(01-11-2024, 02:27 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: *raises hand*

Now, I wasn't gung-ho, "OMG HE'S TEH GOATZ," but as a fan, I did give him the benefit of the doubt and a long leash (and maintained that you need 3-5 years to evaluate).

And I'm not trying to bring it back for malicious purposes, but, we all remember this thread...: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Hey-Zac-pay-attention-to-Kliff-Kingsbury?

Yeah, I was of the "have a little patience" mindset myself. I saw some things that looked interesting, but execution was terrible. Plus that original oline of his ....yikes!

(01-12-2024, 01:25 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Zac would most likely want a different OL coach. The FO are the ones who brought Pollack back.

Then the FO needs to let Zac pick his OL coach is my vote.

(01-12-2024, 10:56 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Keeping it to just 2010 and more recent...

Nick Siriani + Jalen Hurts - no.
Sean McVay + Jared Goff - Super Bowl appearance, traded Goff.
Doug Pederson + Carson Wentz - Super Bowl victory led by Nick foles.
Chuck Pagano + Andrew Luck - not even close.
Sean McDermitt + Josh Allen - um, no.
Kyle Shanahan + Jimmy G (Jimmy G had 2 starts before going to the 49ers) 
Pete Carroll + Russell Wilson (Pete Carroll only coached a couple years in the NFL like 11 years prior).
- - -
DeMeco Ryans + CJ Stroud this year are likely putting themselves on this list too. 
(Mike McDaniel + Tua is TBD but probably currently not here.)


Zac and Burrow have certainly had some real success, but it's not unprecedented or unmatched or anything. Gotta keep getting better, not worse.

How could you say they got “worse” with the injuries?

Pete Carrol and Russel Wilson is the best comp. Allen has never been to a SB. Jalen hurts has regressed this year, so unless you think they are somehow better, while being “worse”… Andrew luck and pagono never got to a Super Bowl.

Most of those examples you listed would be a better comp to Josh Allen/bills. In addition to this, the bengals (prior to ZT) had refused to do some of the stuff (dome, ring of honor, etc) that are beyond the football field. Call it cheap or something else, but the reality is Zac has taken a team that hadn’t won a playoff game in 30 years to a super relevant franchise year in and year out. And yes, much of that is due to burrow. Sirianni inherited a, not to long ago, Super Bowl roster. You can’t say the same for Zac.

This is going to shock a lot of folks:

There's an element in here that over-values Joe and undervalues Zac. Both are very good at what they do.

(01-12-2024, 06:17 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: How could you say they got “worse” with the injuries?  

Pete Carrol and Russel Wilson is the best comp.  Allen has never been to a SB.  Jalen hurts has regressed this year, so unless you think they are somehow better, while being “worse”…  Andrew luck and pagono never got to a Super Bowl.

Most of those examples you listed would be a better comp to Josh Allen/bills.  In addition to this, the bengals (prior to ZT) had refused to do some of the stuff (dome, ring of honor, etc) that are beyond the football field.  Call it cheap or something else, but the reality is Zac has taken a team that hadn’t won a playoff game in 30 years to a super relevant franchise year in and year out.  And yes, much of that is due to burrow.  Sirianni inherited a, not to long ago, Super Bowl roster.  You can’t say the same for Zac.

Because if you miss the playoffs and finish last in the division, that's worse than making the playoffs and winning the division. Overall they were one of the healthiest teams in the NFL yet even if you ignore the offense, their defense became an absolute shitshow and somehow their punting went from bad to atrocious.

- - - - - - - -

Allen has never been to a SB, but he's been to an AFC Championship, he's 63-30, has 5 straight double digit win seasons, 5 straight playoff seasons, and 4 straight division titles. He's also thrown 17 TD to 4 INT in the postseason so it's not like he's been a schmuck there.

Jalen Hurts has literally been dealing with injury all season and yet your first line is how can you say they got worse with the injuries. Lol.. 34-17 record, went to and lost a Super Bowl same as us, finished higher in MVP vote than Burrow, higher in OPOY vote, and was 2nd Team All-Pro over Burrow (though I personally think Burrow should have gotten it). Siriani won Coach of the Year. As a side note to the SB roster bit, that SB was in 2017 and the Eagles went back in 2022. That's a long time in the NFL and a lot of roster churn. Only 3 of the 22 guys started both of those games for the Eagles. Think about who was still on the Bengals roster from like Week 1 2016 to our SB appearance in 2021 (just 1 starter, CJ Uzomah).

Andrew Luck started his career with 3 straight 11 win seasons, winning their division twice and went to an AFC Championship. No SB, but no losing season to start his career either. It's not exact, but comparable.  Luck's first 4 years: 35-20, 3 winning seasons.  Pagano also won Coach of the Year.

