What happened to big play Chase? In 2021 the guy was electric. Big plays everywhere and really the lightning rod of our offense. While he’s still been really good the last two years his big plays are way down. Does anyone know why? In my view it seems like we use him way too much on shorter stuff. I don’t have a clue why we don’t take deep go routes to him atleast 4 times a game. 75 percent of the time he’s either going to bring it down or draw a penalty. Just wondering if the film junkies have a legitimate answer for this. Hoping this staff wakes up and uses him like the Ferrari he is and stops trying to make him a possession reciever. We can’t pay the guy 30 mil a year to catch 7 yard passes all day. Trenton Irwin can handle that.

Looking at his longest plays each game he did still have a decent amount of big ones.

30+ yards - 7x
40+ yards - 4x
60+ yards - 3x

For comparison’s sake Tyreek had:

30+ yards - 8x
40+ yards - 6x
60+ yards - 2x

(01-12-2024, 08:27 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Looking at his longest plays each game he did still have a decent amount of big ones.

30+ yards - 7x
40+ yards - 4x
60+ yards - 3x

For comparison’s sake Tyreek had:

30+ yards - 8x
40+ yards - 6x
60+ yards - 2x

I think that for some fans, if he's not burning the defense for 2 long TDs/game, it just isn't happening at all.    However, those electrifying long TDs are actually the result of several conditions all coming together at the same time.  He has to clearly be open (usually the easiest to achieve), other receivers have to draw enough attention from the defense to put Chase in single coverage, and the QB has to have enough time to sell that he's throwing a different direction before turning and hitting the wide open Chase in stride.

(01-12-2024, 06:14 AM)ClarkHarris4Prez Wrote: What happened to big play Chase? In 2021 the guy was electric. Big plays everywhere and really the lightning rod of our offense. While he’s still been really good the last two years his big plays are way down. Does anyone know why? In my view it seems like we use him way too much on shorter stuff. I don’t have a clue why we don’t take deep go routes to him atleast 4 times a game. 75 percent of the time he’s either going to bring it down or draw a penalty. Just wondering if the film junkies have a legitimate answer for this. Hoping this staff wakes up and uses him like the Ferrari he is and stops trying to make him a possession reciever. We can’t pay the guy 30 mil a year to catch 7 yard passes all day. Trenton Irwin can handle that.

well he takes some of those 7 yard passes and turns them into huge gains.  The goal is just to get the ball in his hands.  -1 yard or 10 yards or 30 yards down the field.

(01-12-2024, 08:27 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Looking at his longest plays each game he did still have a decent amount of big ones.

30+ yards - 7x
40+ yards - 4x
60+ yards - 3x

For comparison’s sake Tyreek had:

30+ yards - 8x
40+ yards - 6x
60+ yards - 2x

That's a weird way to determine things. 

2023 Tyreek Hill: 29 catches of 20+ yards, 9 catches of 40+ yards
2023 Ja'Marr Chase: 14 catches of 20+ yards, 4 catches of 40+ yards
2022 Ja'Marr Chase: 9 catches of 20+ yards, 3 catches of 40+ yards
2021 Ja'Marr Chase: 22 catches of 20+ yards, 8 catches of 40+ yards

As Xeno mentioned, I think it's also a matter of Chase isn't getting those yards through the air like in 2021, but after the catch. 

2023 Tyreek Hill: 9.6 yards before the catch
2023 Ja'Marr Chase: 6.8 yards before the catch
2022 Ja'Marr Chase: 7.0 yards before the catch
2021 Ja'Marr Chase: 9.9 yards before the catch

He went from a special player to just a very very good one.

(01-12-2024, 06:14 AM)ClarkHarris4Prez Wrote: What happened to big play Chase? In 2021 the guy was electric. Big plays everywhere and really the lightning rod of our offense. While he’s still been really good the last two years his big plays are way down. Does anyone know why? In my view it seems like we use him way too much on shorter stuff. I don’t have a clue why we don’t take deep go routes to him atleast 4 times a game. 75 percent of the time he’s either going to bring it down or draw a penalty. Just wondering if the film junkies have a legitimate answer for this. Hoping this staff wakes up and uses him like the Ferrari he is and stops trying to make him a possession reciever. We can’t pay the guy 30 mil a year to catch 7 yard passes all day. Trenton Irwin can handle that.

As another alluded to, he is.

This year he was

Tied for 9th in 40+
Number 7 in catches that went for first down

The first 4 weeks was abysmal, if you recall.
Then chase also played with a backup QB, the back 3rd of the season.

It just wasn’t our year.

