(04-13-2023, 01:44 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: once again, who cares. You're still arguing casual fan voting. Stop it. PFF certainly thinks Jonah's 2021 was better than any OBjr year. Just saying thats what they think.

In this thread we posted the PFFs for both players:

Jonah’s career numbers


2020 - Run Block 53.4 Pass Block 75.8

2021 - Run Block 79.8 Pass Block 68.8

2022 - Run Block 49.9 Pass Block 63.9

Brown’s career numbers

2018 - Rats RT - Run Block 61.8 Pass Block 73.5

2019 - Rats RT - Run Block 59.4 Pass Block 82.5

2020 - Rats RT - Run Block 73.0 Pass Block 76.7

2021 - Chiefs LT - Run Block 67.0 Pass Block 76.1

2022 - Chiefs LT - Run Block 69.1 Pass Block 77.2




So, Jonah's best run block in 2021 was better but Brown's worst pass block is better than all of jonah's pass blocks except for 2020. 

(04-13-2023, 01:44 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: once again, who cares. You're still arguing casual fan voting. Stop it. PFF certainly thinks Jonah's 2021 was better than any OBjr year. Just saying thats what they think.

This is not true. Especially when you weight the fact that pass blocking is more important in today's NFL over run blocking. Jonah vs OBJr is not even close.

I love how you try to just pass of probowl voting as a popularity contest only voted on by people who don't watch football or know anything about it.... all while not knowing jack shit about what PFF stats you're quoting. The irony is hilarious.

The Bengals are the 10th most popular team in ALL OF AMERICAN PRO SPORTS - yet Jonah Williams doesn't sniff probowl votes. Why? Because he's not a consistantly strong player. This isn't Whitworth playing on a team that doesn't win much or get much media exposure. Bengals are HUGE in the media and with fans and Williams is ignored. Why? Because he isn't good.

Orlando Brown Jr being voted to the probowl 4 straight years on 2 different teams isn't because people just know him for being popular. Oh, and he did this at both LT & RT for the VERY popular Chiefs and the NOT so popular Ravens.

Take the L here with grace and bounce out of the thread. It's long past time.

(04-13-2023, 04:15 PM)Joelist Wrote: In this thread we posted the PFFs for both players:

Jonah’s career numbers


2020 - Run Block 53.4 Pass Block 75.8

2021 - Run Block 79.8 Pass Block 68.8

2022 - Run Block 49.9 Pass Block 63.9

Brown’s career numbers

2018 - Rats RT - Run Block 61.8 Pass Block 73.5

2019 - Rats RT - Run Block 59.4 Pass Block 82.5

2020 - Rats RT - Run Block 73.0 Pass Block 76.7

2021 - Chiefs LT - Run Block 67.0 Pass Block 76.1

2022 - Chiefs LT - Run Block 69.1 Pass Block 77.2




So, Jonah's best run block in 2021 was better but Brown's worst pass block is better than all of jonah's pass blocks except for 2020. 

He was a RT for only 6 games that year, and LT for 10. It was what led to him getting traded because he didn't want to go back to RT after being a Pro Bowl LT in 2020.

(04-13-2023, 05:20 PM)PDub80 Wrote: This is not true. Especially when you weight the fact that pass blocking is more important in today's NFL over run blocking. Jonah vs OBJr is not even close.

I love how you try to just pass of probowl voting as a popularity contest only voted on by people who don't watch football or know anything about it.... all while not knowing jack shit about what PFF stats you're quoting. The irony is hilarious.

The Bengals are the 10th most popular team in ALL OF AMERICAN PRO SPORTS - yet Jonah Williams doesn't sniff probowl votes. Why? Because he's not a consistantly strong player. This isn't Whitworth playing on a team that doesn't win much or get much media exposure. Bengals are HUGE in the media and with fans and Williams is ignored. Why? Because he isn't good.

Orlando Brown Jr being voted to the probowl 4 straight years on 2 different teams isn't because people just know him for being popular. Oh, and he did this at both LT & RT for the VERY popular Chiefs and the NOT so popular Ravens.

Take the L here with grace and bounce out of the thread. It's long past time.

the Bengals are popular NOW. They were on the rise in 2021. Plus Jonah does have all those sacks attributed to him in 2021, on a team that was known to have a garbage line. 

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jonah-williams/41651?season=2021

his overall grade for 2021 is 77.1

that's higher than any OBjr year. This is not a lie. Look at the website. 

