(10-14-2023, 12:57 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd say Hendrickson is better than just "top 10". Also, to say it's "not close" is a bit much. We're talking about a guy with 28 sacks in 36 games as a Bengal.

Nevermind all he's done in the playoffs, which is better than Atkins and Dunlap combined.


I don't think Hendrickson will be this dominant as long as Atkins was, but if he was, he'd be in the HOF conversation as well.

I'm just looking at it this way. There were times when Atkins carried the pass rush, and Hendrickson is very much doing the same thing.

As far as Dunlap, we can agree to disagree. Run defense is overrated, imo. The guys who get the most accolades are the guys bringing it to the QB's, and Hendrickson does that better than Dunlap did for the majority of his career. You can sub in a guy for the run.

I love those 2 dudes. Especially Atkins. I meant no disrespect to them, and I doubt they'd take a Trey Hendrickson comparison as an insult. The dude is a baller. I don't think his peak will last long, but it's as good as any peak I've seen, imo.

Getting the most accolades and being the most impactful are still two different things. That's like saying Fields is a top 10 QB because he was a great fantasy QB. Sacks is only part of a DEs job and Hendrickson is below average at the other part, run stopping. Geno was good at both. Like I said, I would take Hendrickson over Dunlap but to equate him to Geno is overeating him, at least in my opinion. 

(10-14-2023, 12:57 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't think Hendrickson will be this dominant as long as Atkins was, but if he was, he'd be in the HOF conversation as well.

I'm just looking at it this way. There were times when Atkins carried the pass rush, and Hendrickson is very much doing the same thing.

As far as Dunlap, we can agree to disagree. Run defense is overrated, imo. The guys who get the most accolades are the guys bringing it to the QB's, and Hendrickson does that better than Dunlap did for the majority of his career. You can sub in a guy for the run.

I love those 2 dudes. Especially Atkins. I meant no disrespect to them, and I doubt they'd take a Trey Hendrickson comparison as an insult. The dude is a baller. I don't think his peak will last long, but it's as good as any peak I've seen, imo.

The Bengals 5-13 record against the Browns and Ravens under Anarumo would disagree that run defense is overrated. Being able to stop the run (and in today's NFL being able to keep the QB contained) is still extremely important.

The Eagles nearly broke an all-time sack record... but couldn't get a single sack in the SB because they got ran all over by the Chiefs.

Also being a good run defender separates the great DEs from the elite DEs.

- - - - - 

I do think it is kind of a disrespect to pair the two up when you say he's just as impactful. Hendrickson is great, but there's a reason he's not an All-Pro, or why he wasn't ranked the 29th best player in the NFL by his peers like Atkins was. If we want people to take our players seriously as Hall of Fame candidates, we can't be comparing them to clearly lesser (even if great) players just because they're current and we like them.

Actually reminds me a bit of when people early were trying to say AJ Green was the best WR the Bengals have ever had. Like Chad wasn't arguably the best WR in the NFL for a 3 year span and a top-3 WR for a 5 year span. Not to say AJ wasn't great, he was, but Chad just reached a completely different peak.

(10-14-2023, 01:23 AM)TheFan Wrote: Getting the most accolades and being the most impactful are still two different things. That's like saying Fields is a top 10 QB because he was a great fantasy QB. Sacks is only part of a DEs job and Hendrickson is below average at the other part, run stopping. Geno was good at both. Like I said, I would take Hendrickson over Dunlap but to equate him to Geno is overeating him, at least in my opinion. 

Who are the top run defenders in the league? How much are they paid? Now who are the top pass rushers, and how much are they paid? I'm not alone on this opinion.

I feel like sacks are viewed as a "casual" stat, so some thumb their nose at sacks and point to pressures (also very important) and run defense (less important).

I'm not saying run defense doesn't matter. It very much does. I just view it as more of a team stat. One dude isn't typically going to stop the run on his own.

That said, one guy can get to the QB.

(10-14-2023, 02:15 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The Bengals 5-13 record against the Browns and Ravens under Anarumo would disagree that run defense is overrated. Being able to stop the run (and in today's NFL being able to keep the QB contained) is still extremely important.

The Eagles nearly broke an all-time sack record... but couldn't get a single sack in the SB because they got ran all over by the Chiefs.

Also being a good run defender separates the great DEs from the elite DEs.

