If hypothetically today if Orlando Brown and
Jonah Williams were available to be claimed
By 31 other NFL franchises and they could only
Choose either or, 31 teams would pick Brown over Williams. Brown does everything better than Williams
When Jonah has to face a top 10 DE , he get beats
Soundly. Example Myles Garrett. To be the best you have
Have to beat the best. Jonah does not check that box.

(04-14-2023, 09:27 AM)impactplaya Wrote: If hypothetically today if Orlando Brown and
Jonah Williams were available to be claimed
By 31 other NFL franchises and they could only
Choose either or, 31 teams would pick Brown over Williams. Brown does everything better than Williams
When Jonah has to face a top 10 DE , he get beats
Soundly. Example Myles Garrett. To be the best you have
Have to beat the best. Jonah does not check that box.

Most teams would pick up Orlando Brown, yes. But not every team. Run heavy teams that use a zone scheme would choose Jonah over Brown. A team like the 49ers for example

(04-13-2023, 05:59 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: the Bengals are popular NOW. They were on the rise in 2021. Plus Jonah does have all those sacks attributed to him in 2021, on a team that was known to have a garbage line. 

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jonah-williams/41651?season=2021

his overall grade for 2021 is 77.1

that's higher than any OBjr year. This is not a lie. Look at the website. 

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/orlando-brown/46227

now go through Brown's seasons and try to find his best year. Guess what? It isnt higher than 77.1

this is all Im saying. He's a good player. I'll take him over Jonah. Stop giving him credit for the pro bowls. 

- Fan vote is only 1/3rd of the PB voting. Players and Coaches are the other 2/3rds. To pretend that it's the MTV movie or Nickelodian Teen Choice awards or something is asinine

- Bengals in 2021 became immensely popular, which carried over into 2022. Williams got no PB push from anywhere. Not fans. Not players. Not coaches.

- As it has been pointed out to you numerous times, Jonah's PFF grade is slanted due to his being a better run blocker. It's a passing league.... Williams lead the league in sackes given up in 2022 and generall has poor pass blocking grades. His typical best day is NFL Average and is often injured.

- FUN FACT: 2022 Bengals ranked #6 in the NFL in passing attmpts per game https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/pass-attempts-per-game
Pass Blocking >>>> Run Blocking for the Bengals.

No one is ignoring run blocking as a trait that Brown needs to get better at. Perhaps Pollack's scheme fit will do that for him. Perhpas not. Given the trend of the league and the Bengals use of the pass, Brown is a huge upgrade over Williams for how the Bengals play ball, which is the only thing relevant in  any of these conversations.

(04-14-2023, 09:50 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Brown is a huge upgrade over Williams for how the Bengals play ball, which is the only thing relevant in  any of these conversations.

Convo killer!

(04-13-2023, 10:30 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Meh pro bowls are still popularity contests even in that scenario.

(04-14-2023, 06:43 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I'm not going to use a lot of thought discussing Pro Bowls and their importance or lack thereof. Simply the fans having a say in anything (no matter the weight) immediately invalidates it.

Also Orlando Brown Jr > Jonah Williams, but i don't think they are super far off from each other given both are 100% healthy. They are both top 50% tackles. I worried about Jonah's knees though after this season and his general health throughout his career.

Brown is a much better player than Williams when it comes to pass pro - which is relevant because the Bengals ranked 6th last year in pass attampts per game.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt for conversation's sake. This notion that the ProBowl is just a fan popularity contest is perpetuated by people not knowing how the voting actually works.

Pro Bowl voting is weighted by 3rds, not total votes, but weighted....

- 1/3rd is fans
- 1/3rd are players
- 1/3rd are coaches


So, if you won't listen to coaches or players, who will you listen to on this? How about the Bengals themselves when they jumped at the chance and were utterly gobsmacked when Brown approached them to join the team.... AFTER they had already agreed to give Jonah Williams $12mil to play LT. They literally had a starting LT with a GUARANTEED deal who had been w the team 4 seasons. The Bengals then told that LT, Williams, "Eh, we'll find a spot for you maybe, possibly, somewhere if you can beat out Cody Ford and a (probable) draft pick".

The Bengals saw Brown as instantly better, worth the money, and that Williams absolutely wasn't.

Will you listen to THAT voting? Brown is arguably a top 10 LT and certainly a top 15 TACKLE in general regardless of side in the entirety of the NFL. Certainly when it comes to pass pro he has been consistantly strong.

Ranked 28th overall Tackle before 2022 https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-offensive-tackle-rankings-tiers

Ranked 20th overall tackle in 2023 https://www.profootballnetwork.com/best-offensive-tackles-nfl-rankings/

Jonah Williams isn't even sniffing any of these dude's farts. Meaning: Not in the same room. He's just a dude. A dude now without a position and that no one - in a league dying for quality O linemen - is impressed with. Not even the team and coaches that drafted him and know him best. On top of that, he's refusing to work for a spot on the team and crying to leave. 

We should nickname him Jo"Meh" Williams

Pdub I got a notification that you responded back but for some reason I can’t access or see it. I’m gonna have to message Bengalholic

Summarize what you originally responded with

(04-14-2023, 09:33 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Most teams would pick up Orlando Brown, yes. But not every team. Run heavy teams that use a zone scheme would choose Jonah over Brown. A team like the 49ers for example

Hey, I was with you at the beginning in defending Jonah's play. He was good in 2021 in the Wide Zone scheme Turner implemented 
and Pollack inherited as Synric said earlier. Spot on by him BTW, but Jonah just doesn't fit here anymore as we are going to run the 
Power Gap scheme a bunch more with our new additions. 