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/orlando-brown/46227

now go through Brown's seasons and try to find his best year. Guess what? It isnt higher than 77.1

this is all Im saying. He's a good player. I'll take him over Jonah. Stop giving him credit for the pro bowls. 

(04-13-2023, 04:15 PM)Joelist Wrote: In this thread we posted the PFFs for both players:

Jonah’s career numbers


2020 - Run Block 53.4 Pass Block 75.8

2021 - Run Block 79.8 Pass Block 68.8

2022 - Run Block 49.9 Pass Block 63.9

Brown’s career numbers

2018 - Rats RT - Run Block 61.8 Pass Block 73.5

2019 - Rats RT - Run Block 59.4 Pass Block 82.5

2020 - Rats RT - Run Block 73.0 Pass Block 76.7

2021 - Chiefs LT - Run Block 67.0 Pass Block 76.1

2022 - Chiefs LT - Run Block 69.1 Pass Block 77.2




So, Jonah's best run block in 2021 was better but Brown's worst pass block is better than all of jonah's pass blocks except for 2020. 

PFF has Jonah's overall grade in 2021 higher than any Brown overall grade. all im saying. There's no use in arguing

(04-13-2023, 04:15 PM)Joelist Wrote: In this thread we posted the PFFs for both players:

Jonah’s career numbers


2020 - Run Block 53.4 Pass Block 75.8

2021 - Run Block 79.8 Pass Block 68.8

2022 - Run Block 49.9 Pass Block 63.9

Brown’s career numbers

2018 - Rats RT - Run Block 61.8 Pass Block 73.5

2019 - Rats RT - Run Block 59.4 Pass Block 82.5

2020 - Rats RT - Run Block 73.0 Pass Block 76.7

2021 - Chiefs LT - Run Block 67.0 Pass Block 76.1

2022 - Chiefs LT - Run Block 69.1 Pass Block 77.2




So, Jonah's best run block in 2021 was better but Brown's worst pass block is better than all of jonah's pass blocks except for 2020. 

Exactly. There are 8 seasons there. 5 from Brown and 3 from Jonah
 
Pass Blocking: 
1. Brown, 2019, RT, 82.5 
2. Brown, 2022, LT, 77.2 
3. Brown, 2020, RT, 76.7
4. Brown, 2021, LT, 76.1 
5. Williams, 2020, LT, 75.8 
6. Brown, 2018, RT, 73.5 
7. Williams, 2021, 68.8  
8. Williams, 2022, 63.9 

Note Williams getting worse every year. Even throwing out last year due to the knee issues, 2021 was worse than 2020. Brown's eorst year was year 1. Last year was his 2nd best.

Run Blocking: 
1. Williams, 2021, 79.8 
2. Brown, 2020, RT, 73.0 
3. Brown, 2022, LT, 69.1  
4. Brown, 2021, LT, 67.0 
5. Brown, 2018, RT, 61.8 
6. Brown, 2019, RT, 59.4 
7. Williams, 2020, 53.4 
8. Williams, 2022, 49.9 

Brown's worst years were his first two, last 3 his best. Williams up and down. 

I say Jonah's 2021 is better than Brown's best year according to PFF(Fact)

people then respond by posting pass blocking grades, and telling me Im wrong

gotta love this place. Gotta love emotional fanatics

(04-13-2023, 06:08 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I say Jonah's 2021 is better than Brown's best year according to PFF(Fact)

people then respond by posting pass blocking grades, and telling me Im wrong

gotta love this place. Gotta love emotional fanatics

Fredtoast used to argue that Bobby Hart's pass block win percentage in 2019 meant he was a solid tackle too.... We didn't believe that either. 

The only reason Jonah's overall PFF score was high in 2021 was the slanting run blocking score and lets face it a huge part of that was because Quinton Spain was so very good at zone combo blocks. Even if you don't believe that part which is definitely true the Bengals have changed their rush scheme going forward from the wide zone in 2021. Do you really see Jonah Williams as a gap/power tackle? I know he might be the RT but damn that is not the scheme/position I would have drafted him to play in. 

(04-13-2023, 12:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: allowing zero sacks in the SB matters

“Put it on a ***** T-shirt”

:cool:

(04-13-2023, 06:01 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: PFF has Jonah's overall grade in 2021 higher than any Brown overall grade. all im saying. There's no use in arguing

Did you happen to check how they each graded in the playoffs that year? Or what their grades were combined in the reg and post season?

(04-13-2023, 06:08 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I say Jonah's 2021 is better than Brown's best year according to PFF(Fact)

people then respond by posting pass blocking grades, and telling me Im wrong

gotta love this place. Gotta love emotional fanatics

Except that's not a fact at all according to their premium stats. Across the board, when accounting for everything...Orlando's 2020 was objectively better than Jonah's 2021.

