(11-27-2023, 07:19 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I would think they’re missing Bell even more against the run. With as much as they used to bring him down into the box.

Battle so far has shown that he can do it well-enough: not up to Vonn's level of course, but he will only get better.

(11-28-2023, 01:03 AM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: We keep saying these players will get better with more reps but at this point that's just the fan in us hoping that they do..The truth is some of these players will never have instincts and instincts can't be coached you either have them or you don't all the 40 times in the world won't change that..

(11-28-2023, 11:20 AM)J24 Wrote: Bates is having an All Pro season this year and is the best deep Safety in the game. So yes for a team that plays around 60% of their snaps in single High they miss Bates.

Ngl i knew we’d be worse but in no way did i think we’d give up this many explosive plays


This defense is ass lowkey

(11-27-2023, 05:50 PM)Wyche Wrote: I personally think these two will wind up better than the duo they're replacing.

That's quite a bold claim.

Jordan Battle: highest-graded rookie DB in the NFL for week 12 - 76.8 ? pic.twitter.com/AhjHH8SeAs

— PFF CIN Bengals (@PFF_Bengals) November 28, 2023

(11-28-2023, 12:46 PM)Tomkat Wrote: That's quite a bold claim.

It's entirely possible. 

I think we all expected some drop off after losing both Bates & Bell.

The kids will only get better.  

It's a constant transition every year.

(11-28-2023, 01:09 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: It's entirely possible. 

I think we all expected some drop off after losing both Bates & Bell.

The kids will only get better.  

It's a constant transition every year.

It is possible. But it'll likely be year 3 and 4 and they won't get the second contract, so we'll start all over if we don't draft their replacements soon. 

edit: Hill can get the 5th year option so maybe we'll get 2 top years out of him in year 4 and 5.

(11-28-2023, 12:46 PM)Tomkat Wrote: That's quite a bold claim.

(11-28-2023, 01:09 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: It's entirely possible. 

I think we all expected some drop off after losing both Bates & Bell.

The kids will only get better.  

It's a constant transition every year.

Yes....I certainly expected a dropoff. I also expect them to get better. The reason I say they could be better is because Hill is a better athlete than either of the predecessors. Battle has played big boy football on a national championship contender, under a HOF coach (see Bell at OSU). He ran a 4.55 and Bell a 4.53....their split 20 was identical, Bell a little faster in 10. Athletically, almost identical. Game reps to improve football acumen is all that's left. If they can take that leap, then play together for a few years, it's absolutely possible.

I wish they would use Hill like the Ravens use Hamilton. More as a Nickleback than a pure free safety! Would like to see him blitz more and utilized more in man coverage.

(11-28-2023, 02:28 PM)J24 Wrote: I wish they would use Hill like the Ravens use Hamilton. More as a Nickleback than a pure free safety! Would like to see him blitz more and utilized more in man coverage.

They do: they line him up everywhere

(11-28-2023, 01:17 PM)jj22 Wrote: It is possible. But it'll likely be year 3 and 4 and they won't get the second contract, so we'll start all over if we don't draft their replacements soon. 

edit: Hill can get the 5th year option so maybe we'll get 2 top years out of him in year 4 and 5.

Are you sure about that?  The Bengals signed Bell to his second contract, they just signed two LBs that they drafted to second contracts, extended the second contract of their best pass rusher.  I believe that it's the 3rd contract where the Bengals decide that it's time to go younger and cheaper.  Except for Bates, who seems to be living up to his merit of a top 5 at his position player, despite everyone who wanted to shit on him while he was still a Bengal.

(11-28-2023, 11:33 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Battle so far has shown that he can do it well-enough: not up to Vonn's level of course, but he will only get better.

I think missing Bell is not primarily from performance, but attitude and mentality. It's not really a tangible measurable thing, but it always felt like Bell brought some toughness and a physical attitude to the secondary. 

I am not under any delusions that he was the most athletic and talented player, but he was solid and seemed to bring the needed intangibles to the defense. He was a Captain, and while there's some bad undeserving Captains around the NFL, having a reliable full-time player who was an experienced starting veteran out there probably would have likely helped this season from a field-general and stability/calming standpoint.

(11-28-2023, 04:42 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I think missing Bell is not primarily from performance, but attitude and mentality. It's not really a tangible measurable thing, but it always felt like Bell brought some toughness and a physical attitude to the secondary. 

