We definitely run some 5-2 in non-goal line vs run heavy teams. Ravens, Titans Steelers, Falcons, Browns.
We play it with 3 DTs (usually Reader and Tupou are two) and then another interior lineman (Hill or Larry O last year). Now, if the guys on the edge are OLBs or DE's is the crux ofif it is 5-2 or 3-4. And sometimes it is one of each. One of the ends is almost always Hendrickson. We don't really have a guy I'd call an OLB in the Lawrence Taylor or Derrick Thomas mold. Wilson, Pratt, Bailey, Johnson, and Bachie are all inside guys/off the line of scrimmage all the way. Though Wilson has enough speed to play OLB in a 4-3, but that is not EDGE. ADG or Ossai probably come closest of the guys we have. But I consider Ossai a DE and ADG an off the line of scrimmage LB. Again, our LBs on the edge is super rare.
Not that ADG or Wilson COULDN'T set the edge, but I don't consider either guy and EDGE/OLB kind of guy. The edges on our 5-2 are usually Hendrickson and Hubbard. Though Sam can kick inside.
Sometimes we also go 4-3 vs run heavy teams. Wilson, Pratt, + ADG, usually. But it is pretty rare.
Our base is most definitely a nickel. 5 DBs, 4 DL, 2 LBs. If we are trying to stop the run, one if the DBs (usually Hilton since the other team has no one in the slot), get yanked for another DT (5-2!) or LB (4-3). I though we'd see some 3 safety looks in dime (6 DBs), with Bell playing as the 2nd LB, but it has been 4 corners much more often. Even when we just rush 3 we have not done it hardly at all.
(12-15-2022, 08:15 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: No, you do not change the defense cause one player goes down. Plug and play like we did with Chase on offense.
As most of us discovered, we are already in a 3-4 and sometimes in a 5-2. I thought this whole time we were in a 4-2-5. I should have asked, "Should we try a 3-4 UNDER defense with Trey down and Brady being a pocket passer?"
(12-15-2022, 10:44 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: As most of us discovered, we are already in a 3-4 and sometimes in a 5-2. I thought this whole time we were in a 4-2-5. I should have asked, "Should we try a 3-4 UNDER defense with Trey down and Brady being a pocket passer?"
(12-15-2022, 10:44 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: As most of us discovered, we are already in a 3-4 and sometimes in a 5-2. I thought this whole time we were in a 4-2-5. I should have asked, "Should we try a 3-4 UNDER defense with Trey down and Brady being a pocket passer?"
Also, FYI Trey DNP again today.
(12-16-2022, 12:28 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, Bong was just late to the thread clearly...
"As most of us discovered, we are already in a 3-4". When? A handful of plays when Hubbard drops back to LB? Once vs the Raiders in the playoff game, 2-3 times vs Chiefs in the Championship game? Even then we are more of a 3-3-5.
We run a Base 4-2-5, vs the Ravens we run some 4-3, vs the Titans and other rush teams we run some 5-2. Our base has NEVER been 3-4, I cant recall us ever playing a true 3-4. So I don't understand why we would consider a 3-4 Under?
(12-16-2022, 12:10 PM)casear2727 Wrote: "As most of us discovered, we are already in a 3-4". When? A handful of plays when Hubbard drops back to LB? Once vs the Raiders in the playoff game, 2-3 times vs Chiefs in the Championship game? Even then we are more of a 3-3-5.
We run a Base 4-2-5, vs the Ravens we run some 4-3, vs the Titans and other rush teams we run some 5-2. Our base has NEVER been 3-4, I cant recall us ever playing a true 3-4. So I don't understand why we would consider a 3-4 Under?
Agreed. I have never seen us with both EDGE guys linebackers outside the 3 DTs. Never.
As I said, we don't really even have 3-4 OLBs on the roster. 4-3 OLBs, yes. But those guys are off the line of scrimmage almost all the time.
1) Sometimes rush 3 on passing downs. But usually we have 6 (or even 7) DBs in that set. Dime is 6 DBs. Double dime 7 dbs. Sometimes when we rush 3, we go with 2 LBs, sometimes a DE drops, sometimes 3 safeties, sometimes 4 or 5 CBs.
2) Play with 3 DTs in a 5-2 set vs running teams, especially a running QB. 3rd CB swapped out for 3rd DT.
3) Play a 4-3 vs running teams. 3rd CB swapped out for 3rd LB.
But the base is most certainly 425 with 3 CBs. Hendickson, Hill, Reader, Hubbard; Wilson, Pratt; Awuzie, Apple, Hilton, Bell, Bates.
(12-16-2022, 02:43 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Now, what we do do is
1) Sometimes rush 3 on passing downs. But usually we have 6 (or even 7) DBs in that set. Dime is 6 DBs. Double dime 7 dbs. Sometimes when we rush 3, we go with 2 LBs, sometimes a DE drops, sometimes 3 safeties, sometimes 4 or 5 CBs.