(04-13-2023, 09:30 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Except that's not a fact at all according to their premium stats. Across the board, when accounting for everything...Orlando's 2020 was objectively better than Jonah's 2021.

Jonah's 2021

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jonah-williams/41651?season=2021 (77.1)

Brown's 2020

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/orlando-brown/46227?season=2020 (76.5)

so when I look at overall grade, it says they have Jonah's 2021 better than Brown's 2020

and this is all im saying

(04-13-2023, 09:36 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Blanket statements like that don't make sense.

I think each year and each position would have to be looked at to see who was invited 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc because so many players decline to go play. Like, who declined and hownfar down the list was Brown? Same w Huntley. Notnsure you can weigh that all equally.

That being said... Has Jonah Williams ever been, like, the 3rd, 4th, 5th(?) best LT in the AFC Probowl voting and even been given the option to decline or play?

BTW, Orlando Brown was 1st selection to Probowl in 2022 AND 2021. That is WAY more valuable of a statement than Tyler Huntley being the 10th QB by default or whatever. It isn't reasonablento weight those 2 the same.

Meh pro bowls are still popularity contests even in that scenario.

(04-13-2023, 07:34 PM)Synric Wrote: Fredtoast used to argue that Bobby Hart's pass block win percentage in 2019 meant he was a solid tackle too.... We didn't believe that either. 

The only reason Jonah's overall PFF score was high in 2021 was the slanting run blocking score and lets face it a huge part of that was because Quinton Spain was so very good at zone combo blocks. Even if you don't believe that part which is definitely true the Bengals have changed their rush scheme going forward from the wide zone in 2021. Do you really see Jonah Williams as a gap/power tackle? I know he might be the RT but damn that is not the scheme/position I would have drafted him to play in. 

It's no secret that Jim Turner drafted guys who were more athletic than power to run his zone scheme.
Jonah Williams
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Adeniji

John Miller added in 2019 offseason but let go after 1 year because coaches didn't think he was good enough fit after all.
Spain was added midway through 2020 because Redmond was trash, but Spain performed worse under Turner in 2020 than he did under Pollack in 2021.


Pollack, while saying he wanted to run wide zone initially, has morphed the OL from a majority wide zone style to more of a gap/power style. And he's gotten more mauler-style guys on the OL to do it. Volson, Karras, Cappa, Collins, and now Brown all fit that mold.
Jonah and Adeniji are the last remnants of Jim Turner, and they will be gone after this season, if not before.

(04-13-2023, 10:30 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Meh pro bowls are still popularity contests even in that scenario.

Meh, deductive reasoning and critical thought aren't your thing. I enjoyed that you shared your opinion, though.

I like a Pro Bowler protecting Joes blindside. Makes me sleep better at night.

(04-14-2023, 12:15 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Meh, deductive reasoning and critical thought aren't your thing. I enjoyed that you shared your opinion, though.

I'm not going to use a lot of thought discussing Pro Bowls and their importance or lack thereof. Simply the fans having a say in anything (no matter the weight) immediately invalidates it.

Also Orlando Brown Jr > Jonah Williams, but i don't think they are super far off from each other given both are 100% healthy. They are both top 50% tackles. I worried about Jonah's knees though after this season and his general health throughout his career.

(04-14-2023, 12:15 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Meh, deductive reasoning and critical thought aren't your thing. I enjoyed that you shared your opinion, though.

Completely uncalled for. You’re a sensitive little fella, aren’t ya

(04-13-2023, 07:34 PM)Synric Wrote: Fredtoast used to argue that Bobby Hart's pass block win percentage in 2019 meant he was a solid tackle too.... We didn't believe that either. 

The only reason Jonah's overall PFF score was high in 2021 was the slanting run blocking score and lets face it a huge part of that was because Quinton Spain was so very good at zone combo blocks. Even if you don't believe that part which is definitely true the Bengals have changed their rush scheme going forward from the wide zone in 2021. Do you really see Jonah Williams as a gap/power tackle? I know he might be the RT but damn that is not the scheme/position I would have drafted him to play in. 

I don't.  However it seems that at least one poster seems to view Williams as a shorter, slower, squatty built version of Anthony Munoz. 

A lot of arguing over a player who may not even be on the roster come next season. I don't care what PFF really says, but if we have to use them then it would appear Brown has at the least been way more consistent than Jonah has been.