(06-09-2023, 02:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: True that Carman hasn't shown that he is better than Jonah yet and couldn't beat out Volson at Guard. I just think with what Carman 
finally shown at LT in the Playoffs, coming back in great shape ready to go and playing RT in OTA's and all TC and Preseason he very 
well could be looking better than Jonah by the time the regular season starts. 

It sure would be better for our future if this is the case than Jonah playing great one year at RT, leaving next year and RT still being a 
question because Carman still isn't good on the right side. I have backed up Carman since we drafted him, no time for me to jump ship 
to an oft injured Jonah off a poor season playing hurt, without an anchor moving to RT in a contract year.


Yep, I wouldn't be saying anything positive about Carman if he played poorly at LT and came in in bad shape in OTA's. But that didn't
happen thank God. Carman's anchor is significantly stronger than Jonah's and Carman is in OTA's in great shape after finally showing 
something good in the Playoffs while Jonah is still rehabbing even if he is squatting 600 pounds, he still has to be able to cut, move, 
and do all the things Sunset said.

Jackson Carman has the head start at RT and even La'el has been at OTA's with his teammates.

The anchor is a serious concern for me at RT.  It is a concern at LT, but you deal with more speed guys there and fewer bullrushers.  

I wouldn't say that Jackson has a head start, though, as Jonah will be given every opportunity to be the starter at RT.  I am just holding out hope that some team needs a LT desperately and they are willing to do a third round pick (or higher) for him.  The compensatory pick argument is weak to me as they are based on contract dollars and that pool has been so watered down with the additional compensatory picks for minority hires, etc.  And that pick wouldn't be until the 2025 draft, not 2024.  

Bottom line:  IMHO, Jonah is the RT barring some great trade offer from a desperate team.  If that is how they roll, I will fully support him, but I feel a lot better with Collins and Carman as the backups this year over Adeniji and Smith.  

(06-09-2023, 10:13 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Lineman looking good in shorts during preseason drills means absolutely nothing with both starting level OTs not participating. 

I disagree that Carman playing this year is better for our future.  If Carman starts this season and Jonah is on the bench we might get a 6th round comp pick. If Jonah starts and plays just average we get a 3rd. 

Chido has not been at OTA's either, so everyone needs to quit with that excuse to bash Jonah. 

I hope they both look great, but if it is remotely close give me Jonah and his experience giving us a better chance to win the SB AND get a high comp pick.  Carman still has next year and could be more affordable with only one season under his belt if we choose to extend him....


And to those who dont care about comp picks, an extra 3 this past draft could have given us any one of these players:

Saldiveri G/T
Freeland DT
Adebawore DT
Dawand Jones T
Zavala G
Roschon Johnson RB
Gaines G
McGuire DE

Guess that makes me feel better if we get a comp pick if Jonah plays well. Never really thought about that as we don't ever 
seem to hit on comp picks anyways. I am not getting on Jonah for not being at OTA's, nor Chido, it is all good. Just saying that
Carman being there with his teammates and getting work in is a good thing after his play in the Playoffs.

That was a rough loss to the Chiefs, but Carman was our best OL in that game IMO.

That is on the biggest stage. You are right, in shorts this means absolutely nothing, but Carman looked good in the games he 
started at LT. I cannot say the same for Jonah last season for the most part, he was pretty bad.

Getting all Offseason to get acclimated to Right Tackle I expect Carman to at the very least be solid depth, same with Jonah
and LC. We are in a good spot at Tackle for once.

(06-10-2023, 11:39 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: My opinion was Jonah lacked strength based on his weak pass blocking at time. An OL who while injured can squat 600 LBs. is a big deal. My guess is he also working on his upper body and core also.
Jonah's issues may be more technique related than strength. If so, if he builds hs strength and coaches help him fix technique issues there is hope for him and for us in 2023 and beyond.

I am happy with updates on Collins also and love Orlando Brown attitude thus far. If we develop a top 5 or even top 10 OL with our QB and our weapons, this team will be a force offensively.

Surprised Jonah lost his technique as that was his strength coming out of Bama. He was the most technically sound OL in his
class from most reports. Also happy with the LC updates and vids and how Orlando Brown has just fit in as a Bengal instantly.

Should be a great year to be a Bengals fan.

(06-10-2023, 11:42 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The anchor is a serious concern for me at RT.  It is a concern at LT, but you deal with more speed guys there and fewer bullrushers.  

I wouldn't say that Jackson has a head start, though, as Jonah will be given every opportunity to be the starter at RT.  I am just holding out hope that some team needs a LT desperately and they are willing to do a third round pick (or higher) for him.  The compensatory pick argument is weak to me as they are based on contract dollars and that pool has been so watered down with the additional compensatory picks for minority hires, etc.  And that pick wouldn't be until the 2025 draft, not 2024.  