Teams are also still running a shell against our passing game. I don’t think anyone is going to let 1 on 1 deep happen against Chase going forward.

(01-12-2024, 10:05 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That's a weird way to determine things.

2023 Tyreek Hill: 29 catches of 20+ yards, 9 catches of 40+ yards
2023 Ja'Marr Chase: 14 catches of 20+ yards, 4 catches of 40+ yards
2022 Ja'Marr Chase: 9 catches of 20+ yards, 3 catches of 40+ yards
2021 Ja'Marr Chase: 22 catches of 20+ yards, 8 catches of 40+ yards

As Xeno mentioned, I think it's also a matter of Chase isn't getting those yards through the air like in 2021, but after the catch. 

2023 Tyreek Hill: 9.6 yards before the catch
2023 Ja'Marr Chase: 6.8 yards before the catch
2022 Ja'Marr Chase: 7.0 yards before the catch
2021 Ja'Marr Chase: 9.9 yards before the catch

He went from a special player to just a very very good one.

I wasn’t really trying to dive that deep tbh. Just glanced at their game logs to see longest plays.

Obviously the guy with 1800 yards had a lot more of them.

In 2021 Defensive Coordinators attacked Joe Burrow like they do every young QB with little starting experience they threw their entire blitz package at him which created more 1 on 1 opportunities for Chase outside.

In 2022 Defensive Coordinators changed it up and strategically blitzed while playing alot more cover 2 shading Chase. They were taking away those big plays and forcing Burrow to drop read and take every yard rhe defense gives him. The Bengals did a good job moving Chase around to create matchups and get him YAC.

Now the issue with 2022 is that because they seen more cover 2 than any other team in the NFL is that box was light they usually seen 7 or 6 1/2 men in the box. They should have been able to create explosive run plays which would put more guys in the box and giving Chase those 1 on 1 outside matchups again.


All in all if you want to see more downfield long sideline throws the Bengals have to create more explosive plays in the rush offense.

He kept talking smack before games and then got shut down.  He stirred the hornets nest.  Haha.

Seriously though, it's a combination of many things, including...  

• Burrow was only healthy for maybe 3-4 games this year.  Browning did a good job filling in but that Burrow/Chase connection is special.
• Combine that with OL struggles, especially early in the year, and we all about quick/short passes.  
• Higgins had a tough year staying healthy so defenses could put help on Chase's side
• We don't really have that explosive WR that can stretch defenses
• We don't really have someone that feeds in the middle of the field (i.e. TE).  
• We had no real run game to pull the safeties to the line.  We didn't have a 100 yard rusher until the last game!
  

Zac's offense also let's the opposing Defenses dictate their playcall.

They don't impose their will like they should be able to with all the "weapons".

So we are left with bubble screens.

Defenses adjusted, play more cover two and cloud shells, and don't let him over the top as much on designed routes.

A lot of his big plays now are off-script stuff with Burrow. That's life accross the entire NFL right now - defenses are really selling out to limit big plays.

(01-12-2024, 10:33 AM)Synric Wrote: In 2021 Defensive Coordinators attacked Joe Burrow like they do every young QB with little starting experience they threw their entire blitz package at him which created more 1 on 1 opportunities for Chase outside.

In 2022 Defensive Coordinators changed it up and strategically blitzed while playing alot more cover 2 shading Chase. They were taking away those big plays and forcing Burrow to drop read and take every yard rhe defense gives him. The Bengals did a good job moving Chase around to create matchups and get him YAC.

Now the issue with 2022 is that because they seen more cover 2 than any other team in the NFL is that box was light they usually seen 7 or 6 1/2 men in the box. They should have been able to create explosive run plays which would put more guys in the box and giving Chase those 1 on 1 outside matchups again.


All in all if you want to see more downfield long sideline throws the Bengals have to create more explosive plays in the rush offense.

So much this great post

I wonder how Hill is still able to get open deep so often still when other WRs are not able to. Is it really just his speed?

(01-12-2024, 10:33 AM)Synric Wrote: In 2021 Defensive Coordinators attacked Joe Burrow like they do every young QB with little starting experience they threw their entire blitz package at him which created more 1 on 1 opportunities for Chase outside.

In 2022 Defensive Coordinators changed it up and strategically blitzed while playing alot more cover 2 shading Chase. They were taking away those big plays and forcing Burrow to drop read and take every yard rhe defense gives him. The Bengals did a good job moving Chase around to create matchups and get him YAC.