I am not under any delusions that he was the most athletic and talented player, but he was solid and seemed to bring the needed intangibles to the defense. He was a Captain, and while there's some bad undeserving Captains around the NFL, having a reliable full-time player who was an experienced starting veteran out there probably would have likely helped this season from a field-general and stability/calming standpoint.

When they say a guy will put his hat in the pile, Mike Hilton and Vonn Bell are my main examples



They don’t care if it’s all lineman in between them and a tackle they’ll HAPPILY risk a painful pancake to get a run stop


Jordan Battle appears to have that mindset as well






The issue with not tackling in camp is guys like Nick Scott can look good and start for 10 games because there is no way to grade tackling in camp.



I saw this in Battle from the jump and was one of the first ppl to say Scott had to be benched

(11-28-2023, 04:12 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: They do: they line him up everywhere

 Hamilton 320 slot snaps,  243 FS, 174 box, 45 D Line.
Hill- 115 slot, 425 FS, 140 Box, 25 D line . 

I would like to see him more in the slot!

(11-27-2023, 07:51 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Bates was too expensive with other bigger contracts coming up and Hill was drafted as his replacement, he is not playing bad and really this year is his 1st real action at safety,, Bates was not an all pro as a rookie....

I do think Bell was the one that got away... but Battle is starting to look like a real winner as 3rd round pick

No he wasn't. 

The Bengals are set up FINE against the cap. They could have easily paid him 16 million a year. They didn't want to guarantee the money. The guaranteed money is ALWAYS the issue with the Bengals. Its the same reason Higgins is going to walk. 

(11-27-2023, 07:51 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Bates was too expensive with other bigger contracts coming up and Hill was drafted as his replacement, he is not playing bad and really this year is his 1st real action at safety,, Bates was not an all pro as a rookie....

I do think Bell was the one that got away... but Battle is starting to look like a real winner as 3rd round pick

I mean I think we could have, but it was going to hamstring us somewhere.  One thing is certain, he was as good as he thought he was here.

And I agree, we should not have let Bell get away.  I think he would have had a big impact on our defense still and would have been the perfect person to train Battle.

(11-28-2023, 04:22 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Are you sure about that?  The Bengals signed Bell to his second contract, they just signed two LBs that they drafted to second contracts, extended the second contract of their best pass rusher.  I believe that it's the 3rd contract where the Bengals decide that it's time to go younger and cheaper.  Except for Bates, who seems to be living up to his merit of a top 5 at his position player, despite everyone who wanted to shit on him while he was still a Bengal.

They did sign Bell to his second contract, but it was on the cheap and he was sitting out with no interest in a year that most safety's were. If Hill and Battle develop like we hope, they won't be cheap, and given the FO doesn't value safety's, I don't think it's the same as the other positions you mentioned. Although I wouldn't say they valued LB's either but they did "pay" them. Although not market value. 

(11-27-2023, 05:29 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: We lost alot more than people understood at time with bell and bates..yesterday after the interception Pittsburgh faced a third and 6 at our 37 yard line, Lou tired of seeing the tight end kill us in zone played man coverage with dax matched up one on one with friermuth..Pittsburgh lined the tight end up in stack formation with a close alignment meaning dax wouldn't be able to get a jam because of how they aligned him..The tight end ran a simple out route right at the sticks for a 1st down, after watching the replay you could see dax hesitate while the tight end simply ran a speed out..

Dax stayed flat foot before reacting and still got there as soon as the ball got there which shows impressive speed..I want to see these guys develop more awareness from film study,because in that alignment even I would've been guessing out route..just hoping these guys can become more aware as they play more so in the future we can jump plays like that maybe a stop right there could've changed the outcome..

Yes, as Dax and Jordan study film they will get much better at seeing these things.

Really like the future with these guys. They both complement each other very well, similar to Bates and Bell honestly, but could 
be better. Dax has great athleticism with range, similar to Bates, he just needs to get better at reading the Offense. Battle is a 
good tackler with instincts, his knock is his athleticism, similar to Bell but he is still more athletic than Bell and is bigger.

(11-27-2023, 05:31 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

The Bengals have a special player on the rise with Jordan Battle.

Amongst NFL Rookie Safeties, Battle ranks first in:

? PFF Defensive Grade (80.8)
? PFF Run Defense Grade (83.4)
? PFF Tackling Grade (84.4)
? Tackles (22)
? Run Stops (9)
? Pressures (5)

Since becoming… pic.twitter.com/b7pfFe6QZ8

— Willie Lutz (@willie_lutz) November 27, 2023

If Lou can’t work with Dax and Battle that’s on him.

