(06-10-2015, 01:35 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: The fact that your #2 receiver wasn't even targeted should tell you everything you need to know about our WR corp his first few years in the league.  Going into 2012 Bess had more receptions than Green, Gresham, and Hawkins combined. 

That team also had a playmaker in Reggie Bush.   

And yet, in 2012...they outperformed Hartline, Bess & Fasano...who came in with a combined 13 years of experience. That's where this line of reasoning starts to fall apart. 

(06-10-2015, 01:14 PM)StripesNTN Wrote: Cam has nothing on Dalton when it comes to wins and stats

Cam Newton was drafted by a 2-14 team and put up record stats for a rookie including over 4,000 yards and 35 total TDs.  Stats?  Newton's got 'em...just sayin'.

(06-10-2015, 01:54 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: And yet, in 2012...they outperformed Hartline, Bess & Fasano...who came in with a combined 13 years of experience. That's where this line of reasoning starts to fall apart. 

Our QB also "outperformed" theirs by an 11 point spread.  Are you really arguing that Green, Hawkins, and Gresham was just so much better than those guys?  

(06-10-2015, 02:22 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Our QB also "outperformed" theirs by an 11 point spread.  Are you really arguing that Green, Hawkins, and Gresham was just so much better than those guys?  

I'd probably ask the guy that doesn't think Andrew Hawkins getting targets over Armon Binns makes a receiving corp any better.

Obviously you're the expert on NFL receivers if Binns = Hawkins.

(06-10-2015, 02:22 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Our QB also "outperformed" theirs by an 11 point spread.  Are you really arguing that Green, Hawkins, and Gresham was just so much better than those guys?  

Green, Hawk and Gresh were better. They combined for 212 catches, 2,620 yards and 20 tds. Hartline, Bess and Fasano had 176 catches, for 2,193 yards and 7 td's. So, there's no debate about which group performed better that year.


You might feel, that on paper, the Fins had a better group going into that year, but on the field...it didn't play out that way. Andy benefited from having a much more talented and athletic top 3 targets. 


Fwiw, I'm completely indifferent on Andy at this point. I don't think he's a good as some people believe, and he's definitely not bad as some make out. 

(06-10-2015, 02:45 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I'd probably ask the guy that doesn't think Andrew Hawkins getting targets over Armon Binns makes a receiving corp any better.

Obviously you're the expert on NFL receivers if Binns = Hawkins.

My entire point was that our #2 receiver wasn't even targeted for lack of skills.  That's how good our WR corp was over Miami's.

The Bengals thought so much of Hawkins, they forgot to tender him.  

(06-10-2015, 01:42 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Not really. Hawkins had 77 targets so he was pretty much the #2 receiver even though he was in the slot.

I'm not arguing saying that our receiving options were absolutely amazing in 2011 or 2012, but let's not make it sound like Armon Binns was a huge part of the Bengals' gameplan in those years. The Binns experiment lasted for around 6 weeks of the 2012 season and that's about it.

Binns only started 6 games in 2012, but don't forget that Brandon Tate got 3 starts as well. The rest of the starts went to very green versions of Sanu and MLJ. It wasn't a good situation. Before that, it was Jerome Simpson as the #2. The run game flat out sucked until last year really. I think the weapons around Andy were a bit overrated for the first 3 years (outside of AJ, of course).

(06-10-2015, 01:14 PM)StripesNTN Wrote: No, statistically Dalton is the best QB out of that draft. Cam has nothing on Dalton when it comes to wins and stats and CK has mediocre stats and had a fine D. Now? This year i see CK being below average, far below. Dalton should be above average and Cam average.

Definetly not comfortable saying Dalton is a better QB than Cam. 

Better mentally? Sure. Better as a tangible QB? Nope. 

(06-10-2015, 08:04 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Definetly not comfortable saying Dalton is a better QB than Cam. 

Better mentally? Sure. Better as a tangible QB? Nope. 

Agreed. I'd trade Dalton for Cam any day.

(06-10-2015, 08:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agreed. I'd trade Dalton for Cam any day.

And the Panthers would laugh at any offer that didn't include a first and one of our best players.

(06-10-2015, 08:47 PM)Stormborn Wrote: And the Panthers would laugh at any offer that didn't include a first and one of our best players.

Probably. I don't think that's an insult to Dalton as much as a compliment to Cam though.

He's their franchise right now.

(06-10-2015, 02:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Cam Newton was drafted by a 2-14 team and put up record stats for a rookie including over 4,000 yards and 35 total TDs.  Stats?  Newton's got 'em...just sayin'.

And Cam has regressed every year. Dalton has improved every year other than last year, and that was due to only one starting receiver being healthy all year last year (and he was the #3 on top of that).

(06-10-2015, 08:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Probably. I don't think that's an insult to Dalton as much as a compliment to Cam though.

He's their franchise right now.