Bottom line:  IMHO, Jonah is the RT barring some great trade offer from a desperate team.  If that is how they roll, I will fully support him, but I feel a lot better with Collins and Carman as the backups this year over Adeniji and Smith.  

We will see how good Jonah actually looks moving around once mandatories start. But yeah, we are in a much better place on the 
OL than last year by far. It is a great thing debating who we think is going to win the job and actually having quality depth at Tackle.

Yeah, comp picks don't mean much to me either.

(06-10-2023, 11:35 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't understand the first point you made.  Jonah's pass blocking rating was worse than Carman's over the entire season in what was the first two games EVER for Carman playing LT in the NFL.  The snow game might have had something to do with it, but he did very well against KC.  I think he was our highest rated linemen that game.  Again, this was his first two starts at LT in the NFL.

There is absolutely savings to be had, but Jonah would have to be traded for that to happen.  I thought I explained how my wish was that some desperate team would give the Bengals some equity for Williams.  

I come back to this point about Carman a lot:  I saw Andrew Whitworth struggle BIG TIME when he started playing OT.  He was MUCH older and more experienced, but struggled really badly.  Good thing for the Bengals they didn't give up on him so easily.  

Maybe Carman will shrink in the face of the competition.  Maybe he will rise.  Either way, my hope is still that he wins the job making Jonah expendable and the Bengals get something for him and can apply that savings to either contract extensions or another player.  

I don't spend much time being a cap-ologist, but I think one of the things this could allow is to give Tee a lot of his next contract in the form of a bonus, so his future dollars aren't hurting as much.  

I dont consider a 62 score as doing very well which was Carman's grade at KC especially since Jonah is considered terrible with 5 games graded above 71 and one at 83.  I do agree that Carman looked much better than he has in the past.

These are my issues:  
I do not trust Carman on the right side.  As of today I trust Jonah more.
I do not expect LC to be fully healthy and to be placed on the PUP list to start the season.
If LC is on the PUP I really prefer Jonah & Carman over Carman and Ford/Adeniji.
Unless we get a great offer Im not sure a mid round draft pick next year is worth risking a SB this season.

I would love to see Carman bust out and be a great player.  I have seen Jonah be bad and and very good, I've seen Carman be bad and ok.

I'm not sure we will have a better team than this one moving forward in the next several years... thus Im a tad risk adverse.

(06-10-2023, 02:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Guess that makes me feel better if we get a comp pick if Jonah plays well. Never really thought about that as we don't ever 
seem to hit on comp picks anyways. I am not getting on Jonah for not being at OTA's, nor Chido, it is all good. Just saying that
Carman being there with his teammates and getting work in is a good thing after his play in the Playoffs.

That was a rough loss to the Chiefs, but Carman was our best OL in that game IMO.

That is on the biggest stage. You are right, in shorts this means absolutely nothing, but Carman looked good in the games he 
started at LT. I cannot say the same for Jonah last season for the most part, he was pretty bad.

Just an FYI for everyone praising Carman's great KC game...

Carman VS KC:  OVR 62.3.  RBLK. 54.4.  PBLK.  64.7.  HIT.  1.  HURRIES.  2.   PRESSURES.   3

Week 13 vs KC:
Jonah VS KC:  OVR 71.3.  RBLK. 67.3.  PBLK.  72.0.  HIT.  0.  HURRIES.  0.   PRESSURES.   0


There is zero doubt Jonah played better vs KC this past season.  Recency bias perhaps?

(06-10-2023, 03:43 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I dont consider a 62 score as doing very well which was Carman's grade at KC especially since Jonah is considered terrible with 5 games graded above 71 and one at 83.  I do agree that Carman looked much better than he has in the past.

These are my issues:  
I do not trust Carman on the right side.  As of today I trust Jonah more.
I do not expect LC to be fully healthy and to be placed on the PUP list to start the season.
If LC is on the PUP I really prefer Jonah & Carman over Carman and Ford/Adeniji.
Unless we get a great offer Im not sure a mid round draft pick next year is worth risking a SB this season.

I would love to see Carman bust out and be a great player.  I have seen Jonah be bad and and very good, I've seen Carman be bad and ok.

I'm not sure we will have a better team than this one moving forward in the next several years... thus Im a tad risk adverse.

Completely agree.  And I get where you are coming from, but early on you didn't sound even open to the idea that it might be Carman.

It would take a REALLY strong showing from Carman AND a heck of a trade offer from another team for it to happen, but I have my fingers crossed.

(06-10-2023, 03:54 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Just an FYI for everyone praising Carman's great KC game...