- - - - - 

I do think it is kind of a disrespect to pair the two up when you say he's just as impactful. Hendrickson is great, but there's a reason he's not an All-Pro, or why he wasn't ranked the 29th best player in the NFL by his peers like Atkins was. If we want people to take our players seriously as Hall of Fame candidates, we can't be comparing them to clearly lesser (even if great) players just because they're current and we like them.

Actually reminds me a bit of when people early were trying to say AJ Green was the best WR the Bengals have ever had. Like Chad wasn't arguably the best WR in the NFL for a 3 year span and a top-3 WR for a 5 year span. Not to say AJ wasn't great, he was, but Chad just reached a completely different peak.

1. See what I said to TheFan about the run.

2. I'm not comparing their entire careers. Geno unquestionably had the better career. Especially when you factor his position. Hendrickson is likely to have a very short peak. That said, that's all I'm comparing. Their peaks.

If this is about who had a better career when all is said and done, it will be Geno, by a mile.

Hendrickson and Dunlap are two different style of players.

Hendrickson is a pure speed threat while Carlos is a unicorn type player. I don't know if you can really say which one is better because of that.

If I had to pick one it would be Dunlap because he impacted the game in all three areas. Run defense, Pass rush, and coverage( knocking down passes ).

(10-14-2023, 04:00 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2. I'm not comparing their entire careers. Geno unquestionably had the better career. Especially when you factor his position. Hendrickson is likely to have a very short peak. That said, that's all I'm comparing. Their peaks.

Yes, and at his peak Geno was....

1. 1st Team All-Pro
2. The 29th best player in the league according to his peers
3. The best player in the league at his position

...Hendrickson is none of those.

(10-14-2023, 11:20 AM)J24 Wrote: Hendrickson and Dunlap are two different style of players.

Hendrickson is a pure speed threat while Carlos is a unicorn type player. I don't know if you can really say which one is better because of that.

If I had to pick one it would be Dunlap because he impacted the game in all three areas. Run defense, Pass rush, and coverage( knocking down passes ).

He'd run guys down from behind too. A couple of pick 6's (pretty sure one was a game saving play vs the Colts) and at least one fumble recovery for a TD in his time here too.

(10-14-2023, 03:08 PM)jason Wrote: He'd run guys down from behind too. A couple of pick 6's (pretty sure one was a game saving play vs the Colts) and at least one fumble recovery for a TD in his time here too.

Yeah, Hendrickson is playing great this year, but the previous two years he had 32 and 34 total tackles which were the two highest of his career. Dunlap's highest were 63 and 66 tackles. It's not an insignificant difference in playing the run.

Hendrickson is still a great player and a great pass rusher, but he's not really a complete player which will always knock him down a notch. Dunlap isn't on their level as a pass rusher, but the elite complete players like Garrett and Twatt are also 50-60 tackle guys.

Ultimately that's another factor for me. At Atkins peak he was the best DT in the entire NFL. At Hendrickson's peak he's the 3rd best DE in the AFCN. That makes it awfully tough to argue they had the same impact.

(10-14-2023, 11:27 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yes, and at his peak Geno was....

1. 1st Team All-Pro
2. The 29th best player in the league according to his peers
3. The best player in the league at his position

...Hendrickson is none of those.

I already said Geno is better at his position, although I feel we're picking nits, here. Geno was 2nd at his position and Hendrickson is arguably top 5 at his. At LEAST top 8.

Again, I'm strictly talking impact, here. Atkins wasn't the best at his position. He was always behind Aaron Donald. Not the point, though.

We just have to agree to disagree and move on. If there's a huge gap between Atkins and someone with 28 sacks in 36 games and who also balled out in the playoffs, then I don't see it. Maybe a small gap, but a huge one? On impact? Nah, man.

We're fanboying a guy if we say that.

PFF Pass Rush Grade among edge defenders
(Factors in speed of wins, win rate, finishing plays, forced fumbles, drawing penalties, and more)

Myles Garrett 93.6
Nick Bosa 92.3
Trey Hendrickson 90.9
T.J. Watt 90.9
Micah Parsons 90.8
Maxx Crosby 90.7
Aidan Hutchinson 90.0

— Steve Palazzolo (@PFF_Steve) October 16, 2023

(10-16-2023, 04:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: ...Again, I'm strictly talking impact, here. Atkins wasn't the best at his position. He was always behind Aaron Donald. Not the point, though...