You didn't even mention Pederson and Wentz or McVay and Goff, or Shanahan and Jimmy G... all three also went to SBs, with Pederson winning one.

- - - - - - -

Zac has done good things, I think a couple of the franchise things you mentioned are indeed him bringing some much needed changes, but also I think a couple are just coinciding with Mike Brown handing over more control of the team. All the talk about Zac making them a "relevant franchise" is literally word-for-word what people said about Marvin Lewis. Heck, someone just like a day or two ago on here defended Marvin for "turning the franchise around". Not saying that Zac is Marvin, so don't get it twisted. I am just saying that those exact words have been said before and it carried us through a whole window where the team was talented enough to win a SB but didn't and then that window closed, so you can't let them blind you.

My whole point was just because playoff wins were new to most of our fans (and they sure are a lot of fun!), doesn't mean what has happened is as unprecedented as you were trying to make it sound. Since 2010 there's been at least 7 other instances even with the fairly strict criteria of inexperienced HCs and inexperienced QBs teaming up and having quite a bit of success.

I've been on record for a couple years now that I think Zac is a good HC. I just don't think he's a great one and I wish he would give up playcalling duties to focus on trying to be a great HC. I only have the Bill Belichick picture in my signature because Bill is the greatest HC of all time and I never thought that the greatest HC of all time would be just out there and available to hire. People say he only won 6 SBs as a HC because of Brady? That's fine with me, we have a Burrow, so lets win 6 because of Burrow. Lol.

(01-12-2024, 07:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Because if you miss the playoffs and finish last in the division, that's worse than making the playoffs and winning the division. Overall they were one of the healthiest teams in the NFL yet even if you ignore the offense, their defense became an absolute shitshow and somehow their punting went from bad to atrocious.

- - - - - - - -

Allen has never been to a SB, but he's been to an AFC Championship, he's 63-30, has 5 straight double digit win seasons, 5 straight playoff seasons, and 4 straight division titles. He's also thrown 17 TD to 4 INT in the postseason so it's not like he's been a schmuck there.

Jalen Hurts has literally been dealing with injury all season and yet your first line is how can you say they got worse with the injuries. Lol.. 34-17 record, went to and lost a Super Bowl same as us, finished higher in MVP vote than Burrow, higher in OPOY vote, and was 2nd Team All-Pro over Burrow (though I personally think Burrow should have gotten it). Siriani won Coach of the Year. As a side note to the SB roster bit, that SB was in 2017 and the Eagles went back in 2022. That's a long time in the NFL and a lot of roster churn. Only 3 of the 22 guys started both of those games for the Eagles. Think about who was still on the Bengals roster from like Week 1 2016 to our SB appearance in 2021 (just 1 starter, CJ Uzomah).

Andrew Luck started his career with 3 straight 11 win seasons, winning their division twice and went to an AFC Championship. No SB, but no losing season to start his career either. It's not exact, but comparable.  Luck's first 4 years: 35-20, 3 winning seasons.  Pagano also won Coach of the Year.

You didn't even mention Pederson and Wentz or McVay and Goff, or Shanahan and Jimmy G... all three also went to SBs, with Pederson winning one.

- - - - - - -

Zac has done good things, I think a couple of the franchise things you mentioned are indeed him bringing some much needed changes, but also I think a couple are just coinciding with Mike Brown handing over more control of the team. All the talk about Zac making them a "relevant franchise" is literally word-for-word what people said about Marvin Lewis. Heck, someone just like a day or two ago on here defended Marvin for "turning the franchise around". Not saying that Zac is Marvin, so don't get it twisted. I am just saying that those exact words have been said before and it carried us through a whole window where the team was talented enough to win a SB but didn't and then that window closed, so you can't let them blind you.

My whole point was just because playoff wins were new to most of our fans (and they sure are a lot of fun!), doesn't mean what has happened is as unprecedented as you were trying to make it sound. Since 2010 there's been at least 7 other instances even with the fairly strict criteria of inexperienced HCs and inexperienced QBs teaming up and having quite a bit of success.

I've been on record for a couple years now that I think Zac is a good HC. I just don't think he's a great one and I wish he would give up playcalling duties to focus on trying to be a great HC. I only have the Bill Belichick picture in my signature because Bill is the greatest HC of all time and I never thought that the greatest HC of all time would be just out there and available to hire. People say he only won 6 SBs as a HC because of Brady? That's fine with me, we have a Burrow, so lets win 6 because of Burrow. Lol.

I have only got through the first portion, but the eagles didn’t win the division.
Just an FYi.

(01-12-2024, 10:08 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: I have only got through the first portion,  but the eagles didn’t win the division.  
Just an FYi.