Now the issue with 2022 is that because they seen more cover 2 than any other team in the NFL is that box was light they usually seen 7 or 6 1/2 men in the box. They should have been able to create explosive run plays which would put more guys in the box and giving Chase those 1 on 1 outside matchups again.


All in all if you want to see more downfield long sideline throws the Bengals have to create more explosive plays in the rush offense.

I was gonna be snarky and say that nobody can counter the cover 2 shell, but ol Synric here laid it out in detail.

(01-12-2024, 11:06 AM)Garrus Wrote: I wonder how Hill is still able to get open deep so often still when other WRs are not able to. Is it really just his speed?

Achane and Mostert taking care of business on the ground. Tyreek is a freak, and McDaniel is really good at his job too.

(01-12-2024, 11:06 AM)Garrus Wrote: I wonder how Hill is still able to get open deep so often still when other WRs are not able to. Is it really just his speed?

Synric touched on it above but it is the Miami run game that plays a huge part here. Against Cincinnati, teams can set in split safety looks all day because what is Cincinnati going to do about it? It's exactly what Kansas City did a few weeks ago and the Bengals barely averaged three yards per carry. The strategy when a team sits in two high is to run them out of it. Cincinnati can't do that, so teams play lighter boxes with deep safeties to prevent big plays.

Against Miami, you have Mostert and Achane terrorizing defenses. They had the best run game in the league with 2300 yards at 5.1 YPC and 27 TDs. You can't sit in a split safety look, so you are forced to drop one down which opens up the possibilities of explosives down the field. Miami also motions Hill a lot so he is already moving pre-snap and yes, he is absurdly fast and quick. Also, he's just a really good receiver. He knows where the holes are in the defense and has the athleticism to get there. 

Also, the Chiefs had a strong run game when Hill was there as well, so similar story. 

(01-12-2024, 11:06 AM)Garrus Wrote: I wonder how Hill is still able to get open deep so often still when other WRs are not able to. Is it really just his speed?

The 'fins also have Waddle, who is also a 4.3 guy.  It's a lot easier to take away one deep threat when the rest of your skill guys are slow by NFL standards.  NFL DC's respect Rodney Dangerfield more than they respect Boyd.  

(01-12-2024, 11:58 AM)Whatever Wrote: The 'fins also have Waddle, who is also a 4.3 guy.  It's a lot easier to take away one deep threat when the rest of your skill guys are slow by NFL standards.  NFL DC's respect Rodney Dangerfield more than they respect Boyd.  

Cooks speed probably helped Lamb in Dallas this season, too. He took a hell of a jump.

(01-12-2024, 10:39 AM)BleedNOrange Wrote: He kept talking smack before games and then got shut down.  He stirred the hornets nest.  Haha.

Seriously though, it's a combination of many things, including...  

• Burrow was only healthy for maybe 3-4 games this year.  Browning did a good job filling in but that Burrow/Chase connection is special.
• Combine that with OL struggles, especially early in the year, and we all about quick/short passes.  
• Higgins had a tough year staying healthy so defenses could put help on Chase's side
• We don't really have that explosive WR that can stretch defenses
• We don't really have someone that feeds in the middle of the field (i.e. TE).  
• We had no real run game to pull the safeties to the line.  We didn't have a 100 yard rusher until the last game!
  

I've  been pleading for this front office to draft a true burner
To make defenses pay dearly for doubling Chase and Higgins. Irwin is never going to take a hitch route, break 
A tackle and take it for a big YAC. 
This WR room needs a Marquis Brown / Tank Dell type 

(01-12-2024, 11:26 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Synric touched on it above but it is the Miami run game that plays a huge part here. Against Cincinnati, teams can set in split safety looks all day because what is Cincinnati going to do about it? It's exactly what Kansas City did a few weeks ago and the Bengals barely averaged three yards per carry. The strategy when a team sits in two high is to run them out of it. Cincinnati can't do that, so teams play lighter boxes with deep safeties to prevent big plays.

Against Miami, you have Mostert and Achane terrorizing defenses. They had the best run game in the league with 2300 yards at 5.1 YPC and 27 TDs. You can't sit in a split safety look, so you are forced to drop one down which opens up the possibilities of explosives down the field. Miami also motions Hill a lot so he is already moving pre-snap and yes, he is absurdly fast and quick. Also, he's just a really good receiver. He knows where the holes are in the defense and has the athleticism to get there. 

Also, the Chiefs had a strong run game when Hill was there as well, so similar story. 

Achane had 800 yards and 8 TD's on only 103 carries, which is insane.

The 'fins have speed all over that offense and multiple guys that can score a TD from anywhere on the field.  Defenses have to respect that.