Atkins was either all pro 1st or 2nd team in 2011, 2012 and 2015.  Aaron Donald made his first all pro team in 2015.  Atkins was drafted a few years before Donald so you cant say Atkins was never the best at his position when the two player's careers dont completely line up.  Atkins was being named 1st team all pro while Donald was still in college so you cant say he wasnt the best at his position when Donald wasnt even in the league to compare Atkins to.

(10-16-2023, 10:25 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Atkins was either all pro 1st or 2nd team in 2011, 2012 and 2015.  Aaron Donald made his first all pro team in 2015.  Atkins was drafted a few years before Donald so you cant say Atkins was never the best at his position when the two player's careers dont completely line up.  Atkins was being named 1st team all pro while Donald was still in college so you cant say he wasnt the best at his position when Donald wasnt even in the league to compare Atkins to.

I knew someone would step in and point out that their careers didn't entirely overlap. 

Let's just leave Donald out of this and say that Atkins "only" won 1st team all-pro twice, so how many times was he the consensus #1 DT? Not often.

That said, you're not debating my overall point, here. There's not a huge gap between 2nd at your position and 5th at your position (apparently, PFF has Hendrickson 3rd this year, thanks, Pistons), and it was easier for Atkins to get recognition for that type of impact at the DT spot than it is for a DE to get recognition.

Imo, the best argument for Atkins is that getting pressure up the middle is better than edge pressure. I just don't see a huge gap in impact overall.

Also, as much as I loved Geno (he was my favorite defensive player, probably ever), he did have a lot of stretches where he went invisible. I don't feel that way about Hendrickson.

We are UNDERreacting to Trey Hendrickson .. absolute mad man.

Get him in the convo. @Bengals pic.twitter.com/kUb5gIUPcw

— Kay Adams (@heykayadams) December 13, 2023

Kay does make a pretty strong case.

I said it on twitter a few weeks ago, and I'll say it again here. Trey is the best free agent signing in Bengals history.

(12-14-2023, 01:56 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I said it on twitter a few weeks ago, and I'll say it again here. Trey is the best free agent signing in Bengals history.

I'm kinda partial to Bobbie Williams.

WTS, love Trey and he make take my #1 one day

The guy just keeps balling. He's sacked the QB in 11 of 13 games this year. He has 13.5 sacks with 4 games left.

(12-14-2023, 04:52 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The guy just keeps balling. He's sacked the QB in 11 of 13 games this year. He has 13.5 sacks with 4 games left.

Absolutely a great pass rusher. Likely the second best pass rusher I have ever seen in a Bengals uniform (Atkins). I do think we need to talk about him playing a bit fewer snaps, though, for the sake of the run defense.

Dunlap's run defense was trash his last season and half with us he cost us a couple of games in Taylor's first season due to his trash run defense that's why he got demoted and ultimately released the off the field stuff didn't help either. At the time I was willing to take Dunlap's side but when the rest of the starting defense started calling Dunlap out and taking the coaching staff side. Tre can take over a game I cant recall Dunlap ever taking over a game

(12-14-2023, 01:44 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

We are UNDERreacting to Trey Hendrickson .. absolute mad man.

Get him in the convo. @Bengals pic.twitter.com/kUb5gIUPcw

— Kay Adams (@heykayadams) December 13, 2023

Kay does make a pretty strong case.

Love Kay and love Trey THE MANIAC!!!

Trey is probably my favorite all time FA signing. I loved it then, love it now, and I hope to see him retire a Bengal. He is one of the best 4-3 ends out there and I was happy to see him sign that one year extension recently.

My ONLY gripe is that he plays exclusively at RE. Wish he was versatile enough to swap sides as needed or move inside (the man is built like an oak tree, why can't that translate to 3T on 3rd and longs?!).

Love me some Blackout Trey!

(12-14-2023, 03:08 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: Trey is probably my favorite all time FA signing. I loved it then, love it now, and I hope to see him retire a Bengal. He is one of the best 4-3 ends out there and I was happy to see him sign that one year extension recently.

My ONLY gripe is that he plays exclusively at RE. Wish he was versatile enough to swap sides as needed or move inside (the man is built like an oak tree, why can't that translate to 3T on 3rd and longs?!).

Love me some Blackout Trey!

That is the gripe with Trey not being to play all over the line. He just likes to abuse the LT it seems.