(01-04-2024, 01:26 PM)casear2727 Wrote: This chart reveals:
X.  Throws to an Open Receiver (X Axis).
Only a slight difference between Burrow and Browning when it comes to throwing to an open receiver.  

Y.  Average Receiver Separation (Y Axis).
The big difference is how much Separation receivers actually have.  Joe & Jake are basically in the same offense, the difference is likely due to Joe's arm strength, timing, accuracy and ball-placement.

It is concerning how middle of the road we are even with Burrow. The Ravens could not have schemed any better, major reversal for them.

Separation isn't a WR metric, but it is a Scheme and QB metric.

I might be reading this incorrectly, but aren't your X/Y axis backwards?  X is receiver separation and Y is % throws to open receiver.

(01-04-2024, 04:09 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: This is pretty much my exact same thinking. No way to know where to give credit or blame. I guess in the end it all still has to end with Zac but more clarity would be nice. I also thought the same thing that Callahan should not like this situation because it's going to prevent him from getting HC jobs.

Brian’s good their offensive efficiency of points per play only 2 teams better in 21-22. Cincy finished 8th both years. Only KC & Bills finished higher both years. That’s the all important stat that’s meaningful.

(01-04-2024, 05:19 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Interesting deep dive 9 delay of game by the offense. 1 by the defense. All the delay of games with Joe as the QB. Also looked at previous years and we were middle of the pack.

Can't be accurate. Week 12, 2nd offensive drive of the game.

I only knew that one because I was checking Bengals timeouts called on their first offensive drives of a game and I saw it. They don't attribute delay of games to a player, so I would have to go through 16 gamelogs play-by-play in entirety to know the exact split of Burrow/Browning, and ain't nobody got time for that. 16 games first drives play logs was already pushing it for me caring. Lol

(01-04-2024, 05:22 PM)BleedNOrange Wrote: I might be reading this incorrectly, but aren't your X/Y axis backwards?  X is receiver separation and Y is % throws to open receiver.

That's what I said.



After i corrected it.... lol, good catch.

(01-04-2024, 05:40 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Can't be accurate. Week 12, 2nd offensive drive of the game.

I only knew that one because I was checking Bengals timeouts called on their first offensive drives of a game and I saw it. They don't attribute delay of games to a player, so I would have to go through 16 gamelogs play-by-play in entirety to know the exact split of Burrow/Browning, and ain't nobody got time for that. 16 games first drives play logs was already pushing it for me caring. Lol

Then they missed it in the log

Without getting to all of the X's and O's of it; bottom line, injuries played a significant role this season. The team's starting QB is down for most of the season. You completely miss in FA at TE. I had higher hopes for Smith. I figured between pedigree and just pure talent he would relish the chance to be a dog, I was wrong. Two top WRs in and out of the line-up all season. Backup QB barely gets a chance to develop a rapoir. We were stumbling and falling uphill from game one.

Bright side! We were the 2nd best screen team in the league right behind KC. Of course, that's what happens when a team's WR situation is dicey., Aka, you got to have at least 2 really good WRs or defenses just double and roll the coverage. The bright side is that by having to adjust it forced the offensive minds to adjust. Thus, next year when we are fully healthy it should give defenses more to deal with.
If it's good enough for Andy and Pat, it's probably not a bad thing for the Bengals.

Reader came in out of shape and was just getting going just before his injury, The two freshly paid LBs decided to take the year off. The Safeties are kids, and the D's best cover corner was coming off an ACL, while CTB got injured as well...There were some good things there as well, but that's for a different thread.

For me, it's mostly on the offensive line. They still aren't giving enough time for guys to separate. It's not ALL on them, I'm not trying to pile on the constant- whipping-boy OL room. But it's still NOT GOOD ENOUGH. And that falls on Frank's head. That falls on Zac's head. If you want to run wide zone in your running and passing schemes, then draft and sign accordingly. Stop signing guys just because they're an on-paper upgrade. They draft / sign RBs, WRs, and TEs that fit their schemes, but they consistently miss on linemen. It's maddening.

(01-04-2024, 05:40 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Can't be accurate. Week 12, 2nd offensive drive of the game.

I only knew that one because I was checking Bengals timeouts called on their first offensive drives of a game and I saw it. They don't attribute delay of games to a player, so I would have to go through 16 gamelogs play-by-play in entirety to know the exact split of Burrow/Browning, and ain't nobody got time for that. 16 games first drives play logs was already pushing it for me caring. Lol

I was off. We had Burrow (Az-Bills-Texas-Ravens) Jake (Ravens 2- Pitt 1- Indy 1) 9 games none. And 21-22 we were middle of the pack

https://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/delay-of-game?year=2023&view=log

It does seem like other teams receivers have far more separation than ours on average. Like our guy is three yards away when the catch is made. And it seems the middle is not utilized by the Bengals nearly as much as other teams do. How is JaMarr not catching passes on slants and crossers all day? Him catching the ball on the move is a nightmare for defenses. But then I have to think: they aren’t stupid. What am I missing?

