognized it and adjusted accordingly, but I do think that we shouldn’t give up on the run completely and run as little as we did.

Let’s hope our coaches stay this smart because we’ll be a tough team to beat if we adjust properly like we did against the Saints!

Jonah is banged up and Volson is a rookie, but the rest of the OL played great against the Saints, especially Cappa and 
Collins. The scheme the coaches went to using, a lot of Slants and short routes and attacking the edge with Burrow getting
the ball out fast was exactly what needed to happen to help out the OL and get Burrow on track.

Gives me a lot of hope for this Offense cause if we can attack underneath and run the ball in the Gap scheme we are now
using it will open up the deep pass even more and our WR's aren't going to continue dropping the deep balls either.

My only problem right now with the Offense is Mixon's blitz pickup honestly. I wouldn't have him out there as much, more
Perine and see if Evans can pickup the blitz a bit. At least give Evans some snaps.

(10-18-2022, 03:38 PM)QueenCity Wrote: I think the most annoying part about all of this is..... the fans called for this change of approach by the end of game 1.

Why it takes a 2-3 start to implement the correct read/offense is beyond me.

It was after the second game. Unfortunately Zac was trying to appease Joe’ s wishes. You read what Mixon said. The offense led by Joe was to big play focused, Joe wasn’t ready to buy in