(01-23-2024, 02:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Come on now Sunset. He touched the ball 3 times that year and 0 times in the playoffs. Blaine Gabbert completed 3x as many passes that year as Hudson caught and nobody is using Blaine Gabbert having a SB ring as some kind of boost to his viability as a starter. That's like Jeremy Hill bragging about his SB ring.

But I wasn't trying to boost his viability as a starter, I said that I felt that he'd earned a shot to compete.  I want a better TE1, weather it be a signed FA or a drafted rookie.  I just also see the value of having Drew Sample and Tanner Hudson on the roster as well.

Nothing was stopping Tyler Boyd from being the number 2 WR this year.

(01-23-2024, 02:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: But I wasn't trying to boost his viability as a starter, I said that I felt that he'd earned a shot to compete.  I want a better TE1, weather it be a signed FA or a drafted rookie.  I just also see the value of having Drew Sample and Tanner Hudson on the roster as well.

I agree with you as usual Sunset. We should add a better TE1, but I also would like to keep both Hudson and Sample. Hudson is good at finding 
openings in Zone and Sample is about the best blocking TE in the NFL and when he lines up in the back field, he is good at protecting the QB.

Both add value as backup TE's.

(01-23-2024, 01:51 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yep. Look at the 4 teams left in the playoffs.

Chiefs - Kelce
Ravens - Andrews
Lions - LaPorta
49ers - Kittle

I know Andrews has been hurt but I’m seeing a common factor here. An elite TE is such a huge weapon in today’s game.

Yep... And Likely is no bum in Baltimore either.

(01-23-2024, 02:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I think Boyd could top 700 yards easily as the #2. But I think we move on and go with youth in the Draft for our #2 WR of the future
while tagging Tee.

I agree and while it may look like it, I am not beating the drum to make Boyd the #2.

Just a "What if".

What if Veteran Boyd stays as either the #2 or #3 and it is TEE that gets moved in a Trade ?

Maybe Boyd stays the #3 and the Bengals sign a #2 Free Agent or Draft a soon to be #2 while Trading TEE.

Will Boyd flat out be gone -or- Will the Bengals make him an offer that he accepts ?  (either with TEE here or without)

It is my response to most thinking that he is no longer going to be a Bengal.  They are probably right but what if ...

(01-23-2024, 02:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: But I wasn't trying to boost his viability as a starter, I said that I felt that he'd earned a shot to compete.  I want a better TE1, weather it be a signed FA or a drafted rookie.  I just also see the value of having Drew Sample and Tanner Hudson on the roster as well.

Then why disagree with me when I was disagreeing with Essex who considers himself a believer that Hudson is our answer at TE? If Hudson could compete against a signed veteran for TE1, then we're admitting we signed a terrible veteran and just wasted money. No Irv Smith Jr part 2s, please. I don't want our starting TE to be the 5th best TE in the division with a healthy gap between them and 4th.

I don't hate Hudson or Sample on the roster for depth. Key word being or. I don't like having both because then you've just nearly recreated the 2023 TE room as you're only likely going to have 3 guys active on gameday and you're likely not going to have a guy you paid in FA (both of them are FAs) a healthy scratch. I want some roster churn at the position to make it actually look different. Give me a veteran with proven production and a rookie with potential both along with one of those two guys.

(01-20-2024, 04:19 PM)depthchart Wrote: Not saying that I want Tyler Boyd as the #2 wide receiver - just Curious.


Say the Bengals offer 29 year old Tyler Boyd a Robert Woods level contract (2 years $15,250,000) give

or take & Boyd accepts wanting to stay with the Bengals. (or some other Contract offer that he accepts to stay)

TEE Higgins is either Traded -or- stays with the Bengals & gets hurt forcing Tyler Boyd into the #2 role

because say other receivers on the Team are just not handling it as well as he is. (or one of them gets hurt)


Just how well to you think Tyler Boyd would perform in 2024 at #2 wide receiver in terms of yards ?

(See the yardage options on the POLL)

Player, O snaps, rec/yds/td, targets, PFF

Chase: 890, 100/1,216/7, 145, 85.3
Boyd: 824, 67/667/2, 98, 59.5
Higgins: 574, 42/656/5, 76, 72.1 

Boyd played 250 more snaps than Higgins.Only 22 more targets. Only 19 more yards. 3 fewer TDs than Tee. He WAS WR2 last year. He just wasn't as productive. 