Don't see where I said they did.

(01-12-2024, 12:03 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: FIFY because this is what you really wanted to say Mr. Anti-Zac

You can't make a post without mentioning him.

(01-12-2024, 12:20 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Joe plays a part in this for sure.  That said, if we are being 100% honest, Joe has not been a world beater in the playoffs.  

Since Zac arrived:
Name free agents are coming
Practice bubble
Ring of honor
Multiple deep playoff runs

This does coincide with burrow, but name me another combo of essentially rookie HC and rookie QB that has had this much success this quick.

In the nfl world, most of the tim, its  the combo that makes the great teams.  

Let’s also not kid ourselves into thinking Cincinnati has ever, in my lifetime,  been a destination job for the best proven candidates either, for many reasons.  Zac may have changed that in the future as well.

The entire offense were not world beaters in the playoffs. Defense flipped another of games, and Evan hitting the last minute field goals. Burrow and Chase we world beaters prior to wearing orange and black. And the since he arrived thing is a bit off. Remember, we sucked bad enough to draft Burrow and then to draft Chase. Neither were rookies in the playoffs and even Zac wasn't in his sophomore year. 

I think you meant to say big name free agents, but I don't think any were big names, at all. Collins and Apple washed. Respected, good players like Hill and Hendrickson, but no one imagined what they did. Did a number have a big impact? Absolutely, but let's not act like we got top ten free agents signed. Nick Scott can go be a parking lot security guard.

(01-13-2024, 10:23 AM)Destro Wrote: You can't make a post without mentioning him.

You can’t say a positive thing about him lol. Stalemate

not saying I want Vrabel to coach Cincy, but he's an ideal head coach for the AFC North.

not saying I want the team to ditch Zac, but Vrabel is a very good head coach

(01-13-2024, 12:30 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: not saying I want Vrabel to coach Cincy, but he's an ideal head coach for the AFC North.

not saying I want the team to ditch Zac, but Vrabel is a very good head coach

My hot take: Vrabel lands a job Callahan interviewed for and Callahan returns to the Bengals.

(01-12-2024, 02:31 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Then the FO needs to let Zac pick his OL coach is my vote.

If you ask some people Zac apparently singlehandedly got us an indoor practice facility, got us to spend money on FA, got us a ring of honor. Why would getting his choice of OL Coach suddenly be the one thing he can't get?

(01-13-2024, 12:40 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: My hot take: Vrabel lands a job Callahan interviewed for and Callahan returns to the Bengals.

I’d imagine that Kraft was worried about losing Jerod Mayo. Had to be a part of that decision making on parting with Belichick. Vrabel I’m shocked he wasn’t a target. However his lack of embracing analytics and losing his last 18 of 24 doomed him. He wanted more control at the Titans and the Pats are trying to give their next head coach a lot less control than what Belichick enjoyed. But as you watch around the league player drama, front office drama & ownership drama the Bengals never have any.

(01-13-2024, 02:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: If you ask some people Zac apparently singlehandedly got us an indoor practice facility, got us to spend money on FA, got us a ring of honor. Why would getting his choice of OL Coach suddenly be the one thing he can't get?

No doubt. I've noticed the biggest issue with Zac is that folks around here give him TOO MUCH credit. 

I think many here are mistaken, if Zak wanted a new oline coach we would have one. Our front office cannot be so stupid as to overrule Zac regarding a position coach whose unit has been an issue for multiple seasons. Mike Brown isn't remotely as involved as he was just a few years ago in day-to-day operations and Jackson Carman basically ended Mike Brown's control in the draft room.

If I had to guess, firing Pollack isn't the problem but locating an excellent replacement might be.

(01-13-2024, 02:29 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I’d imagine that Kraft was worried about losing Jerod Mayo. Had to be a part of that decision making on parting with Belichick. Vrabel I’m shocked he wasn’t a target. However his lack of embracing analytics and losing his last 18 of 24 doomed him. He wanted more control at the Titans and the Pats are trying to give their next head coach a lot less control than what Belichick enjoyed. But as you watch around the league player drama, front office drama & ownership drama the Bengals never have any.

There were no other candidates.  Mayo had a clause entered in his contract last season that he would be the HC in waiting.  Belichick fully endorsed it.

(01-13-2024, 12:26 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: You can’t say a positive thing about him lol. Stalemate

He seems to be a nice guy

(01-13-2024, 04:02 PM)Destro Wrote: He seems to be a nice guy

Future HOF

(01-13-2024, 03:28 PM)casear2727 Wrote: There were no other candidates.  Mayo had a clause entered in his contract last season that he would be the HC in waiting.  Belichick fully endorsed it.

Didn’t know that. Smart of him.