Carman VS KC:  OVR 62.3.  RBLK. 54.4.  PBLK.  64.7.  HIT.  1.  HURRIES.  2.   PRESSURES.   3

Week 13 vs KC:
Jonah VS KC:  OVR 71.3.  RBLK. 67.3.  PBLK.  72.0.  HIT.  0.  HURRIES.  0.   PRESSURES.   0


There is zero doubt Jonah played better vs KC this past season.  Recency bias perhaps?

So now PFF is the be all end all?

Burrow himself said he felt no pressure from the left side that entire AFC Championship game.

We both have our biases here, you for Jonah and me for Carman. We will see who wins out.

Good times.

Huge Difference between Collins/Williams there/not there for OTA's.
If Collins gets hurt outside of the organization, then his salary isn't guaranteed like Jonah's is.

(06-11-2023, 12:58 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Huge Difference between Collins/Williams there/not there for OTA's.
If Collins gets hurt outside of the organization, then his salary isn't guaranteed like Jonah's is.

But playing in shorts means absolutely nothing. 

(06-11-2023, 12:32 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: So now PFF is the be all end all?

Burrow himself said he felt no pressure from the left side that entire AFC Championship game.

We both have our biases here, you for Jonah and me for Carman. We will see who wins out.

Good times.

It is not bias for me, it is trust. 

You are trusting a kid that:
- came in out of shape, has had some maturity issues
- couldn't win a spot for two years including getting beat out by a 4th round rookie from a 1AA school
- admitted he struggles on the right side
- has never played RT
- his great game vs KC was not nearly as good as Jonah's game vs KC in the same season

I'm trusting the guy that:
- was a 1st Rd pick and #1 rated OT in his draft
- locked in a starting spot Day 1 - never been beat out
- has started 3 seasons in the NFL & still very young
- is considered so much better than Carman by the coaches that they chose him with a bad knee over Jackson
- has actually played RT in the SEC

I expect Jonah, LC, and Carman to all be improved from last season. Jonah & LC due to improved health/mobility/strength and Carman from more experience and being in better shape. Volson should be better, too. 


I do not think we move Jonah unless we lose a guy at another position and need to fill a void. 


As is, we roll with our best RT option for another year & take the 2025 comp pick when he walks. But you never know, maybe he kills it and we let Collins go instead. 

(06-11-2023, 05:00 PM)casear2727 Wrote: It is not bias for me, it is trust. 

You are trusting a kid that:
- came in out of shape, has had some maturity issues
- couldn't win a spot for two years including getting beat out by a 4th round rookie from a 1AA school
- admitted he struggles on the right side
- has never played RT
- his great game vs KC was not nearly as good as Jonah's game vs KC in the same season

I'm trusting the guy that:
- was a 1st Rd pick and #1 rated OT in his draft
- locked in a starting spot Day 1 - never been beat out
- has started 3 seasons in the NFL & still very young
- is considered so much better than Carman by the coaches that they chose him with a bad knee over Jackson
- has actually played RT in the SEC

You are lying to yourself then. Jackson Carman had a hurt back and coming off surgery his rookie season, if there was a reason I 
didn't like the pick it was this, hard to stay in shape with a bad back and coming off of surgery. Jonah is constantly hurt and did not
play well last year and go ahead in trust in that if you will.

The coaches seem to have Carman as the front runner at RT right now, live in the now Casear. Our HC has said Carman has every 
chance to win the starting job and he is the starter right now. I hope Jonah gives him a run for the money, but with no anchor and 
still in re-hab it is an uphill battle for him. He will do his best to work his ass off to win the job no question which is only a good thing.

People who have no biases don't leave out the parts that discredit their opinion. Let the best man win, I think it will be Carman.

If not, I hope Jonah plays great. But we will need to Draft a RT next year in the first round or add a vet in FA. I don't trust in Cody 
Ford and if Carman cannot beat out Jonah who has not been playing well as of late he isn't the answer either.

(06-11-2023, 09:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You are lying to yourself then. Jackson Carman had a hurt back and coming off surgery his rookie season, if there was a reason I 
didn't like the pick it was this, hard to stay in shape with a bad back and coming off of surgery. Jonah is constantly hurt and did not
play well last year and go ahead in trust in that if you will.

The coaches seem to have Carman as the front runner at RT right now, live in the now Casear. Our HC has said Carman has every 
chance to win the starting job and he is the starter right now. I hope Jonah gives him a run for the money, but with no anchor and 
still in re-hab it is an uphill battle for him. He will do his best to work his ass off to win the job no question which is only a good thing.

People who have no biases don't leave out the parts that discredit their opinion. Let the best man win, I think it will be Carman.