2) Play with 3 DTs in a 5-2 set vs running teams, especially a running QB. 3rd CB swapped out for 3rd DT.
3) Play a 4-3 vs running teams. 3rd CB swapped out for 3rd LB.
But the base is most certainly 425 with 3 CBs. Hendickson, Hill, Reader, Hubbard; Wilson, Pratt; Awuzie, Apple, Hilton, Bell, Bates.
This is what I see. When we rush 3 it is almost always because Hubbard or Hendrickson drop out in pass coverage. One thing to think about without Hendrickson - I dont recall any of the backup DEs ever being coverage...? We may limited a bit because of this...?
(12-16-2022, 12:10 PM)casear2727 Wrote: "As most of us discovered, we are already in a 3-4". When? A handful of plays when Hubbard drops back to LB? Once vs the Raiders in the playoff game, 2-3 times vs Chiefs in the Championship game? Even then we are more of a 3-3-5.
We run a Base 4-2-5, vs the Ravens we run some 4-3, vs the Titans and other rush teams we run some 5-2. Our base has NEVER been 3-4, I cant recall us ever playing a true 3-4. So I don't understand why we would consider a 3-4 Under?
Didn't mean to agree with we are in a 3-4. Like you said, we run a Base 4-2-5 the most.
(12-16-2022, 12:10 PM)casear2727 Wrote: "As most of us discovered, we are already in a 3-4". When? A handful of plays when Hubbard drops back to LB? Once vs the Raiders in the playoff game, 2-3 times vs Chiefs in the Championship game? Even then we are more of a 3-3-5.
We run a Base 4-2-5, vs the Ravens we run some 4-3, vs the Titans and other rush teams we run some 5-2. Our base has NEVER been 3-4, I cant recall us ever playing a true 3-4. So I don't understand why we would consider a 3-4 Under?
See J24 Post on page 2.
"J24-We play a 3-4 or 5-2 with Hendrickson already. If anything we would be playing more 4-3 without Hendrickson."
(12-16-2022, 03:51 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: See J24 Post on page 2.
"J24-We play a 3-4 or 5-2 with Hendrickson already. If anything we would be playing more 4-3 without Hendrickson."
I totally disagree with Jake if he is assuming Trey is an OLB. I don't think there is any source that suggests he is an OLB. A 3-4 requires OLB rushing at times and other scenarios well off the line of scrimmage.
Also, to assume we are 3-4, that would mean that not only Hendrickson but either Bell or Hilton would be considered LB as well.
We are a 425 base. Im not sure how anyone can suggest we are 3-4 if you know the team?
(12-16-2022, 04:50 PM)casear2727We are a 425 base. Im not sure how anyone can suggest we are 3-4 if you know the team? Wrote: Hubbard DE
Hill DT
Reader DT
Hendrickson DE
Wilson LB
Pratt LB
SS Bell
CB Apple
FS Bates
CB CTB
NCB Hilton
As I said earlier, I always thought our base is a 4-2-5, just like you've diagramed. Jake must be assuming Trey and Sam are hybrid DE/OLBs. Maybe we should ask him to clarify his thoughts.
To answer your question from earlier, I said 3-4 UNDER, (maybe its a 335) b/c Brady is a prolific pocket passer, with a quick release, and pressures probably won't matter to him much. Tampa's rushing is abysmal, so it doesn't worry me, but Tom's arm does. Also, we need to get our sack average up.
This was my original idea with Trey out for this week only. With Hilton and Davis now out, we are paper thin on CBs, so getting an extra LB out there may not be a bad idea.
Hubbard-DE
DJ-NT
BJ-DT
ADG-OLB
Wilson- LB
Pratt-LB
Hilton-NCB
CBT-CB
VB-FS
JB-SS
EA-CB
****EDIT*** Trey's out with a broken wrist. Hilton is out with his Knee, and Jalen Davis is doubtful. So that moves DAX or FLOWERS into the mix and that's all she wrote on CBs unless we move DAX into the slot.
(12-16-2022, 05:40 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: As I said earlier, I always thought our base is a 4-2-5, just like you've diagramed. Jake must be assuming Trey and Sam are hybrid DE/OLBs. Maybe we should ask him to clarify his thoughts.
To answer your question from earlier, I said 3-4 UNDER, (maybe its a 335) b/c Brady is a prolific pocket passer, with a quick release, and pressures probably won't matter to him much. Tampa's rushing is abysmal, so it doesn't worry me, but Tom's arm does. Also, we need to get our sack average up.
This was my original idea with Trey out for this week only. With Hilton and Davis now out, we are paper thin on CBs, so getting an extra LB out there may not be a bad idea.