(01-23-2024, 03:56 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Player, O snaps, rec/yds/td, targets, PFF

Chase: 890, 100/1,216/7, 145, 85.3
Boyd: 824, 67/667/2, 98, 59.5
Higgins: 574, 42/656/5, 76, 72.1 

Boyd played 250 more snaps than Higgins.Only 22 more targets. Only 19 more yards. 3 fewer TDs than Tee. He WAS WR2 last year. He just wasn't as productive. 

I agree that Boyd is not as good of a #2 as TEE at this stage of Boyd's career.  Boyd won't be offered $20 plus million per year.


If the Bengals planned to Trade TEE, couldn't they sign Boyd as their #3 receiver while also having him

as a fallback #2 (temporarily) while say a high round rookie gets developed to be the #2 ?

-OR-

If the Bengals planned to Trade TEE, Boyd comes back as an experienced Veteran #3 with a Free Agent brought in 

as the new #2 ?   (say Calvin Ridley for example for $15 or so million per year on a shorter deal than TEE may want)


*Do you see the Bengals making Boyd some type of decent offer to come back -or- do you see Boyd as Flat gone ? (TEE here or not)

(01-23-2024, 05:13 PM)depthchart Wrote: I agree that Boyd is not as good of a #2 as TEE at this stage of Boyd's career.  Boyd won't be offered $20 plus million per year.


If the Bengals planned to Trade TEE, couldn't they sign Boyd as their #3 receiver while also having him

as a fallback #2 (temporarily) while say a high round rookie gets developed to be the #2 ?

-OR-

If the Bengals planned to Trade TEE, Boyd comes back as an experienced Veteran #3 with a Free Agent brought in 

as the new #2 ?


*Do you see the Bengals making Boyd some type of decent offer to come back -or- do you see Boyd as Flat gone ? (TEE here or not)

I am saying Boyd had a down year. His productivity going down was not the product of him being underutilized. It is a product of him losing a step and having a career high in drops. 

He shouldn't be anywhere near WR2. And I'd be looking to draft a more dynamic/younger guy as a replacement at WR3. I'd  tend to bet on Jones/Yoshi before paying Tyler. But if we end up in a situation where we have $$ to burn and could not land a big impact FA at DT or elsewhere, I'm OK with him at WR3. But I don't think he is good value. 

(01-23-2024, 12:13 PM)depthchart Wrote: So Tyler Boyd's best season in 2019 of 1,046 yards when he was around 25 years old is tarnished & "bad" because he had 148 targets.

He should have been cut the next year ?   -or-   Sent to the Practice Squad based on 2019 Targets

Is it always the receiver's fault that a Target is not successful ?

You may be hanging way too much on "Targets" as the be all and end all.  I do think that it is one indicator to be considered with others.

12.4 yards per Catch in 2021 and 13.1 yards per Catch in 2022   then down around 10 yards per Catch in 2023 (Burrow Calf & Browning)

At 29 years old, Boyd could have some value.   Likely #3 WR value.

I do think that he could be used for a year to hold down a #2 role while other areas of the Team were built up. (say OT. DT, RB, Corner, TE)

Would making Boyd the #2 be my first choice ?  No       But what if the Bengals did do it as part of some larger Plan where TEE is Traded ?

*TEE Higgins best year 110 Targets with 1,091 yards.  Were TEE's yards per Target special during his best season ?  BIG Money special ?

I'm not saying it's bad.  I'm saying there's lots of mediocre WR's on bad teams that put up 1k yards by virtue of being the best WR on a bad team that's playing from behind all the time.  There's plenty of Darnell Mooney's, DJ Chark's, Kenny Golladay's out there.  Just like all 1000 yard rushers aren't equal, neither are all 1000 yard receivers.  

Didn't say that at all.  

No stat is perfect for WR comps.  However, yards/target is infinitely better than yards/reception because it actually includes yards/reception.  Yards/catch is much easier to get a false evaluation off of.  If a guy gets 100 targets and only catches one pass for 20 yards, his yards/catch will be 20, which is outstanding.  However, his yards/target indicate that the guy sucks 

It's not always the WR's fault an individual target doesn't work out, just like it's not necessarily outstanding if they get a catch.  If a defender falls down, there's a busted coverage, the D is in prevent, etc, the receiver still gets credit even though they did very little.