Great stuff Nicomo, thought Battle has been playing very well for a rookie.

I think by next season Lou should have these 2 as a top Safety duo. Takes a bit for young players to come around as we all know.

I don't think Lou just lost his stuff. He has done well with the young guys for the most part, it has actually been some of the vets 
this year that have been messing up and they need to get it fixed.

(11-27-2023, 05:50 PM)Wyche Wrote: I agree....but the OP has a point too. They're young, so some recognition isn't there just yet. I believe it will get there. That's what he's pointing out, or that's how I took it. Dax's speed and athleticism allowed him to get out there to defend the pass, had he recognized earlier, that same speed and athleticism may have allowed him to jump the route and potentially get a pick 6. I personally think these two will wind up better than the duo they're replacing. It's great to get them reps as a tandem going forward this year.

This is how I took it as well. Great post as usual Wyche. Getting these young guys a ton of reps is what is needed the rest of the
season. We need to prepare the young guys for the future and see what we have. I think we clearly have some special players in 
Daxton Hill and Jordan Battle. I also like Tycen Anderson, too bad about the injury, but he is also a good young player with talent.

I was upset when they let Bell walk, I understood letting Bates go. The secondary is pretty young now except for Hilton, so it is understandable they are not as good as the last few years. The hope is they will be much improved next year as they continue to get game experience.

My big issue/fear with the future of the defense is the DL/pass rush. Murphy showed something last game, but we cannot yet depend on him developing enough to be a large contributor next year. We can hope he does become that guy, but he has not showed enough yet for him to be counted on.

Reader is a FA and will be another year older. There are already whispers that he has lost a step this year. I cannot confirm or deny that, but regardless that means NT needs filled next year, and I don't think we have anyone on the roster to replace him. Hill is a decent 3-tech, so I am fine with him, but Carter hasn't shown much to be good depth. I think they need another 3-tech to help with the pass rush like when we had Ogunjobi.

I'm not sure how much money there will be this offseason to find players Reader's caliber to replace him, so they may try to just resign him to a 1-year deal if he is willing. Basically I worry about the depth and future of our DL. Outside Trey we have no pass rush and that makes the young secondaries job even harder.

(11-29-2023, 03:00 PM)jj22 Wrote: They did sign Bell to his second contract, but it was on the cheap and he was sitting out with no interest in a year that most safety's were. If Hill and Battle develop like we hope, they won't be cheap, and given the FO doesn't value safety's, I don't think it's the same as the other positions you mentioned. Although I wouldn't say they valued LB's either but they did "pay" them. Although not market value. 

He wasn't "sitting out", he was a free agent as his first contract with the Saints had expired. The Saints were up against the cap, and could not afford to make Bell a reasonable offer.  The Bengals signed him to his second pro contract, as an UFA.

(11-29-2023, 03:17 PM)Garrus Wrote: I was upset when they let Bell walk, I understood letting Bates go. The secondary is pretty young now except for Hilton, so it is understandable they are not as good as the last few years. The hope is they will be much improved next year as they continue to get game experience.

My big issue/fear with the future of the defense is the DL/pass rush. Murphy showed something last game, but we cannot yet depend on him developing enough to be a large contributor next year. We can hope he does become that guy, but he has not showed enough yet for him to be counted on.

Reader is a FA and will be another year older. There are already whispers that he has lost a step this year. I cannot confirm or deny that, but regardless that means NT needs filled next year, and I don't think we have anyone on the roster to replace him. Hill is a decent 3-tech, so I am fine with him, but Carter hasn't shown much to be good depth. I think they need another 3-tech to help with the pass rush like when we had Ogunjobi.

I'm not sure how much money there will be this offseason to find players Reader's caliber to replace him, so they may try to just resign him to a 1-year deal if he is willing.  Basically I worry about the depth and future of our DL. Outside Trey we have no pass rush and that makes the young secondaries job even harder.

This is why I hope we extend Reader for a year and add OL in Free Agency at both RT and LG.

Then we can add a top pass rusher and a 3-tech somewhat early if there are some special ones around like there should be.

I trust our DL coach in Hobby and Duke to draft DL more so than OL. Hopefully we bring in a good OL coach that knows OL 
and what he wants to do with the guys we have. Just make it fit, something is going on with the OL with their basics, this is 
on the OL coach IMO.

Back to the point though, we are good at Safety for the future on Defense it looks like, pass rushers are what we need and a
future NT and 3-tech. DL needs addressed. If we let Reader go, that is even a bigger hole.