Hopefully we can get a trade partner who run the zone a lot, like the 49ers, but they don't need a LT and that is why Jonah requested
a trade in the first place, to play LT. The Jaguars or Jets seem the most likely to me.

It'll be interesting to see if Williams shows up to voluntary offseason workouts. I can't see him making a big deal out of this but it would be nice to see if he is serious before the draft so we can better prepare if he is. Missing the work at RT during the offseason doesn't give me confidence that he will come in for training camp and lock the spot down. I'd feel better if he showed he was intent on winning the spot by showing up for OTA's etc.

The interesting thing is that the team ditching the wide zone has been in the cards since they signed Karras, Cappa and La'el Collins and since Volson became the LG. Orlando Brown Jr. really makes a shift in base scheme to Power Gap pretty evident.

If Jonah Williams and Orlando Brown Jr. squared off in a WWE style cage match, who would win?

(04-14-2023, 01:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Hey, I was with you at the beginning in defending Jonah's play. He was good in 2021 in the Wide Zone scheme Turner implemented 
and Pollack inherited as Synric said earlier....

Even in Williams "good" season of 2021 Williams still gave up 8 sacks which is twice as many as Brown in 2021 at 4.  In fact Brown has never given up more than 4 sacks in a season

(04-14-2023, 03:49 PM)jj22 Wrote: It'll be interesting to see if Williams shows up to voluntary offseason workouts. I can't see him making a big deal out of this but it would be nice to see if he is serious before the draft so we can better prepare if he is. Missing the work at RT during the offseason doesn't give me confidence that he will come in for training camp and lock the spot down. I'd feel better if he showed he was intent on winning the spot by showing up for OTA's etc.

His agent will be telling him to go all in at RT. Agent can and will see the reality of Jonah’s comparisons to other starting LT’s. I bet he’ll show for voluntary’s.

(04-14-2023, 04:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If Jonah Williams and Orlando Brown Jr. squared off in a WWE style cage match, who would win?

The viewing public?

(04-14-2023, 10:09 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Brown is a much better player than Williams when it comes to pass pro - which is relevant because the Bengals ranked 6th last year in pass attampts per game.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt for conversation's sake. This notion that the ProBowl is just a fan popularity contest is perpetuated by people not knowing how the voting actually works.

Pro Bowl voting is weighted by 3rds, not total votes, but weighted....

- 1/3rd is fans
- 1/3rd are players
- 1/3rd are coaches


So, if you won't listen to coaches or players, who will you listen to on this? How about the Bengals themselves when they jumped at the chance and were utterly gobsmacked when Brown approached them to join the team.... AFTER they had already agreed to give Jonah Williams $12mil to play LT. They literally had a starting LT with a GUARANTEED deal who had been w the team 4 seasons. The Bengals then told that LT, Williams, "Eh, we'll find a spot for you maybe, possibly, somewhere if you can beat out Cody Ford and a (probable) draft pick".

The Bengals saw Brown as instantly better, worth the money, and that Williams absolutely wasn't.

Will you listen to THAT voting? Brown is arguably a top 10 LT and certainly a top 15 TACKLE in general regardless of side in the entirety of the NFL. Certainly when it comes to pass pro he has been consistantly strong.

Ranked 28th overall Tackle before 2022 https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-offensive-tackle-rankings-tiers

Ranked 20th overall tackle in 2023 https://www.profootballnetwork.com/best-offensive-tackles-nfl-rankings/

Jonah Williams isn't even sniffing any of these dude's farts. Meaning: Not in the same room. He's just a dude. A dude now without a position and that no one - in a league dying for quality O linemen - is impressed with. Not even the team and coaches that drafted him and know him best. On top of that, he's refusing to work for a spot on the team and crying to leave. 

We should nickname him Jo"Meh" Williams

I'm only arguing the weight of Pro Bowl nominations.

Brown is definitely better than Jonah overall when you account for consistency and injuries and such. Now we may differ on whether or not Jonah can sniff Brown's farts in the consideration of them both being healthy, but I believe we both agree he's the better option.

Now one thing I am curious about depending on KC's lineup, but Brown has gotten to lineup next to Joe Thuney the last two years while Jonah lined up with scrubs and a rookie. I do think that makes some difference if you are playing next to a potential turnstile. 

Jonah was a no show at OTAs

In terms of run blocking, all 5 of Brown's seasons are superior to all of Jonah's save 2021. Last year? 69 to 49, Brown.

Brown has been to the post-season in all 5 of his years in the league. In FOUR of those post-seasons, he did not allow a sack. The only year he did allow a sack was 2021, and I believe both were against us (at least one was). Not just a clean SB, he has clean POs 80% of the time.

(04-17-2023, 01:41 PM)pally Wrote: Jonah was a no show at OTAs

Needs to get there so he can post the depth chart online or try to fight a coach.

(04-17-2023, 01:41 PM)pally Wrote: Jonah was a no show at OTAs

I don't blame him since he's in a contract year and probably doesn't want to risk an(other) injury.
But it sure would be nice if he was there trying to work at RT.
Oh well, more opportunity for Carman and Ford.

Trade for whatever you can get at this point. Him no showing offseason workouts should be the straw... He won't be ready to play RT with no offseason work at it. They have to cut losses.

(04-17-2023, 02:16 PM)jason Wrote: Needs to get there so he can post the depth chart online or try to fight a coach.

.


Jonah could sneak into the defensive end group and go up against Orlando in drills.

Try to teach Orlando and everyone else a lesson.