Throwing stats out the window, what does Boyd bring to the table?  Even in his prime, he was an ineffective boundary receiver and had to be put in the slot.  Is he a deep threat?  No, not unless there's a busted coverage.  Jump ball threat?  No.  Smart?  We literally had to do away with the choice routes he was running because he constantly misread the coverage and the ball kept getting picked off.  RAC threat?  No.  Sure handed?  We used to be able to say that, but last year shakes that confidence?  Clutch?  Hxll to the naw!  No DC sweats being able to stop Boyd.  You trot him out at WR2 against the Ravens and Harbaugh will laugh and tell Marlon Humphrey to follow him everywhere and erase his sorry xss like he used to before we got Tee and Chase. 

The only reason I can see anyone wanting Boyd back next year is they bought his jersey and are self-conscious about being "that guy" sporting a non-current player's jersey m

(01-23-2024, 06:57 PM)Whatever Wrote: I'm not saying it's bad.  I'm saying there's lots of mediocre WR's on bad teams that put up 1k yards by virtue of being the best WR on a bad team that's playing from behind all the time.  There's plenty of Darnell Mooney's, DJ Chark's, Kenny Golladay's out there.  Just like all 1000 yard rushers aren't equal, neither are all 1000 yard receivers.  

Didn't say that at all.  

No stat is perfect for WR comps.  However, yards/target is infinitely better than yards/reception because it actually includes yards/reception.  Yards/catch is much easier to get a false evaluation off of.  If a guy gets 100 targets and only catches one pass for 20 yards, his yards/catch will be 20, which is outstanding.  However, his yards/target indicate that the guy sucks 

It's not always the WR's fault an individual target doesn't work out, just like it's not necessarily outstanding if they get a catch.  If a defender falls down, there's a busted coverage, the D is in prevent, etc, the receiver still gets credit even though they did very little.

Throwing stats out the window, what does Boyd bring to the table?  Even in his prime, he was an ineffective boundary receiver and had to be put in the slot.  Is he a deep threat?  No, not unless there's a busted coverage.  Jump ball threat?  No.  Smart?  We literally had to do away with the choice routes he was running because he constantly misread the coverage and the ball kept getting picked off.  RAC threat?  No.  Sure handed?  We used to be able to say that, but last year shakes that confidence?  Clutch?  Hxll to the naw!  No DC sweats being able to stop Boyd.  You trot him out at WR2 against the Ravens and Harbaugh will laugh and tell Marlon Humphrey to follow him everywhere and erase his sorry xss like he used to before we got Tee and Chase. 

The only reason I can see anyone wanting Boyd back next year is they bought his jersey and are self-conscious about being "that guy" sporting a non-current player's jersey 

How did you know ?         Now I got to shell out the little extra cash I have for a different player's Jersey.



.

(01-23-2024, 02:22 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Dude's coming off of a career year, and he has a Superbowl ring.  For a guy with only 2 starts in 5 years, he showed that he can be relied upon to move the sticks.  21 1st downs on 39 catches this year.  I don't see him as TE1, but I do think that he's earned a shot to compete.

That is pretty much my point, Hudson finally got a shot and if he had played even 600 snaps, he would have probably finished top 8 to 10 in yards, I don;t think we should drop too much on Fant, three years 30 million is not worth it for him, if a team friendly contract gets him fine but i rather look at draft 3/4 round and sign Hudson, use the difference in other areas such as RT, DT and RB (especially if we let Mixon go)

(01-23-2024, 03:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Then why disagree with me when I was disagreeing with Essex who considers himself a believer that Hudson is our answer at TE? If Hudson could compete against a signed veteran for TE1, then we're admitting we signed a terrible veteran and just wasted money. No Irv Smith Jr part 2s, please. I don't want our starting TE to be the 5th best TE in the division with a healthy gap between them and 4th.

I don't hate Hudson or Sample on the roster for depth. Key word being or. I don't like having both because then you've just nearly recreated the 2023 TE room as you're only likely going to have 3 guys active on gameday and you're likely not going to have a guy you paid in FA (both of them are FAs) a healthy scratch. I want some roster churn at the position to make it actually look different. Give me a veteran with proven production and a rookie with potential both along with one of those two guys.