Hubbard-DE
DJ-NT
BJ-DT
ADG-OLB
Wilson- LB
Pratt-LB
Hilton-NCB
CBT-CB
VB-FS
JB-SS
EA-CB
****EDIT*** Trey's out with a broken wrist. Hilton is out with his Knee, and Jalen Davis is doubtful. So that moves DAX or FLOWERS into the mix and that's all she wrote on CBs unless we move DAX into the slot.
I know exactly what a 3-4 Under is... I'm thinking you are assuming that 4-3 OLBs and 3-4 OLBs are the same? They are not. ADG is in no way a 3-4 OLB - think more Khalil Mack & Micah Parsons.
Running a 3-4 Under assumes that your base defense is a 3-4. In Under the largest/strongest OLB simply moves up to the line on the edge & the reasoning is almost always for run support.
Your takes in this thread are interesting to say the least.
(12-16-2022, 02:50 PM)casear2727 Wrote: This is what I see. When we rush 3 it is almost always because Hubbard or Hendrickson drop out in pass coverage. One thing to think about without Hendrickson - I dont recall any of the backup DEs ever being coverage...? We may limited a bit because of this...?
Sample had a pretty good rep against Pitts in the Alanta game but other than that I don't recall our ends much in coverage.
(12-16-2022, 12:10 PM)casear2727 Wrote: "As most of us discovered, we are already in a 3-4". When? A handful of plays when Hubbard drops back to LB? Once vs the Raiders in the playoff game, 2-3 times vs Chiefs in the Championship game? Even then we are more of a 3-3-5.
We run a Base 4-2-5, vs the Ravens we run some 4-3, vs the Titans and other rush teams we run some 5-2. Our base has NEVER been 3-4, I cant recall us ever playing a true 3-4. So I don't understand why we would consider a 3-4 Under?
We run 5-2 alignment 25% of the time but the majority of the time we are in Nickle. Call it a 5-2 or a 3-4 it doesn't really matter because they are pretty much the same thing.
(12-16-2022, 08:09 PM)J24 Wrote: We run 5-2 alignment 25% of the time but the majority of the time we are in Nickle. Call it a 5-2 or a 3-4 it doesn't really matter because they are pretty much the same thing.
Jake our 5-2 always has 3 DTs and 2 defensive ends not 2 OLB, our nickel is 4-2-5... and like you said, our primary defense alignment.
I'm not sure what personnel are in the game when you guys think we are running a 3-4?
(12-14-2022, 10:47 AM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: What do y'all think of moving to 3-4 Nickle, and playing Davis-Gaither or Jalen Davis on the edge with Hilton on the other side? With what Hilton did to Henry and coming up in support of shutting Chubb down this could be an idea for one of Lou's hybrid defenses.
I do want to see what Ossai, Sample, and Jeff Gunter can do. Lou will have something creative up his sleeve. In Lou we Trust! Who Dey!
(12-16-2022, 08:18 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Jake our 5-2 always has 3 DTs and 2 defensive ends not 2 OLB, our nickel is 4-2-5... and like you said, our primary defense alignment.
I'm not sure what personnel are in the game when you guys think we are running a 3-4?
I think Jake is just meaning when the DEs drop off the ball into coverage and we rush 3.
At the HS level about 10 yrs ago, the popular defense was the 3-5-3 against 1-back sets, the Pistole O, zone read teams. Depending upon offensive formation it was really easy to bounce into a 5-3-cover 3. Just move the OLBs down over the TEs in an 8 or 9 tech.
(12-16-2022, 09:41 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: I think Jake is just meaning when the DEs drop off the ball into coverage and we rush 3.
At the HS level about 10 yrs ago, the popular defense was the 3-5-3 against 1-back sets, the Pistole O, zone read teams. Depending upon offensive formation it was really easy to bounce into a 5-3-cover 3. Just move the OLBs down over the TEs in an 8 or 9 tech.
Dropping a player into coverage does not change the entire scheme, there is much more involved. High School isnt remotely relevant in this conversation for a dozen or more reasons.
3-4 is a very different defense than a 4-3/4-2-5. Im actually surprised that Jake made that comment.
(12-16-2022, 08:18 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Jake our 5-2 always has 3 DTs and 2 defensive ends not 2 OLB, our nickel is 4-2-5... and like you said, our primary defense alignment.
I'm not sure what personnel are in the game when you guys think we are running a 3-4?
3-4 is the exact same scheme as a 5-2. An 3-4 OLB is a traditional End and 3-4 End is a Traditional DT. In reality both Hubbard and Hendrickson could be considered OLB.
(12-17-2022, 01:29 AM)J24 Wrote: 3-4 is the exact same scheme as a 5-2. An 3-4 OLB is a traditional End and 3-4 End is a Traditional DT. In reality both Hubbard and Hendrickson could be considered OLB.