If not, I hope Jonah plays great. But we will need to Draft a RT next year in the first round or add a vet in FA. I don't trust in Cody 
Ford and if Carman cannot beat out Jonah who has not been playing well as of late he isn't the answer either.

You are fooling yourself if you think the coaches have Carman as the front runner, assuming Jonah is healthy and expected to be on the roster.   

You are also extremely misguided if you want to blame his back on Carman's unpreparedness.  He has had maturity and lazy issues, he has had them since HS and also in college.   I fully expect him to be over those.  But there is zero evidence to suggest Carman is better than Jonah or that the coaches prefer Carman over Jonah.   The exact opposite exists.

As to your knock on the PFF scores comparing Jonah and Carman vs KC, you can ignore their rating but you cannot dismiss the fact that Jonah gave up zero Hits, zero Hurries and zero Pressures, while Carman gave up 1, 2, & 3.

(06-09-2023, 09:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Damn, hate to hear that. I have a bone spur on my right heel and went to get a consult about having it shaved down. The first thing the Dr said (or that I remember) is: "We'll go in there and cut your Achilles". I decided to live with the spur. 

The bone spur is not the problem. It is the result of the problem.

(06-10-2023, 03:54 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Just an FYI for everyone praising Carman's great KC game...

Carman VS KC:  OVR 62.3.  RBLK. 54.4.  PBLK.  64.7.  HIT.  1.  HURRIES.  2.   PRESSURES.   3

Week 13 vs KC:
Jonah VS KC:  OVR 71.3.  RBLK. 67.3.  PBLK.  72.0.  HIT.  0.  HURRIES.  0.   PRESSURES.   0


There is zero doubt Jonah played better vs KC this past season.  Recency bias perhaps?

Jonah also had two penalties against him in the week 13 game.   Carman had none in the AFC Championship Game.  

One thing is for sure:  Of all the backups on that offensive line, Carman had the best day by far.  Adeniji and Sharping struggled. 

(06-11-2023, 10:30 PM)casear2727 Wrote: You are fooling yourself if you think the coaches have Carman as the front runner, assuming Jonah is healthy and expected to be on the roster.   

You are also extremely misguided if you want to blame his back on Carman's unpreparedness.  He has had maturity and lazy issues, he has had them since HS and also in college.   I fully expect him to be over those.  But there is zero evidence to suggest Carman is better than Jonah or that the coaches prefer Carman over Jonah.   The exact opposite exists.

As to your knock on the PFF scores comparing Jonah and Carman vs KC, you can ignore their rating but you cannot dismiss the fact that Jonah gave up zero Hits, zero Hurries and zero Pressures, while Carman gave up 1, 2, & 3.

Given the Chiefs pu$$y schedule last year, they had such a head start on the #1 seed that I don't believe the team the Bengals saw in week 13 was the same as the team they saw in the AFCCG.  

And, again, that was his second start at LT in the NFL.  

Also, remember this isn't just about who is the best player.  Value has to be considered while trying to extend some key pieces.  

(06-12-2023, 09:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Given the Chiefs pu$$y schedule last year, they had such a head start on the #1 seed that I don't believe the team the Bengals saw in week 13 was the same as the team they saw in the AFCCG.  

And, again, that was his second start at LT in the NFL.  

Also, remember this isn't just about who is the best player.  Value has to be considered while trying to extend some key pieces.  

Wasn't the same team?   What does this even mean?   KC was simply skating in Week 13?  That does not make any sense to me whatsoever.  KC had a one game lead over the Bills at the time but Buffalo owned the tie breaker.


Value to extend pieces?  Jonah's salary is baked in and what extension is more important than winning a SB, with the understanding Burrow is underway regardless?

You guys are stanning hard for Carman but he is absolutely the underdog, IMHO.

(06-12-2023, 09:16 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Jonah also had two penalties against him in the week 13 game.   Carman had none in the AFC Championship Game.  

One thing is for sure:  Of all the backups on that offensive line, Carman had the best day by far.  Adeniji and Sharping struggled. 

I would take 2 penalties > Burrow being hit even once, not to mention the hurries and pressures.

Jonah is your starting RT for the Bengals.

Opening day, barring injury.

Book it.

(06-09-2023, 10:16 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I know it isnt, but that response makes it sound like your first OTA's.  

Both have injury rehabs going.  Trey had no injuries and didnt come last year...

I'd suggest we wait and see if Jonah shows up at mini camp next week before the baseless name-calling.  No doubt it may to be awkward for Jonah, at the least.

I don't really think he should be at ota's.  I'm just salty 99 percent of fans gave him a pass when his agent said he wanted a trade.  Had he been a WR everyone would've callled him a diva.  So now I feel I gotta call him a diva every chance I can since most gave him a pass