I don;t believe Fant is worth projecting 3 year 27 to 30 million, what Hudson did once he started getting real snaps and finally getting a true chance was good enough to sign him and compete next year for Starting TE and I prefer to look at draft over Fant at that price... now if we can sign him for 2 year 12 to 16 million possible.. i just don't see the production from him of late to warrant a bigger contract. I prefer Hunter Henry i think we can get him for a better price

(01-23-2024, 08:53 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I don;t believe Fant is worth projecting 3 year 27 to 30 million, what Hudson did once he started getting real snaps and finally getting a true chance was good enough to sign him and compete next year for Starting TE and I prefer to look at draft over Fant at that price... now if we can sign him for 2 year 12 to 16 million possible.. i just don't see the production from him of late to warrant a bigger contract.  I prefer Hunter Henry i think we can get him for a better price

Believing in Hudson as a TE 1 is the line of thinking would have kept Auden Tate as a starter in 2020 rather than drafting Tee Higgins.

Before Geno Smith was his QB and he was stuck behind DK Metcalf, Tyler Lockett, and this year Jaxon Smith-Njigba, Fant had back-to-back 670 yard seasons... that said, Fant isn't even my preferred TE target this FA. I want Dalton Schultz as he's both a solid blocker and a good receiver. I would also like Hunter Henry on a 1-year deal if we're not going to spend a draft pick on a TE since apparently this draft isn't great for it to push drafting one to 2025.

(01-23-2024, 09:29 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Believing in Hudson as a TE 1 is the line of thinking would have kept Auden Tate as a starter in 2020 rather than drafting Tee Higgins.

Before Geno Smith was his QB and he was stuck behind DK Metcalf, Tyler Lockett, and this year Jaxon Smith-Njigba, Fant had back-to-back 670 yard seasons... that said, Fant isn't even my preferred TE target this FA. I want Dalton Schultz as he's both a solid blocker and a good receiver. I would also like Hunter Henry on a 1-year deal if we're not going to spend a draft pick on a TE since apparently this draft isn't great for it to push drafting one to 2025.

I disagree on Hudson and you do understand in Hudson 1st real opportunity he would have topped Fants best year given the snaps. I did not put Schultz down since I think he will be resigned but I don't think Henry will

(01-23-2024, 09:48 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I disagree on Hudson and you do understand in Hudson 1st real opportunity he would have topped Fants best year given the snaps. I did not put Schultz down since I think he will be resigned but I don't think Henry will

I understand what you're saying, but that's not how that works. That's never been how that works. If Hudson was given more snaps, he'd have to actually block a lot more. Hudson only had 26 blocking snaps out of his 246 heading into the final week, and only 2 of them were passing block snaps. Meanwhile Drew Sample was blocking on 272 of his 450 snaps. If he wants those snaps, he has to take those blocks.

It's the same reason why BJ Hill didn't become a 9-10 sack DT like Geno Atkins going from 47% of the defensive snaps in 2021 to >70% each of the last two years. Being a starter and getting more snaps means you also need to do more that doesn't give you opportunities for stats, and tire yourself out more. For Hill that meant playing more run defense.

Not to mention without Higgins and Boyd around, he'd get a whole lot more attention on him in coverage moving from the 5th target in the passing game to the 2nd or 3rd at lowest on top of having to actually be a proper blocker.

(01-23-2024, 10:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not to mention without Higgins and Boyd around, he'd get a whole lot more attention on him in coverage moving from the 5th target in the passing game to the 2nd or 3rd at lowest on top of having to actually be a proper blocker.

Yep. That’s the main thing here, we need to start actually planning for the post-Tee and Boyd offense. Absolutely need a legit #1 TE.

(01-20-2024, 04:23 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: No idea...but what I do think is that Noah Fant will replace Boyd as part of the big 3 in 2024. 

In an offense that doesn’t feature a tight end. Why? Boyd needs to stay put in the slot. Where he’s best. Sign rant but not as a big 3 can’t see that happening with the way our O is ran. May change tho now with Callahan gone

(01-24-2024, 05:01 PM)JoeyB2023 Wrote: In an offense that doesn’t feature a tight end.  Why?  Boyd needs to stay put in the slot.  Where he’s best.  Sign rant but not as a big 3 can’t see that happening with the way our O is ran.  May change tho now with Callahan gone

Boyd is slow and his time is done.  Fant can easily be worked in as a Top 3 production provider.  He is actually very athletic.

(01-24-2024, 05:14 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Boyd is slow and his time is done.  Fant can easily be worked in as a Top 3 production provider.  He is actually very athletic.

I’m very aware of the talent can’t brings slots don’t need to be fast the need to quick and smart find soft spots and sit boyd is still one of the best in the slot. Bengals draft WRs better than anyone. Target one in the second like they always do. U Will hVe chase a stud rookie Tyler boyd Charlie jones with burrow. I’m all for bringing in fant but not as a replacement for boyd.