Most pass attempts this season
608 Washington
605 KC
598 Cleveland
587 Cincinnati
587 Minnesota

Fewest rush attempts this season
342 Washington
346 NY Jets
353 Cincinnati
357 Seattle
371 Minnesota

234 more passes than runs. Both JB's have combined for 36 carries so far and most of those were pass drop backs that led to runs.

That's almost 15 more passes per game than rushes for a .500 team.

Nothing to add, just chiming in to say this a very interesting discussion (good thread Ceasar), and every post has some really good points and questions. This is why I don't waste much time anywhere else discussing the Bengals. Good show here folks.

Note that the only reason we aren’t toying with 70% pass is a couple of games where for whatever reason they actually showed balance. Add in our love of shotgun, tendencies that give the play away and our proclivity towards spread concepts and this is a nightmare offense to be a lineman for. Notice what happened when we actually changed up a bit and made the defense think - everything looked a lot better.

(01-05-2024, 02:30 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Most pass attempts this season
608 Washington
605 KC
598 Cleveland
587 Cincinnati
587 Minnesota

Fewest rush attempts this season
342 Washington
346 NY Jets
353 Cincinnati
357 Seattle
371 Minnesota

234 more passes than runs. Both JB's have combined for 36 carries so far and most of those were pass drop backs that led to runs.

That's almost 15 more passes per game than rushes for a .500 team.

Yeeesh. I forgot the 47 sacks, even Tanner Hudson has been sacked this year. That's about 18 more dropbacks than designed running plays per game. Pathetic.

(01-05-2024, 03:42 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Yeeesh. I forgot the 47 sacks, even Tanner Hudson has been sacked this year. That's about 18 more dropbacks than designed running plays per game. Pathetic.

Interesting factoid - of those 47 sacks 22 happened before the injury and 25 after. And of those 25 a LOT of them should be charged to Browning (slow reads, hanging on to the ball too long, etc.). This is where the injury is really unfortunate as it is distorting everything. 

(01-04-2024, 03:23 PM)Joelist Wrote: Caesars chart is a big symptom of the need to evolve the scheme on offense. As it stands with its emphasis on shotgun and spread offense concepts plus its predictability (especially on route designs) it is both easy to predict and a VERY difficult offense for ANY OL to be good in. We do need an injection of speed (some may be on the roster) and a back who consistently gets past the first guy but a lot is scheme too. We need better run pass balance and also more under center (it will never be majority because Burrow likes himself some shotgun) and also new route designs, all to make the offense less easy to predict.

I love everything that you said here.
I agree with essentially all of it.

I would love it if someone had a breakdown of all the routes ran by type for each receiver.
E.g. how many curls, how many slants, verts, posts, etc.

(01-04-2024, 02:41 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I cannot allow myself to be upset with Callahan and hope for a change at OC until Zac gives up play calling and the offense to Callahan. Zac is the offense mastermind, give Callahan a shot at running it and if he fails then can him, would be my approach.  Until then Callahan is simply a support piece.

(01-04-2024, 02:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And thus having 6 guys on the headset to collectively think up what plays to call has succeeded in making absolutely nobody to blame because none of them have gotten a chance on their own to prove or disprove themselves.

As far as OCs who don't call plays go, my opinion is that if they were actually a good OC they wouldn't let the meat of their job that determines if anyone thinks they're any good or not get taken away from them for any length of time. Imagine Sean Payton or Andy Reed being a non-playcalling OC for 5 years. It would never happen.

Great posts, all for a new OC, maybe the dude is already on the team in Brian Callahan that can take over the play calling and scheme
duties so we have one guy to give credit to or he can even have some accountability eh? I don't like this too many mind's business. 

(01-04-2024, 04:48 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: They ran a ton of motion when Burrow was healthy. I think I remember they were top 5 in the league with pre snap motion. 

A lot of it went away when Browning went under center. I think they limited the playbook quite a bit. 

Motion presnap helps the QB identify the defense.  Burrow is great at presnap reads, while Browning is more of your drop back and go through progressions, type.  

(01-05-2024, 05:48 PM)Whatever Wrote: Motion presnap helps the QB identify the defense.  Burrow is great at presnap reads, while Browning is more of your drop back and go through progressions, type.  

This

(01-05-2024, 05:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I love everything that you said here.
I agree with essentially all of it.

I would love it if someone had a breakdown of all the routes ran by type for each receiver.
E.g. how many curls, how many slants, verts, posts, etc.

(01-05-2024, 05:33 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great posts, all for a new OC, maybe the dude is already on the team in Brian Callahan that can take over the play calling and scheme
duties so we have one guy to give credit to or he can even have some accountability eh? I don't like this too many mind's business. 

That too many minds mantra has been totally blown out of the water. That’s not even talked about on the Bengals beat. Don’t know how that got so exaggerated

(01-05-2024, 09:34 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: That too many minds mantra has been totally blown out of the water. That’s not even talked about on the Bengals beat. Don’t know how that got so exaggerated

That sure is a good way to blow over our poor play calling without having anyone take any accountability....

I know it is more about execution in the end, but unpredictability is where it is at along with doing what works.

When you have multiple people calling plays and it is still predictable that is a problem.

At least if you have 1 OC calling the plays to go along with your QB and his checks and reads you can narrow down the problem.