No not at all. There's a difference between them and it should be duly noted.

Dalton can close the gap though.

(06-10-2015, 08:54 PM)Stormborn Wrote: No not at all. There's a difference between them and it should be duly noted.

Dalton can close the gap though.

From a production standpoint, as passers, no there's really not a big difference between them.

Physically, Cam is much better. Much better arm and he's obviously a great dual threat.

The ceiling for Cam is higher and I'd love to see what he could do with AJ and Jeremy Hill.

(06-10-2015, 09:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: From a production standpoint, as passers, no there's really not a big difference between them.

Physically, Cam is much better. Much better arm and he's obviously a great dual threat.

The ceiling for Cam is higher and I'd love to see what he could do with AJ and Jeremy Hill.

I said Cam's a much better tangible QB than Andy. Production wise, I can't knock Cam too much being he has been the run game and his Oline has been consistently terrible.

His #1 this year, despite having great games, was a drop machine as well, this was also the year they lost all his targets save for Olsen.

Obviously agree on the last statement, along with an Oline that is literally 3 times as good at least.

(06-10-2015, 09:10 PM)Stormborn Wrote: I said Cam's a much better tangible QB than Andy. Production wise, I can't knock Cam too much being he has been the run game and his Oline has been consistently terrible.

His #1 this year, despite having great games, was a drop machine as well, this was also the year they lost all his targets save for Olsen.

Obviously agree on the last statement, along with an Oline that is literally 3 times as good at least.

Cam has had multiple running backs that had over a 5.0 ypc. He also has had better weapons than Dalton too.

(06-10-2015, 09:13 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Cam has had multiple running backs that had over a 5.0 ypc. He also has had better weapons than Dalton too.

2011 was a good year for his backfield, not so great and consistent after that for J-Stew or Deangelo.

Steve Smith was awesome, but there's a reason I have no idea who Cam's number 2 in 2011-2013, well actually 2 reasons, I don't know the Panthers very well.

But even a casual fan knows there Oline outside of Khalil has been at best below average in pass pro, they're lucky Cam's an athletic freak.

In the end, if I'm given a choice to have Cam or Andy QBing this team this year, I'm picking Cam first because of his talent level.

(06-10-2015, 09:10 PM)Stormborn Wrote: I said Cam's a much better tangible QB than Andy. Production wise, I can't knock Cam too much being he has been the run game and his Oline has been consistently terrible.

His #1 this year, despite having great games, was a drop machine as well, this was also the year they lost all his targets save for Olsen.

Obviously agree on the last statement, along with an Oline that is literally 3 times as good at least.

I agree, but for every Cam excuse, there's one for Dalton as well. AJ essentially missed 5-6 games, Sanu led the NFL in drops (more than Benjamin despite fewer targets), and Olsen is way better than Gresh. Our run game was better though, no doubt.

I honestly think both QB's are prime rebound candidates. Dalton will have healthy receivers and Cam will have a more experienced Benjamin (who is a great talent, despite the drops) to go along with Funchess and an improved o-line. They also drafted a RB in the 5th round who could wind up helping.

Obviously we agree that Cam is better than Dalton, I guess we just disagree by how much. 

(06-10-2015, 09:21 PM)Stormborn Wrote: 2011 was a good year for his backfield, not so great and consistent after that for J-Stew or Deangelo.

Steve Smith was awesome, but there's a reason I have no idea who Cam's number 2 in 2011-2013, well actually 2 reasons, I don't know the Panthers very well.

But even a casual fan knows there Oline outside of Khalil has been at best below average in pass pro, they're lucky Cam's an athletic freak.

In the end, if I'm given a choice to have Cam or Andy QBing this team this year, I'm picking Cam first because of his talent level.

Brandon Lafell was their #2, and he just won a SB last year with the pats (he had over 1k yards not even being their #1). He has had Gregg Olson too, who imo is one of the best TEs in the league. His running backs have been waaaay better than ours. Last year was the only year that Cam didn't have that great of a run because of injuries.

(06-10-2015, 09:26 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree, but for every Cam excuse, there's one for Dalton as well. AJ essentially missed 5-6 games, Sanu led the NFL in drops (more than Benjamin despite fewer targets), and Olsen is way better than Gresh. Our run game was better though, no doubt.

I honestly think both QB's are prime rebound candidates. Dalton will have healthy receivers and Cam will have a more experienced Benjamin (who is a great talent, despite the drops) to go along with Funchess and an improved o-line. They also drafted a RB in the 5th round who could wind up helping.

Obviously we agree that Cam is better than Dalton, I guess we just disagree by how much. 

Eh, I think Cam is good, but I would disagree with him being better than Dalton. I think Cam is a lot of hype. He has regressed every year, and he's only had better stats than Dalton his rookie year. On top of that he's been working with better talent, and a much softer division.

I don't think Dalton is a whole lot better than Cam, but I think Dalton is slightly better.